How Many Watts Available for Short Peak dB? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 44 Old 02-09-2012, 12:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

Clipping the amp hard enough to kill the tweeters IS overdriving the speaker. Too much power to tweeters kills them, not the shape of the wave they receive.

OK, I meant it's less harmful to send more clean signal watts than the speaker's continuous rating, than it is to overdrive the speaker with the use of too-weak-amp resulting in clipped signals.
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post #32 of 44 Old 02-09-2012, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

OK, I meant it's less harmful to send more clean signal watts than the speaker's continuous rating, than it is to overdrive the speaker with the use of too-weak-amp resulting in clipped signals.

It's really a minor point, but here: When you clip an amp or any signal you generate harmonics (a square wave (fully clipped) can be defined as the fundamental plus a mathematically derived series of harmonics). So the harmonics in the highs are adding content to the high end. Sort of like turning up the treble by 6 or 10 dB (four to ten times the power). It's the extra power going into the tweeter, overpowering it, that kills it.

To put it another way, say running clean an amp is putting out 100 watts, the woofer sees maybe 80 watts and the tweeter 20 watts. Let's say you would blow the tweeter by turning up to 200 clean watts, so the woofer was handling 160 watts and the tweeter blowing at 40 watts. If I clip the signal instead, and if all the harmonics from the clipping went to the tweeter, the amp could be putting out 120 total watts, with 80 to woofer and 40 to tweeter, killing the tweeter.

It's the too much power that kills the tweeter, not the fact that the signal is clipped. You could play square waves into your speaker all day and never hurt it as long as power to the tweeter does not exceed it's (in this case long-term) power handling capability.

In short if X watts to the tweeter from a clipped signal will kill the tweeter, the same X watts to the tweeter of clean signal will kill it.

And BTW, FWIW, the best sounding PA speakers I ever had were mid level JBLs, and their owner's manual recommended that you have twice the clean power that they were rated for on a continuous basis.
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post #33 of 44 Old 02-09-2012, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

It's really a minor point, but here: When you clip an amp or any signal you generate harmonics (a square wave (fully clipped) can be defined as the fundamental plus a mathematically derived series of harmonics). So the harmonics in the highs are adding content to the high end. Sort of like turning up the treble by 6 or 10 dB (four to ten times the power). It's the extra power going into the tweeter, overpowering it, that kills it.

Another theory is that the tweeter dies, not from harmonics from a clipped waveform, but because clipping results in higher average levels. These higher levels cause more power to tweeter than it can handle.

I have seen both theories expressed in various online articles.

The end result, of course, is the same. Clipping, with a sufficiently powerful amp can damage your speakers, especially the tweeters.

They can only dissapate so much heat before they fail.

Note that it's high average power which kills them...a very short term overload should not hurt them...their usual mode of a failure is death from excess heat.

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post #34 of 44 Old 02-10-2012, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

Theory being:
  • Nowadays, amplifier watts are cheaper than speaker sensitivity
  • It's less harmful to over-drive the speaker than it is to drive the amp into clipping and burning out tweeters
  • Program Power is more indicative of a typical music signal.
  • And I imagine that for handling peaks, the transformer and caps can provide some of the additioal power needed for transients.

The points on clipping were well addressed, and your points on program power make sense in their context. The claim about capacitors/transformers (???) magically handling "additional power for transients" was already talked about back on page 1. That isn't true. You keep re-introducing the topic though.

There was a thread a while back about PA vs consumer speakers, and the primary contention was that consumer speakers are usually over-spec'd in terms of their power handling (people like big numbers on the boxes!), but even if they weren't, a few hundred watts is the top shelf. You aren't going to gain a whole lot having your 100W speakers fed by a 200W amplifier, instead of a 100W amplifier - especially when you're never driving the system to full power anyways. With a PA system where you may see 500 or 5000W on a single channel, and you may easily drive the thing to a quarter or half capacity in normal usage, having the amplifiers over-bought and over-built isn't such a bad idea. Especially if your cabinets can handle that extra bump every now and then.
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post #35 of 44 Old 02-10-2012, 09:15 PM
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Would not surprise me at all if there's a lot of speakers out there who's ratings are meaningless for any real purpose.

