Emotiva XMC-1 Spec Sheet and boy oh boy it looks SPECIAL - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 189 Old 01-29-2012, 03:08 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Just to let everyone know that Emotiva has released real non speculative spec sheets on their balanced pre/pro that's been in the works for some time.

I have a feeling Emotiva will regain respect lost with the UMC-1 and will gain a lot more once this baby comes out this summer!

The industry has needed a pre/pro in the XMC-1 pricepoint with the level of performance I speculate it will have.

Watch out Marantz AV7005, Onkyo 40.x, Classe SSP-800, Atheme D2v et al Dan and friends are coming to get ya!!!

GET THIS BOYS AND GIRLS!

$1499 with TacT TCS 3e RCS on a TI DSP/DAC Linux ARM A9 solution


Emotiva XMC-1 Balanced Pre/Pro PDF Spec Sheet



"The Emotiva XMC-1 - The promise, fulfilled." -Emotiva Audio Corporation
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post #2 of 189 Old 01-29-2012, 03:21 PM
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I thought it was to be an Audyssey based product. I have TacT for 2 channel. could be interesting.

R 8:28


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post #3 of 189 Old 01-29-2012, 03:27 PM
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The question remains - how do you trust their design and build implementation when they have never been able to fix the UMC-1?

I'll remain a sceptic and not allow myself to be seduced by the release of a spec sheet given Emotiva's past record w/regard to this category of product.

Let the XMC-1 get out into the real world and prove itself for a while before buying into the advertising hype.

Cheers,
SB
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post #4 of 189 Old 01-29-2012, 03:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
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For the most part the UMC-1 has been fixed including the fundamentally flawed bass management.

If you have a unit with the last/final revision audio and video section PCBs and have the last/latest firmware then the unit performs great and has little issues.

The HDMI mux/I2S bus audio issues are due to the bloody implementation of Dolby Volume. It's the CS49DV8C and it's CPLD to the CS497004 as boundary JTAG might reveal.

The use of the CS49DV8C and Max II is to blame IMHO from self taught hobbyist knowledge and experience repairing UMC-1 and replacing PCBs revs three times.

AND remember the UMC-1 is a $500 dollar product. There are users on here who've spent more on a POWER CORD!

The new TI Linux platform will allow them to add a DSP feature like DV simply in software IP. Those DUAL CORE Aureus TMS320DA710 DSPs are 300Mhz floating point 64bit capable and have 1800 MIPS each not to mention the ARM A9 processor and it's CP15 co-pro. The converters are DSD1793 to a true differential discrete output stage. That stage is running a CS3310 controlled resistor ladder for each channel. FP display is an OLED not a VFD. VFDs are electrically very noisy and it's good to see an OLED being used here.

The fact they have a working TacT TCS 3e RCS IP working on that linux platform is fantastic news! Ray Dennison is a fantastic lead on the DSP!

Dan has put together a fantastic team to dev/engineer the piece and in terms of electronics/platforms being used IMHO it's going to be VERY SPECIAL at any price let alone $1500 bones! Personally I think it should MSRP at $2k but I guess Dan is thinking velocity/volume and the possible ODM contracts etc.. that will be inevitable. Also all those poor poor UMC-1 sufferers (complete BS) will be getting... get this... 40% off! Heck just buying the UMC-1 on that deal saved money!

Emo, Dan and friends are HELL BENT on a $2k balanced pre/pro with $5-10k UP performance (Classe Anthem etc). The fact they have rebounded the dev/EE team and scrapping at least 2-3 XMC-1 designs and all that loss of money and time... Only to rethink it all and use the latest and greatest silicon as of today... All those expenses and losses of time/$...

YUP Dan et al are HELL BENT on bringing a $2k pre/pro industry KILLER to market!

All that UMC-1 hair pulling... trips to China and sleepless nights... LOL and a couple YEARS OF IT TOO! And then they pull this baby outta a hat after going through all of that!

HELL BENT AND DETERMINED

Bloody obvious no!

Many design/EE audio houses have giving up on inhouse MODERN pre/pro design/ODM as they simply LACK the software engineering skills necessary for it. There is only a few outfits really making modern digital AVRs/Pre/Pros.

I don't think any of you understand how many lines of code and dev work goes into these embedded consumer devices. Realize this product has the compute ability of your average PDA/smart phone.

