A little disappointed with todays receivers - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 79 Old 01-22-2012, 12:33 PM - Thread Starter
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It seems like the amp sections are taking a back seat and more attention is being put on the AV processing.Case in point : I have a Denon 2805 that weighs 30 lbs and had a list price of $899. The new Denons (and other brands) for the same price weigh only about 24 lbs. That tells me they had to cut back on the power supply and amp sections to include the AV processing to keep the same price point. Am I correct ?
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post #2 of 79 Old 01-22-2012, 12:55 PM
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maybe... it also could be that lighter materials are being used...

edit: not sure why disappointed... today's avr does way more than yesterdays did...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

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post #3 of 79 Old 01-22-2012, 01:22 PM
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I was also thinking that, so i got an Aventage A1010 weighs 33 pounds, it lists for higher than the 899 you mentioned,but I was able to get it for less than that price.
I think I paid around 700 at a big box store about 7 years ago for my V1400 which weighs 32 pounds.
Old Mike
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post #4 of 79 Old 01-22-2012, 02:11 PM
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I have posted this previously..
The primary Japanese brands Onkyo, Pioneer, Denon and Marantz report their profits in Japanese YEN. The YEN has appreciated almost 40% against the weakening US$..
This means that product costs went up significantly..
And they reduced the power transformer size & capacitors which decreases its power supply voltage/current capability and less heat sinking area..
Making the weight to go down by about 25%..

Simple economics..

Just my $0.02..
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post #5 of 79 Old 01-22-2012, 04:09 PM
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But these receivers in Japan itself have also had smaller amps haven't they so the weakening USD isn't the whole story? For AVRs made in China the RMB is slowly rising so this must come into it.

Audiosceptics accept audio trials using 25 people. A recent Oxford study with over 353,000 patient records from 639 separate clinical trials shows for every 1,000 people taking diclofenac or ibuprofen there would be 3 additional heart attacks, 4 more cases of heart failure and 1 death every year.

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post #6 of 79 Old 01-22-2012, 04:13 PM
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Although it may be worth noting the 806 to 809 series all weigh 40lbs, and the 3xxx series from 7 to 9 all weigh 55lbs...Onkyo has stayed consistent throughout (although maybe their margins have diminished because of this).
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post #7 of 79 Old 01-22-2012, 05:00 PM
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Weight shouldn't be the deciding factor. My 3010 is quite heavy and has 9 channels. Comes out to about 65w a channel if all are driven and has no problem driving my paradigms. In two channel direct I was beyond pleased at almost max volume.

I made the mistake of jumping the gun to get my avr. I'm in need of room correction and will be doing so by the way of a denon 4311CI. It's an impressive avr IMHO. My yamaha is as well but just lacks in the room correction dept.
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post #8 of 79 Old 01-22-2012, 05:04 PM
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Are there any receivers that have built-in graphic equalizers?
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post #9 of 79 Old 01-22-2012, 05:07 PM
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^^^

yea, most of them...

they are of little value compared to the room correction routines, however...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #10 of 79 Old 01-22-2012, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^

yea, most of them...

they are of little value compared to the room correction routines, however...

Room correction routines?
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post #11 of 79 Old 01-22-2012, 05:42 PM
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^^^

audyssey, ypao, mcacc, etc....

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #12 of 79 Old 01-22-2012, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pixel*entity View Post

It seems like the amp sections are taking a back seat and more attention is being put on the AV processing.Case in point : I have a Denon 2805 that weighs 30 lbs and had a list price of $899. The new Denons (and other brands) for the same price weigh only about 24 lbs. That tells me they had to cut back on the power supply and amp sections to include the AV processing to keep the same price point. Am I correct ?

None of the metrics you use..weight and price..have nothing to do with anything.

Bob

The views expressed here are my own and do not necessarily represent those of the FOX,ABC,CBS,or CW Networks,MeTv, my employer or its parent company. Nor my wife for that matter!
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post #13 of 79 Old 01-22-2012, 06:17 PM
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I would take one of today's receivers with room correction over older receivers. Most receivers have enough power for most speakers in most rooms.
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post #14 of 79 Old 01-22-2012, 06:22 PM
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You might be a prime candidate to go the separates route if this really bothers you.

