A little disappointed with todays receivers - Page 3 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #61 of 79 Old 01-24-2012, 02:06 PM
AVS Special Member
 
YeuEmMaiMai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,076
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

Years ago, in the 1960s, outrageous power specs having nothing to do with reality were the norm in stereo equipment, so they (the FTC) required that a standard power test be done at 8 ohms on both channels and published.

Now we have 5 and 7 channel receivers, and the only requirement is the same 2-channel test.

The law should require 7-channel receivers to publish and advertise only the power they actually put out to all seven channels at once at 1% or less distortion. Until that happens, we have only the tests done by Home Theater to tell us how much of a rip-off most of this junk really is, and who are the ones screwing us the hardest.

Let the following three examples illustrate the good, the fair, and the ugly:

The GOOD;

Cambridge 650R receiver: Specified; 100 watts per channel with ALL SEVEN CHANNELS DRIVEN!! (120 watts for 2 channels driven). $1600 * * Bravo; one honest manufacturer.

The FAIR;

Denon AVR-2311CI receiver; 75 watts per channel with all seven channels driven (105 watts for 2 channels driven). $600


The UGLY!:

Anthem MRX -700 receiver; 53 watts per channel with all seven channels driven (110 watts for 2 channels driven. ** $2000 **!!!!!!
Did I hear the word RIP-OFF in the crowd there? You betcha, Charley!

There are at least a dozen receivers that sell for under $700 that deliver more power to all seven channels than the $2000 Anthem MRX-700. If that isn't the worst trashing of their customers I have ever seen, then it sure comes close. If I spent $2000 for that Anthem and then learned that it had the power supply of a typical $500 or less receiver, I would be seriously enraged! I would feel like a guy who bought a Ferrari and found out it had a 56-horsepower engine.

This outrageous example should get Anthem the official 2011 SCREW THE CONSUMER award.

Most of the rest fall in the BAD category; too many (and too nauseating) to mention!

Caveat emptor!

And by the way...anyone can add some metal and make a receiver heavier; check the actual power output before you buy, not the weight!

I have a Sony SACD player that weighs 54 pounds; power output zero (SCD-777ES).

News Flash...: Pioneer has announced that their 2012 Elite line of receivers will have class D switching amplifiers. Those will definitely be much lighter than a normal class AB amplifier, so throw away your scale.

uhm the law should require nothing other than passing a safety standard. To have government regulate stuff is bad.......the industry it's self must come up with a standard...

Strong or weak in the end we are all dead
YeuEmMaiMai is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #62 of 79 Old 01-24-2012, 02:12 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
ccotenj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: the toxic waste dumps of new jersey
Posts: 21,915
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by oztech View Post

I look for more mfg.'s to go the class d route because of cost and weight and the fact that when they did make a great class a/b amp people moaned about the heat and recommended clearance around the receiver.

y'know... i thought the same thing when pio came out with the sc... i figured other cem's would follow and then class d would begin to trickle down to lower units...

still haven't seen it yet, so i'm guessing the a/b solutions are still cheaper to implement...

besides, there's a vocal group who decries the usage of anything but a/b (or even better to them, pure class a space heaters )...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

ccotenj is offline  
post #63 of 79 Old 01-24-2012, 02:41 PM
Okv
Member
 
Okv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Aalesund, Norway
Posts: 165
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 27 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

Okv, I found your comments interesting. As I am interested in amp designs, could you elaborate on what you felt could be improved in the amp stage based on the service manual you looked at?

Did you feel the input stage, the voltage amp stage or the output stage was deficient? And it what way?

The whole design is clearly implemented as simple as possible, presumably to keep cost and use of space down.

Let's find this schematic.. yes, a 100W (approx.) amp made using 9 transistors.
This circuit is actually also a bit more exotic than the simplest one I saw.

The input stage is a single differential, which feeds a second differential, this is the voltage gain stage.
The use of a differential stage here is what makes it more "exotic", they could have used only one transistor here.
The differential stage may be a better choice because it may be possible to achieve better linearity.
The pre-driver and driver stage does not exist, only a darlington complementary output.

It is not symmetric (using complementary transistors in all stages), does not have any isolation between the U-stage and the output stage, it is not dc-coupled, does not use dc-servos, no cascode, and the input stage and the U-stage runs on the main psu rails as far as I can see.

So, it is simple, but that does not necessarily mean it is so bad that it is useless.

Nelson Pass has made many minimalist designs using very few transistors, and they all have reputation for outstanding good sound.
In audio design it is often a goal to make it so simple as possible, because it may be easier to control the nonlinearities.