The fact the UMC-1 turned out to be the problem child it has been has lead to this product. I seriously wonder if this unit in it's current form would even have been created if it wasn't for the UMC-1 issues. It bought time for Emotiva to rethink the XMC-1 and delay it. This is turn has lead to a unit with the best silicon around to build an AVR/Pre/Pro as of 1/29/2012 12:01 AM UTC as is evident in the deployment of Boz's TCS 3e IP being EASILY deployed with TI's PAF TMS320 standard. This unit is completely different than the original XMC-1 design using CL DSPs.

This is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PLATFORM than the UMC-1 in every metric!
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post #5 of 189 Old 01-29-2012, 04:12 PM
 
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It looks special? Man, that's exactly what they said about the UMC. They raved on and on. They were actually giddy. So we can't go by what it looks like or what 'they' might say. Dan and Lonnie are singing the same song now, but only a review from a neutral party would hold weight at this time.

It took over 2 years for them to fix the UMC and people are still having some issues on the Emotiva forum. Plus this XMC is out of date right now before it's even released.
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post #6 of 189 Old 01-29-2012, 04:16 PM
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No Wide, No Height, No thanks.
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post #7 of 189 Old 01-29-2012, 04:16 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

Plus this XMC is out of date right now before it's even released.

uhh what are you talking about? The AM-1808 and ADV7623 as well as the TI DA710 DSPs are NEW PRODUCTS.

ADV7623 is very new and has 300Mhz TMDS channels so it can do 4K and even 1080p/120Hz frame sequential 3D as the bandwidth is there and it makes this HDMI solution completely FUTURE PROOF.

Name another piece that uses the same components bro !?! (well I'll give ya the new Onkyo/Integra piece with 4k support using ADV7623)

Realize that this "platform" will be used to create more than just the XMC-1. I'd expect ODM/OEM variants for other vendors or "stencils" for this baby. Dan and friends won't just have consumer ID sales but sales to other pre/pro vendors using variants/children spawned from this platform... mark my words friends!

I understand the cynicism and it's well founded considering the UMC-1 fiasco but if you guys were EEs you'd be excited and know this is a...

DIFFERENT ANIMAL


Emotiva XMC-1 Balanced Pre/Pro PDF Spec Sheet

"The Emotiva XMC-1 - The promise, fulfilled."
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post #8 of 189 Old 01-29-2012, 06:38 PM
 
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By out of date, I am refering to the feature set. It's only 7.1, it has only 1 HDMI out, no zone 3, no sirius or HD radio and little in the way of legacy inputs like phono. It has an almost unheard of room correction system from a company whose only products I can find are from several years ago.

All for 1500 bucks. By next summer Marantz and others could have new pre-pros with even more features, but at present any models at around that price have much more to offer.

Don't get me wrong, the XMC could be a home run. But with Emotiva's past history of at least a couple processors that had serious issues, a mere announcement is not enough for expressions of glee.
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post #9 of 189 Old 01-29-2012, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

By out of date, I am refering to the feature set. It's only 7.1, it has only 1 HDMI out, no zone 3, no sirius or HD radio and little in the way of legacy inputs like phono. It has an almost unheard of room correction system from a company whose only products I can find are from several years ago.

All for 1500 bucks. By next summer Marantz and others could have new pre-pros with even more features, but at present any models at around that price have much more to offer.

Agreed, its feature set does not compete with mainstream prepros but most high-end prepros lack some of those (and other) features.
EDIT: Trinnov, otoh, is lively in the pro field and, currently, is being promoted by at least one very high-end HT manufacturer. What I should have said is that TacT has offered some newer products but its major problem is support and distribution despite good system performance reports.

Quote:
Don't get me wrong, the XMC could be a home run. But with Emotiva's past history of at least a couple processors that had serious issues, a mere announcement is not enough for expressions of glee.

Amen.

Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile

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post #10 of 189 Old 01-29-2012, 07:20 PM
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Sceptical. And it lacks the attractive price point that the UMC had.

Sad, seeing how all someone has to do is to remove the amplifiers from a competent AVR, and call it a day (with little change in cost to the receiver.)

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #11 of 189 Old 01-29-2012, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solid-State View Post

uhh what are you talking about? The AM-1808 and ADV7623 as well as the TI DA710 DSPs are NEW PRODUCTS.

What are you smoking..

The TI DA710 is now almost 5 years old...
Though an excellent DSP, Harman/Kardon has used this part for the last 2 generations..

If Emotiva really wants to raise the bar in terms of audio DSP processing power they should look into the latest DSPs from Cirrus Logic and their 49800 series... They have a triple and quad core versions available. It appears that the marketing/engineering boys @ Emotiva are behind the curve in terms of new silicon processors and developments..