This way you can buy a stoutly spec'ed power amp section that won't need to change for years. You can pick your choice of a small selection of affordable used pre-pros that are a few years old. This will keep you in the game without spending a fortune.
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post #15 of 79 Old 01-22-2012, 08:27 PM
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Didn't we have this discussion two weeks ago?

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #16 of 79 Old 01-22-2012, 08:46 PM
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Didn't you say that two weeks ago?
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post #17 of 79 Old 01-22-2012, 09:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pixel*entity View Post

Case in point : I have a Denon 2805 that weighs 30 lbs and had a list price of $899. The new Denons (and other brands) for the same price weigh only about 24 lbs. That tells me they had to cut back on the power supply and amp sections to include the AV processing to keep the same price point.

Have you actually listened to the two, or did this comparison take place solely within your mind?

Don't believe everything on the Interwebz! A duck's quack DOES echo!
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post #18 of 79 Old 01-22-2012, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pixel*entity View Post

It seems like the amp sections are taking a back seat and more attention is being put on the AV processing.Case in point : I have a Denon 2805 that weighs 30 lbs and had a list price of $899. The new Denons (and other brands) for the same price weigh only about 24 lbs. That tells me they had to cut back on the power supply and amp sections to include the AV processing to keep the same price point. Am I correct ?

Remember $899 back then is worth more than that in today's money. My last two receivers both Onkyo's an 805 and 3009 weighed in at over 50 lbs. each.
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post #19 of 79 Old 01-22-2012, 10:36 PM
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With elecrtronics, they are generally cheaper or the same price, they don't follow normal economic trends.

I think the the amp section may be the exception, as most receivers need a large block of iron and copper to supply the amps.

Maybe they will start moving to class D and switch mode power supplies and that will help.

Some of you may not know this, but the worst inefficiency in audio playback is the speakers. They are often horribly inefficient.

They solved that problem a LONG time ago, but the solution was large horns, which are simply not practical for home use. Which is a bit sad, I guess, because we are paying for that inefficiency (well, not everyone - some people use quite efficient speakers)

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #20 of 79 Old 01-23-2012, 12:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

Maybe they will start moving to class D and switch mode power supplies and that will help.

This is what I think is happening. The old school analog class A/B amps were super heavy while the new digital class D stuff is lighter.
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post #21 of 79 Old 01-23-2012, 05:10 AM
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Darn, I need to start buying my receivers by weight now !
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post #22 of 79 Old 01-23-2012, 06:10 AM
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My *still working* family room set-up Onkyo787 (circia 2000) weighs 37 lbs with 6.1 channels rated 100 watts/8 ohms, it drives the AT System 350's 5.1 (circia 1998) 4 ohm speakers fine. Still remember paying $999 for it.

Does that mean it is "better" than today's design/cost/weight optimized AVR's because it's amp/power supply is heavier??

Like the Auto business I work in, surely the AVR business has year-year KPI's to improve the cost/weight of the components for improved profitability and yen appreciation offset.

The only thing I miss for it is AutoEQ (audyssey), but until it kicks the bucket will keep it.
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post #23 of 79 Old 01-23-2012, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bac522 View Post

Darn, I need to start buying my receivers by weight now !

Do that, and next thing you know, they'll be selling them by the pound...
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post #24 of 79 Old 01-23-2012, 08:19 AM
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To the OP:

It's true that more focus has been put on the pre-amp stage than the power amp stage. It used to be a receiver was basically a power amplifier with a pre-amp included at little extra cost. Now it's mainly a pre-amp with a power amplifier thrown in for little extra cost.
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post #25 of 79 Old 01-23-2012, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdfox18doe View Post

none of the metrics you use..weight and price..have nothing to do with anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gilesjp View Post

this is what i think is happening. The old school analog class a/b amps were super heavy while the new digital class d stuff is lighter.