It is also the specific implementation of this circuit topology that determines this particular amplifiers performance.
I am sure they have used lots of hours to fine-tune this circuit, so that the end result is as good as it can be.

It is also debated whether different amplifiers actually sound any different, as long as they have a flat frequency response and reasonably low distortion.

What I would suspect first with this design is lacking capability to run more difficult loads, such as speakers with an impedance curve that goes rather low in some frequency range.
Because when the amplifier can not deliver more current, it will clip the signal, with excessive distortion as a consequence, and that will be clearly audible.

I would not try to improve this design.
Changing parts of the circuit will most likely cause unpredictable and undesired results.
I am quite sure the designers have done a great job, the constraints given.

I would rather replace it with a totally new design.
And that is what people actually do when they use external power stages.
Okv is offline  
post #64 of 79 Old 01-24-2012, 03:07 PM
AVS Special Member
 
oztech's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Houston Texas
Posts: 7,660
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

y'know... i thought the same thing when pio came out with the sc... i figured other cem's would follow and then class d would begin to trickle down to lower units...

still haven't seen it yet, so i'm guessing the a/b solutions are still cheaper to implement...

besides, there's a vocal group who decries the usage of anything but a/b (or even better to them, pure class a space heaters )...

I guess the A/B versus Digital will be CD versus Vinyl delima.
The future is digital and I have embraced it with open arms.
oztech is online now  
post #65 of 79 Old 01-24-2012, 05:19 PM
Senior Member
 
weedeater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Sterling, VA
Posts: 401
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 19
From a historical perspective, the Federal Trade Commission got involved many years ago because manufacturers were making wild claims about power output of amplifiers and receivers. Manufacturers still do it today for things like car stereo amps since they were not covered by the rules (didn't exist at the time). The FTC basically said that if you are going to make a claim in the advertising that your amp had so much power, then that power had to be measured the same way and specified the same way in the advertising (and manuals). That way the consumer could make proper comparisons from one model to another.

I've seen ads for a 100w amp that were 100w into 1ohm at 1kHz with 10% THD in the small print. I've seen another 100w amp that was 100w into 4ohm from 20Hz to 22kHz +-1db with 0.01% THD. Cost a bit more but at least one could tell that this one wasn't going to sound like crap when you turned it up.
weedeater is online now  
post #66 of 79 Old 01-24-2012, 05:24 PM
Advanced Member
 
Osamede's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 569
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by YeuEmMaiMai View Post

uhm the law should require nothing other than passing a safety standard. To have government regulate stuff is bad.......the industry it's self must come up with a standard...

No point in forcing this problem through the nail eye some sort of ideological litmus test and then.....suddenly stopping halfway.

Efficient markets require efficient flow of information aka truth in advertising. Particularly so when you have a small handfull of technical companies selling opaque technology to ordinary consumers.

Clearly the market regulator's role must include setting advertising standards. Otherwise said market attracts charlatans and will tend not to reward producers of high quality product. Which benefits no one - neither the consumer nor the manufacturers. And hey, that's exactly what is going on in this market. Waiting for the industry to self-regulate? Are you joking? Said industry is busy consuming itself.

It's all going to crap - precisely because the regulator is AWOL.
Osamede is offline  
post #67 of 79 Old 01-25-2012, 07:20 AM
Senior Member
 
EnjoyingMyRide's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 201
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 15
I agree with everyone's concerns on manufacturers stated power output stats. While probably 100% true they are 100% misleading and aimed at snagging the under informed consumer. Always read the fine print & do your homework before you fork over your hard earned money on a product!

Anyway that said, I too have wondered how could an AV receiver weighing in at 24# have what it takes to drive speakers through the full spectrum from 20 Hz - 20 kHz? In my mind, compromises in sound quality must have been made.

I was very happy with my last 2 AV receivers, Denon 4802 & NAD 773 (still have). Both are quite robust and I enjoyed their sound quality, but I thought I wanted a bit more power in my system. I was also tired of the chasing the ever changing codecs. I was able to purchase an AudioControl Pantages amp (customer return) below cost, I picked up a display model processor. Last year I purchased the OPO BDP-95 & run analog out to the processor, letting the the OPPO do the work, awesome sound!

Sorry, kind of long winded but while the codecs are changing rapidly amplifier technology does so much slower. I found an amp that I can live with both sound & $, the other parts can then be replaced if I want. My processor is old by technology standards but it sounds great and has (2) 7.1 inputs and everything else I need. I am a happy old dog!