If they want to work with the latest/greatest..
They can PM me and I can educate them accordingly..
Of course for a development fee, as there are no free rides..

Just my $0.02..
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post #12 of 189 Old 01-29-2012, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

Sceptical. And it lacks the attractive price point that the UMC had.

Agreed. The cost of entry was the UMC's main selling point. At $1.5K, there are many more competitors (new and used), most of which have the latest features in a dependable implementation...

John

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post #13 of 189 Old 01-29-2012, 07:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Cirrus Logic 49800 !!!!

ROTFL

have fun with that buddy!

PS WTF do you think the UMC-1s firmware is so fuxored ehh... you think it's entirely the Chinese/Indian and not Austin! Well if you have worked with the DSP/software you'd know that's TOTAL BS.

Dude it uses CLs IDE and BS dev software that's ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE.

If they had gone the EE route you're describing I wouldn't have even posted and I would have thought the EEs at emo et al must be MASOCHISTS considering what they've gone through with CS49700 and CL couldn't even provide a workable "5 chan stereo" or "multi chan stereo" IP boxed with it for god's sake. Just look at the LFE processing and summing DSP IDE FLAWS and it took CIRUS LOGIC not Tonewinner two years to fix that. The LFE summing xover and processing was FUNDAMENTALLY FLAWED on a BASIC SOFTWARE ENGINEERING LEVEL in the MPM and PPM issue abound. The firmware is HORRIBLE. It's obvious the ******** that wrote the software had little to no understanding of xovers summing and generally audio.

THE DSP MICROCODE/FIRMWARE FLAWS ARE A LAUGHABLE JOKE FOR ANY AUDIO ENGINEER WORTH HIS SALT

CL's dev software and support

IS A JOKE COMPARED TO TI!

AN ABSOLUTE JOKE!

M Code seriously give a call to another EE who has actually developed a product using CLs DSPs in an AVR product.

BTW it's a TMS320DA8x the DA7x is a typo. You'd see that it's the one with ARM if you read the spec sheets and whitepapers. I purposely didn't correct that to see if anyone with a brain was reading the whitepapers and would make comment.

PS If your so hot M Code then it's CL that needs you not TW!
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post #14 of 189 Old 01-29-2012, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

What are you smoking..

The TI DA710 is now almost 5 years old...
Though an excellent DSP, Harman/Kardon has used this part for the last 2 generations..

If Emotiva really wants to raise the bar in terms of audio DSP processing power they should look into the latest DSPs from Cirrus Logic and their 49800 series... They have a triple and quad core versions available. It appears that the marketing/engineering boys @ Emotiva are behind the curve in terms of new silicon processors and developments..

If they want to work with the latest/greatest..
They can PM me and I can educate them accordingly..
Of course for a development fee, as there are no free rides..

Just my $0.02..

As a software engineer, I always thought the programming was more important than the hardware (admittedly, with DSP, insufficient power does limit capability.)

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #15 of 189 Old 01-29-2012, 08:06 PM
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Glad the tone of this thread remained respectful.
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post #16 of 189 Old 01-29-2012, 08:16 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by cmryan821 View Post

Glad the tone of this thread remained respectful.

Sorry point taken I'll be more couth.

I know it's a TMS320DA8x solution due to the streaming and USB feature. Question is are they using the SOC or separate ARM9 and DSP packages. I bet the SOC is a pain for layout compared to using separate packages.

I just really like the people at Emotiva and feel they represent a small handful of the HONEST audio engineering houses. Some of the prices "high end" gear fetches is borderline SCAM/FRAUD IMHO. Some of the boutique high end markups are immoral. When you get into the thousands of percent margins your a GREEDY SCROOGE even if your production/sales velocity is low/slow and your EE team skills are world leading.
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post #17 of 189 Old 01-29-2012, 08:17 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

As a software engineer, I always thought the programming was more important than the hardware (admittedly, with DSP, insufficient power does limit capability.)

Well put Mike.
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post #18 of 189 Old 01-29-2012, 08:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
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You cynics mention many others at this price point $1500

LIKE WHAT!

Only two pre/pros come to my mind. AV7005 and DHC-40.x

THAT'S IT!

Please share others as I'm in the market.
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post #19 of 189 Old 01-29-2012, 08:43 PM
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To clarify my comment, I was not trying to say there are many processors at the same price point. I was saying that the UMC-1's charm was IT's price point.