I do wonder though, if some speakers don't handle high power peaks very well. I wonder that because I am not impressed with my B&W speakers on some movie scenes. The high end is harsh...annoying.

Could be my ears, or my room. I guess I won't know until I try a different speaker which performs better.

Music sound pretty good though. So I don't know what the issue is.

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post #36 of 44 Old 02-10-2012, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

Would not surprise me at all if there's a lot of speakers out there who's ratings are meaningless for any real purpose.

I do wonder though, if some speakers don't handle high power peaks very well. I wonder that because I am not impressed with my B&W speakers on some movie scenes. The high end is harsh...annoying.

Could be my ears, or my room. I guess I won't know until I try a different speaker which performs better.

Music sound pretty good though. So I don't know what the issue is.

Could be the sound engineers on certain movies did a horrible job I noticed
this on a couple like Real Steel.
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post #37 of 44 Old 02-10-2012, 11:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walbert View Post

The points on clipping were well addressed, and your points on program power make sense in their context. The claim about capacitors/transformers (???) magically handling "additional power for transients" was already talked about back on page 1. That isn't true. You keep re-introducing the topic though.

I guess the topic wasn't put to bed for me.

Obviously for you there's not much middle ground, when you say things like:
Quote:


That's also part of my point. If your current 100W/ch amplifier isn't hacking it, 150W will not do it, 200W might do it, but 1000W is where you'd need to look "next."

Really? If a well-built 100w receiver isn't hacking it, one MIGHT be better served by a 200w XPA-3, but really one should jump to a 1000w amp? Seems a little extreme, to me.

A few dB of compression doesn't sound like much to you, but as I'm sure you know, when you approach the limits of things like amps, the distortion goes up IMMENSELY. Every little increase in volume shows massive rises in the THD. So if one is on the threshold, and only needs a few more dB, it seems like 3dB from an XPA-3, or 6dB from a 400wpc amp would be a big improvement.

Other articles / marketing, like Meyer Sound suggested there's more to peak handling than just pick the RMS rating that matches your desired peak needs:
Quote:


Meyer Sound's research has found that, in order to reproduce music without compressing the signal, the power amplifier should be capable of maintaining reproduction of a sine wave at full amplitude (i.e. where the sine wave's peak amplitude reaches the maximum available voltage swing without clipping) into its intended load for at least 500 milliseconds. Meyer Sound refers to the average power during this 500 milliseconds astrue burst power. Peak power output should last at least 100 milliseconds in order to be useful for music reproduction. All Meyer Sound self-powered loudspeakers meet this criterion, and this rating will be included on data sheets for these products. Up until now, Meyer Sound has not published specifications relating to the peak power of this burst.

Here's an article at Enjoy the Music that talks more about peak handling: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin...708/index.html.

Regarding capacitors and how few watts they might yield, I agree that the key is in the short amount of time involved. What might be 30 watts for 1 second might be much more for 100ms. Add the transformer to that, and we might be realistically talking about a lot more power for a short duration.

I think the negative attitude towards peak power handling was due to the abuses of not qualifying specifications. And the FTC requirement enforcing a little bit of order, and that being RMS values. That doesn't invalidate other considerations. Conversely, the FTC could've mandated peak burst power for 500ms @ < 1% THD 20-20kHz, and then all the RMS numbers could be all over the place and meaningless, as in the car audio world.

I'm concentrating more on peaks, because I feel there's a disconnect between the realities of the conditions of how we stress amps, versus how we're spec'ing and choosing them.

It seems like there's a difference between two amps that might have the same fully qualified RMS power rating, but one provides more instantaneous voltage for up to 1 second. I'd rather have the latter one, all other things being equal.

I agree that one shouldn't just hope that one will get 1dB to 3dB of headroom for peaks from a given amp. Ideally, one would be able to know which was which.

Quote:


You aren't going to gain a whole lot having your 100W speakers fed by a 200W amplifier, instead of a 100W amplifier - especially when you're never driving the system to full power anyways.