+1
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post #26 of 79 Old 01-23-2012, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gilesjp View Post

This is what I think is happening. The old school analog class A/B amps were super heavy while the new digital class D stuff is lighter.

unlikely to be the cause in this case, as none of the units in question use class d amplification... of the mainstream brands, that is the exclusive domain of the pioneer sc series...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #27 of 79 Old 01-23-2012, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gilesjp View Post

This is what I think is happening. The old school analog class A/B amps were super heavy while the new digital class D stuff is lighter.


True..
However in today's AVRs very few incorporate Class D digital amplifier solutions..

Just my $0.02...
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post #28 of 79 Old 01-23-2012, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pixel*entity View Post

It seems like the amp sections are taking a back seat and more attention is being put on the AV processing.Case in point : I have a Denon 2805 that weighs 30 lbs and had a list price of $899. The new Denons (and other brands) for the same price weigh only about 24 lbs. That tells me they had to cut back on the power supply and amp sections to include the AV processing to keep the same price point. Am I correct ?

The Denon 2805 was 28.75 lbs and it was replaced by the 33 series which started off with the 3310 at 28.4 lbs. Then it dropped to 26.9 lbs for the 3311 and 26.8 for the 3312. I have the 3310 and 3311 and I really can't tell a difference as far as power but I will admit my Paradigm Studio 20s are pretty easy to drive and I am in a small room. Still 2 lbs over the last 8 years is really not that bad. Denons were never the heaviest receiver on the market but I've always found them to have good amp sections. If you are worried about weight then there is always Onkyo. Most of the time people get so caught up in 10 or 15 watts per channel when features are what they should be looking at.
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post #29 of 79 Old 01-23-2012, 04:23 PM
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Years ago, in the 1960s, outrageous power specs having nothing to do with reality were the norm in stereo equipment, so they (the FTC) required that a standard power test be done at 8 ohms on both channels and published.

Now we have 5 and 7 channel receivers, and the only requirement is the same 2-channel test.

The law should require 7-channel receivers to publish and advertise only the power they actually put out to all seven channels at once at 1% or less distortion. Until that happens, we have only the tests done by Home Theater to tell us how much of a rip-off most of this junk really is, and who are the ones screwing us the hardest.

Let the following three examples illustrate the good, the fair, and the ugly:

The GOOD;

Cambridge 650R receiver: Specified; 100 watts per channel with ALL SEVEN CHANNELS DRIVEN!! (120 watts for 2 channels driven). $1600 * * Bravo; one honest manufacturer.

The FAIR;

Denon AVR-2311CI receiver; 75 watts per channel with all seven channels driven (105 watts for 2 channels driven). $600


The UGLY!:

Anthem MRX -700 receiver; 53 watts per channel with all seven channels driven (110 watts for 2 channels driven. ** $2000 **!!!!!!
Did I hear the word RIP-OFF in the crowd there? You betcha, Charley!

There are at least a dozen receivers that sell for under $700 that deliver more power to all seven channels than the $2000 Anthem MRX-700. If that isn't the worst trashing of their customers I have ever seen, then it sure comes close. If I spent $2000 for that Anthem and then learned that it had the power supply of a typical $500 or less receiver, I would be seriously enraged! I would feel like a guy who bought a Ferrari and found out it had a 56-horsepower engine.

This outrageous example should get Anthem the official 2011 SCREW THE CONSUMER award.

Most of the rest fall in the BAD category; too many (and too nauseating) to mention!

Caveat emptor!

And by the way...anyone can add some metal and make a receiver heavier; check the actual power output before you buy, not the weight!

I have a Sony SACD player that weighs 54 pounds; power output zero (SCD-777ES).

News Flash...: Pioneer has announced that their 2012 Elite line of receivers will have class D switching amplifiers. Those will definitely be much lighter than a normal class AB amplifier, so throw away your scale.





Quote:
Originally Posted by pixel*entity View Post

It seems like the amp sections are taking a back seat and more attention is being put on the AV processing.Case in point : I have a Denon 2805 that weighs 30 lbs and had a list price of $899. The new Denons (and other brands) for the same price weigh only about 24 lbs. That tells me they had to cut back on the power supply and amp sections to include the AV processing to keep the same price point. Am I correct ?

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post #30 of 79 Old 01-23-2012, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bac522 View Post

Darn, I need to start buying my receivers by weight now !

Go grab a Denon 5805
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