Steve
EnjoyingMyRide is offline  
post #68 of 79 Old 01-25-2012, 07:25 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
ccotenj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: the toxic waste dumps of new jersey
Posts: 21,915
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by EnjoyingMyRide View Post

Anyway that said, I too have wondered how could an AV receiver weighing in at 24# have what it takes to drive speakers through the full spectrum from 20 Hz - 20 kHz? In my mind, compromises in sound quality must have been made.

considering that there are VERY few speakers that can reproduce that spectrum, that would be irrelevant...

and if someone does have speakers that will do that, i think it's unlikely they are considering a low to middle end avr...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

ccotenj is offline  
post #69 of 79 Old 01-25-2012, 08:01 AM
AVS Special Member
 
oztech's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Houston Texas
Posts: 7,660
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

considering that there are VERY few speakers that can reproduce that spectrum, that would be irrelevant...

and if someone does have speakers that will do that, i think it's unlikely they are considering a low to middle end avr...

I agree completely then it most definitely would require separates and probably an amp capable of delivering at least 500 watts per channel most of those few speakers that could span that were 86ddb 1w/1m and dipped down to 2 to 3 ohms around 100 Hz in impedance and still rolled off a couple of db at 20 Hz.
oztech is online now  
post #70 of 79 Old 01-25-2012, 08:03 AM
Advanced Member
 
stash64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Packer country
Posts: 858
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

considering that there are VERY few speakers that can reproduce that spectrum, that would be irrelevant...

and if someone does have speakers that will do that, i think it's unlikely they are considering a low to middle end avr...

The in-between stuff is relevant, and there is a difference in what most external amps can deliver throughout the frequency range versus almost any AVR these days. I think that was his point, based on his own experience.

Most people are probably happy enough with their AVR performance and, if they never try an external amp, they will likely not know what they are missing. Ignorance is bliss, as they say.

Sean
stash64 is offline  
post #71 of 79 Old 01-25-2012, 08:08 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
ccotenj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: the toxic waste dumps of new jersey
Posts: 21,915
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 89
^^^

i'm not speaking from an "ignorance is bliss" position...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

ccotenj is offline  
post #72 of 79 Old 01-25-2012, 08:22 AM
AVS Special Member
 
oztech's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Houston Texas
Posts: 7,660
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 93
Sometimes we perceive what we choose to believe whether fact supports it or not I used to belong to the separates are always better crowd but since then I don.t play at reference levels anymore do to age and I want to keep my hearing. Todays upper end receivers can deliever a clean and distortion free sound as long as you don't try to play rock concert levels in which case you might want to look for that amp and a local audiologist.
oztech is online now  
post #73 of 79 Old 01-27-2012, 03:52 PM
Advanced Member
 
stash64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Packer country
Posts: 858
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by oztech View Post

I used to belong to the separates are always better crowd but since then I don.t play at reference levels anymore do to age and I want to keep my hearing. Todays upper end receivers can deliever a clean and distortion free sound as long as you don't try to play rock concert levels in which case you might want to look for that amp and a local audiologist.

I agree that listening at reference level at almost any age is a bit crazy, but my point about the improved dynamics with an external amp really has nothing to do with how loud one plays. I think anyone with full range speakers (not those baseball sized satellites) would benefit from an external amp.

The best analogy would be acceleration (ie dynamics) vs speed (ie volume). Most cars can hit 100 mph these days but it's how you get there that makes things exciting. An external amp will have better control and will be more responsive troughout the dB range, like comparing the dynamics of a Corvette (external amp) to a Cavalier (typical AVR). Bottom line, if you have made a significant investment in speakers, why would you short change them with a wimpy AVR ? I think a good rule of thumb is that you should spend about the same for an AVR or pre-amp/external amp combo as you do for your speakers, sub not included.

Sean
stash64 is offline  
post #74 of 79 Old 01-27-2012, 04:03 PM
AVS Special Member
 
markabuckley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,077
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 19
my 59TXi - still weighs a tonne and sounds sublime ... wait a minute ...
markabuckley is offline  
post #75 of 79 Old 01-27-2012, 04:40 PM
AVS Special Member
 
oztech's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Houston Texas
Posts: 7,660
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by stash64 View Post

I agree that listening at reference level at almost any age is a bit crazy, but my point about the improved dynamics with an external amp really has nothing to do with how loud one plays. I think anyone with full range speakers (not those baseball sized satellites) would benefit from an external amp.