Are you saying you have trouble imagining a situation where one might need another 100w? I'd say that would come up when someone needs 3dB. If this is not likely, then there are going to be a lot of Emotiva amp buyers who wasted their money!
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post #38 of 44 Old 02-11-2012, 12:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

Would not surprise me at all if there's a lot of speakers out there who's ratings are meaningless for any real purpose.

I do wonder though, if some speakers don't handle high power peaks very well.

The Audioholics article about speaker power ratings talked about that, and how he could design a test to make a speaker die with very little power, or the same speaker last through massive power.

I asked about peak watt handling and compression here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1392843

In it I link to a spreadsheet I made showing some woofers and speakers and the manufacturer specs on compression: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...El2eEZSblNreEE

Was surprising that for continuous signals at least, 1/10 power still yielded compression. At full rated power: 3 to 4 db of compression.

However, peaks should not suffer from thermal compressing due to the cooldown between peaks.

I would love to see speaker burst tone tests, not just for SPL but for distortion.
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post #39 of 44 Old 02-11-2012, 12:42 AM
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just to add my .02 in very simple terms

A well designed power supply will not ripple (well maybe some miniscule amount like .001V) even when driven to rated load and held there. Why? because there are voltage regulators that will hold that voltage steady at that load that are backed up by some pretty beefy caps, transformer and rectifier




an amplifier cannot go above its line voltage so once it gets there it clips so once it does no more power is available to use

more here

http://www.circuitstoday.com/150-watt-amplifier-circuit

http://www.eidusa.com/Electronics_Voltage_Regulator.htm

while you can suck more current from the PSU for a short time, it's not really advised as you will end up cooking some very expensive parts like power resistors and transistors

Strong or weak in the end we are all dead
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post #40 of 44 Old 02-13-2012, 12:51 AM - Thread Starter
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OK, so regulated power supplies don't provide the peak power as calculated at the max +/- voltage peaks, it sounds like?

When companies like Crown talk about how they provide more burst power than others' amps, I'm not sure what they're referring to as their engineering advantages. They show how the voltage-current plots can be different for different amps, and how theirs covers a wider range of voltage and current.

Yorkville mentions burst power for their amps, as something different than the +3dB of what a peak power measurement would be. So, like +1.5dB or so.

Regarding caps: I'm still curious how the math works out when you see that the caps will provide 30 watts over a second. Is it as simple as 300 watts for 100 ms?

Regarding the time of peaks: There's an AES paper that says rather than the 20ms burst used in the current tests, an 80-200ms burst is more appropriate, after research has shown that's a more typical duration of peaks.
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post #41 of 44 Old 02-15-2012, 12:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

I guess the topic wasn't put to bed for me.

Welcome to AVS!

Quote:


Are you saying you have trouble imagining a situation where one might need another 100w? I'd say that would come up when someone needs 3dB. If this is not likely, then there are going to be a lot of Emotiva amp buyers who wasted their money!

I did read your whole post; don't want to give you the idea I didn't (I think this thread is quite interesting).

And yes, I do have trouble imagining such a situation - 3 dB is not "easy" to perceive in all situations. There was a thread in theory not too long ago that had an example (similar to Ethan Winer's distortion examples) about 1 dB, 3 dB, and 10 dB differences. 3 dB is clearly in that "we can argue over it" range while 10 dB is clearly in the "assuming your hearing is normal you should notice this easily" range. And I don't mean to sound like a goldenear here - this observation is reflected by a number of sources (like here: http://www.physics.mcgill.ca/~guymoo.../lecture11.pdf)

Regarding the Emotiva amplifier question - Emotiva's amplifiers are generally fairly sensitive and will get "louder" than many other products at the same "level" from whatever preamp - this impresses a lot of users. There's a great AudioKarma thread on this notion:
http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=58829


Indeed, lots of users love having their processor/AVR at something like -70 dB and having a listenable level - it implies lots of additional headroom. In reality, they could be approaching the clipping point for the amplifier if the preamp can run fairly hot and the amp is fairly sensitive. And remember that not all preamps are created equal; dial-values can't be compared (not even between the same model in different rooms post-calibration). This doesn't stop many people from making such claims or enjoying such situations.

And this is not a direct attack on Emotiva - it's just a specific example. I think that in general, people tend to over-buy in terms of amplifier output capability (regardless of if we're talking about Emotiva, or Parasound, or NAD, or whatever). I would actually say this correlates fairly well with the ridiculous prices for power amplifiers anymore - honestly $1000+ for 2x125wpc is just a slap in the face (and I do correlate this with other areas of audio equipment that see similar gouging and sell on the whole "how it sounds" philosophy). As an example of over-buying; I've seen quite a few threads where owners of high sensitivity speakers are going after near kW levels of power per channel, which just strikes me as silly. Not only will the extra capacity never actually be called upon (well, it may, but I doubt it), but the resources spent on additional amplification could be put elsewhere (for potentially more gain). Emotiva is interesting here as well, because they don't always align with more "normal" pricing schemes - that said, they haven't produced anything like the UPA line in a while (something that represented a great value).

As far as 200W over 100W being pointless - again, we're only talking 3 dB. What kind of situation would that make the difference between "life and death" can you imagine? It's usually just unused extra performance (ignoring the sensitivity mismatch scenario); that's waste by another name. However, 1kW will give you a 10 dB jump, and represents a big enough "step" to actually stir things up. Will probably blow most consumer speakers apart though. And yes, I do get that THD increases as you approach the output limits of the amplifier - my contention is that your "burst power" demands are usually within the output limits, not beyond them, hence the "driven without clipping" qualifier. In other words, for your typical home environment where a few wpc into normal-ish speakers is going to get fairly loud, and 100W is probably at or beyond your peak handling - what's another 3 dB on top of that?

Of course if you have a line on incredibly powerful amplifiers for almost nothing, what's to lose? That usually isn't the case though.
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post #42 of 44 Old 02-17-2012, 09:55 AM
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IMO, I think a doubling in power matters when it's more than a doubling in power. What do I mean?

I mean that specs can't possibly tell the whole story due to how some multi-channel amps and receivers are measured.

Also, bench tests are done into 8 ohm dummy loads. That does not tell us the whole story. What the amp does when connected to speakers?

For these reasons, I suspect (a guess) that a doubling of power may give you a better performance than expected in some cases. No, I don't have proof, in case someone wanted to challange me - I can't back up my theory with hard evidence.

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post #43 of 44 Old 02-17-2012, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walbert View Post


Welcome to AVS!

I did read your whole post; don't want to give you the idea I didn't (I think this thread is quite interesting).

And yes, I do have trouble imagining such a situation - 3 dB is not "easy" to perceive in all situations. There was a thread in theory not too long ago that had an example (similar to Ethan Winer's distortion examples) about 1 dB, 3 dB, and 10 dB differences. 3 dB is clearly in that "we can argue over it" range while 10 dB is clearly in the "assuming your hearing is normal you should notice this easily" range. And I don't mean to sound like a goldenear here - this observation is reflected by a number of sources (like here: http://www.physics.mcgill.ca/~guymoo.../lecture11.pdf)

Regarding the Emotiva amplifier question - Emotiva's amplifiers are generally fairly sensitive and will get "louder" than many other products at the same "level" from whatever preamp - this impresses a lot of users. There's a great AudioKarma thread on this notion:
http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=58829

Indeed, lots of users love having their processor/AVR at something like -70 dB and having a listenable level - it implies lots of additional headroom. In reality, they could be approaching the clipping point for the amplifier if the preamp can run fairly hot and the amp is fairly sensitive. And remember that not all preamps are created equal; dial-values can't be compared (not even between the same model in different rooms post-calibration). This doesn't stop many people from making such claims or enjoying such situations.

And this is not a direct attack on Emotiva - it's just a specific example. I think that in general, people tend to over-buy in terms of amplifier output capability (regardless of if we're talking about Emotiva, or Parasound, or NAD, or whatever). I would actually say this correlates fairly well with the ridiculous prices for power amplifiers anymore - honestly $1000+ for 2x125wpc is just a slap in the face (and I do correlate this with other areas of audio equipment that see similar gouging and sell on the whole "how it sounds" philosophy). As an example of over-buying; I've seen quite a few threads where owners of high sensitivity speakers are going after near kW levels of power per channel, which just strikes me as silly. Not only will the extra capacity never actually be called upon (well, it may, but I doubt it), but the resources spent on additional amplification could be put elsewhere (for potentially more gain). Emotiva is interesting here as well, because they don't always align with more "normal" pricing schemes - that said, they haven't produced anything like the UPA line in a while (something that represented a great value).