The best analogy would be acceleration (ie dynamics) vs speed (ie volume). Most cars can hit 100 mph these days but it's how you get there that makes things exciting. An external amp will have better control and will be more responsive troughout the dB range, like comparing the dynamics of a Corvette (external amp) to a Cavalier (typical AVR). Bottom line, if you have made a significant investment in speakers, why would you short change them with a wimpy AVR ? I think a good rule of thumb is that you should spend about the same for an AVR or pre-amp/external amp combo as you do for your speakers, sub not included.

As I said if you invest in a good quality AVR and played at a reasonable level or at least my ears there was no noticeable difference .
But if I cranked it up yes the story changed the external amp was a lot cleaner.
The amp I had was when Yamaha used big VU meters and it was playing along at somewhere between 5 and 10 watts with dynamics hitting 125 watts and it was loud and that was a 200 watt per channel rig.
So my point is if you have an AVR that can output at least 100wpc into 8 ohms and somewhere close to 200 into 4 ohms full bandwidth with low distortion you will have what 90% of the people want and it will sound great and some of the new digital amps seem to provide that.
Some purists will say the class A/B people don't know what Hi-Fi is and will
not have anything short of pure class A so take your pick.
oztech is online now  
post #76 of 79 Old 01-27-2012, 05:00 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mbw23air's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: KY
Posts: 2,734
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjackkrash View Post


Does the SR 5005 have preouts? I think it does. I noticed Outlaw has a pretty good combo price with a 5 channel Amp and I could use the 5005/5800 combo to start building a system in the bedroom and drop the 5x200 Amp in my main HT area to give my 4311 some more headroom. Hmm. The Denon 5800 has a very solid amp section and I hate to see it just rotting on the shelf.

I also still use a Denon 5800 as I just use a Lumagen XD video processor for the video switching and use the ext-ins for the dts hdma from blu-ray player to Denon. Are the options in the new receivers like the audssey feature worth it to warrant an upgrade in receivers?

Thanks,
Mike

The Mayans were full of sh*t!!!
mbw23air is offline  
post #77 of 79 Old 01-27-2012, 05:08 PM
Advanced Member
 
jjackkrash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 571
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbw23air View Post

I also still use a Denon 5800 as I just use a Lumagen XD video processor for the video switching and use the ext-ins for the dts hdma from blu-ray player to Denon. Are the options in the new receivers like the audssey feature worth it to warrant an upgrade in receivers?

Thanks,
Mike

I was super pissed I had to buy a new receiver just because the plugs changed, and the 5800 is a fantastic piece of equipment, but I will say that the benefit from XT32 is truly remarkable. I thought I would be disappointed taking a step "down" from a 5 series to a 4 series and I was convinced Audyssey was just snake oil until I tried it. I am very happy with the 4311 and it sure is nice just running one cord from everything into the receiver and then one into the TV. The modern GUI is awesome as well.
jjackkrash is offline  
post #78 of 79 Old 01-27-2012, 05:19 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mbw23air's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: KY
Posts: 2,734
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjackkrash View Post


I was super pissed I had to buy a new receiver just because the plugs changed, and the 5800 is a fantastic piece of equipment, but I will say that the benefit from XT32 is truly remarkable. I thought I would be disappointed taking a step "down" from a 5 series to a 4 series and I was convinced Audyssey was just snake oil until I tried it. I am very happy with the 4311 and it sure is nice just running one cord from everything into the receiver and then one into the TV. The modern GUI is awesome as well.

Thanks for your perspective since you have the 5800 and the 4311 as that is the one I would get as the 5802 is just an ungodly price. I'm going to try and wait until I get my tax money before I purchase but it might be hard to pull the trigger as I think I have had the 5800 for 10 years or so and it has always worked flawlessly.

Thanks,
Mike

The Mayans were full of sh*t!!!
mbw23air is offline  
post #79 of 79 Old 01-27-2012, 05:26 PM
Advanced Member
 
jjackkrash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 571
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbw23air View Post

Thanks for your perspective since you have the 5800 and the 4311 as that is the one I would get as the 5802 is just an ungodly price. I'm going to try and wait until I get my tax money before I purchase but it might be hard to pull the trigger as I think I have had the 5800 for 10 years or so and it has always worked flawlessly.

Thanks,
Mike

I know what you mean, as I am still a little sentimental about my 5800. But I am really happy with my 4311 and the new tech that came with it. The 4311 is a bargain at its current street price for what you get.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1388717
jjackkrash is offline  
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off