As far as 200W over 100W being pointless - again, we're only talking 3 dB. What kind of situation would that make the difference between "life and death" can you imagine? It's usually just unused extra performance (ignoring the sensitivity mismatch scenario); that's waste by another name. However, 1kW will give you a 10 dB jump, and represents a big enough "step" to actually stir things up. Will probably blow most consumer speakers apart though. And yes, I do get that THD increases as you approach the output limits of the amplifier - my contention is that your "burst power" demands are usually within the output limits, not beyond them, hence the "driven without clipping" qualifier. In other words, for your typical home environment where a few wpc into normal-ish speakers is going to get fairly loud, and 100W is probably at or beyond your peak handling - what's another 3 dB on top of that?

Of course if you have a line on incredibly powerful amplifiers for almost nothing, what's to lose? That usually isn't the case though.

I 10000% agree with this post.

Very recently I switched to a nice mcintosh amp. It's the normal Mac 300/channel meters etc.

At a LOUD condition, I'm using AT PEAKS at most 20-30 watts. In terms of continous power maybe 1-2 watts. And that's a serious no BS number. At times during music it dips into millionths of watts; that's all.

The digferences between a 100 watt amp and a 300 watt amp will almost never show. Short term peaks are usually easily handled by any amp past their continous power rating.

BTW, my speakers are CM9s, and they only have an 89dB sensitivity.
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post #44 of 44 Old 02-18-2012, 09:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by TVMAN1991 View Post

I 10000% agree with this post.

Very recently I switched to a nice mcintosh amp. It's the normal Mac 300/channel meters etc.

At a LOUD condition, I'm using AT PEAKS at most 20-30 watts. In terms of continous power maybe 1-2 watts. And that's a serious no BS number. At times during music it dips into millionths of watts; that's all.

The digferences between a 100 watt amp and a 300 watt amp will almost never show. Short term peaks are usually easily handled by any amp past their continous power rating.

BTW, my speakers are CM9s, and they only have an 89dB sensitivity.

I also saw where you posted about wattage in small-med rooms.

Your statement doesn't mean much, since you don't specify what "LOUD" means. For some people, that's average music levels at 70dB. For others, it's 80dB (which requires 10x the power). For highly dynamic music, or film sound tracks, you might listen at a lower level, but need to handle huge peaks. For more compressed music, it might be "loud" at 80-90dB and only have 3dB peaks. And then "LOUD" might be a higher volume, but your speakers are distorting, so it sounds harsh, so you say "LOUD." While you may object, a speaker's thermal compression (distortion) starts at around 1/5 its RMS power handling, which for you would be 40 watts.

As was mentioned in the other thread, it's been often mentioned that those meters can resolve the short instantaneous peaks, like only 10ms long.

Can you use an SPL meter to say the volume really was? Or if not, is your receiver such that 0dB would be reference level, -10dB would be -10dBFS (10dB below reference level), etc.?

Your speakers are 89dB, but probably in-room, so 86dB anechoic.
If your program material was averaging 2 watts, that's 81dB. If we're talking films, a potential 20dB peak means 200 watts, and that's still 4dB under reference level.

So, in conclusion, if you agree with many of the statements in this thread that say "just buy an amp whose RMS rating handles what your peaks will be," you could say:
  • For people in a small to medium room, with a medium sensitivity speaker (86dB) listening at lower than -10dBfs, you probably only need a 50w amp.
  • For those people listening at reference level, you need a 500w amp.

If you subscribe to the theory or practice where your amp can handle up to 200ms of burst power that's twice the RMS rating, then you could say,
  • Those people listening lower than -10dBfs probably only need a 25w amp.
  • Those listening at reference level need a 250w amp.

Of course, those with 3dB less sensitivity (eg where the in-room sensitivity says 86dB) will need TWICE the amp you're talking about. Those with twice your sensitivity would need half the amp, etc.

So, depending on how you are listening, you either have way more amp than you need, or you have just enough.
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