The XMC, at it's price point, is going to have to impress more at it's price point.

I would buy a receiver with pre outs for that price, and get a lot of features, and assume it will be fully operational. If the XMC gets the feedback the UMC did, it's in trouble, IMO - there are other options.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #20 of 189 Old 01-29-2012, 08:47 PM
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In the end, the UMC's price was not so attractive.
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post #21 of 189 Old 01-29-2012, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solid-State View Post

Cirrus Logic 49800 !!!!

ROTFL

have fun with that buddy!

PS WTF do you think the UMC-1s firmware is so fuxored ehh...

Dude it uses CLs IDE and BS dev software that's ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE.

If they had gone the EE route you're describing I wouldn't have even posted and I would have thought the EEs at emo et al must be MASOCHISTS considering what they've gone through with CS49700 and CL couldn't even provide a workable "5 chan stereo" or "multi chan stereo" IP boxed with it for god's sake. Just look at the LFE processing and summing DSP IDE FLAWS and it took CIRUS LOGIC not Tonewinner two years to fix that. The LFE summing xover and processing was FUNDAMENTALLY FLAWED on a BASIC SOFTWARE ENGINEERING LEVEL in the MPM and PPM issue abound. The firmware is HORRIBLE. It's obvious the ******** that wrote the software had little to no understanding of xovers summing and generally audio.

THE DSP MICROCODE/FIRMWARE FLAWS ARE A LAUGHABLE JOKE FOR ANY AUDIO ENGINEER WORTH HIS SALT

CL's dev software and support

IS A JOKE COMPARED TO TI!

AN ABSOLUTE JOKE!

M Code seriously give a call to another EE who has actually developed a product using CLs DSPs in an AVR product.

BTW it's a TMS320DA8x the DA7x is a typo. You'd see that it's the one with ARM if you read the spec sheets and whitepapers. I purposely didn't correct that to see if anyone with a brain was reading the whitepapers and would make comment.

PS If your so hot M Code then it's CL that needs you not TW!

Are you are aware that Cirrus Logic's audio DSPs are used by 73% of leading AVR brands, including HK, NAD, Pioneer, Marantz, Onkyo/Integra and Yamaha...
The way the AVR development process works is that the respective silicon maker of the DSP such as TI, ADI, Cirrus Logic and Fujitsu all have their DSP S/W code certified and validated by Dolby and DTS..

Next each individual brand then integrates this certified audio DSP code into their respective AVR/Controller platform including the central CPU controller code...
This is where the majority of S/W bugs & issues arise, not in the already validated S/W code by Dolby & DTS. The problem lies with the primary architect/programmer of the system controller S/W not in the audio DSP code.

If Emotiva has software issues and then blaming Cirrus Logic...
The root problem lies with Emotiva for not doing a thorough debugging/validation on its own system/platform S/W..
Also if Cirrus Logic did have inherent S/W issues then it would have affected all of the other AVR brands that they supply as well..

For your information, at last count I had personally done AVR product development with multiple brands whose total AVR unit sales exceed 10 million units.. So yes we do know a lot about this subject.

Next question...

Just my $0.02...
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post #22 of 189 Old 01-29-2012, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solid-State View Post

You cynics mention many others at this price point $1500

LIKE WHAT!

Only two pre/pros come to my mind. AV7005 and DHC-20.2

THAT'S IT!

Please share others as I'm in the market.

I am not here to argue but there are many of us who use our receivers as pre pro's. Denon 3312 come to mind as a very capable performer with lots of bells and whistles that many of us cannot live without. I am in the market for a new pre pro and I will be looking at all brands but I am loyal to the ones that have a proven track record in my house. That puts the Denon 4313 at the top of a very short list. Audyssey or ARC will be a must as will options such as internet radio/internet downloads, Neo X, and options for height and wide ect... I will also be waiting to look at anything Marantz might come up with to replace the aging 7005 and Anthem MRX-700. I am not going to get everything I want but I will enter everything into an excel spreadsheet and make an educated decision. Not sure if this is how others here do it but when its my money I am careful to get exactly what I want the first time.
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post #23 of 189 Old 01-29-2012, 09:37 PM - Thread Starter
 
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The single ended analog output on a Denon AVR doesn't compared to a proper pre's output section.

I hear what you're saying and I agree when it comes to what consumers are doing.

Heck this same outfit is the #1 after market multichan amp for said customers. It's Emo's bread and butter with those XPA modules.
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post #24 of 189 Old 01-29-2012, 09:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solid-State View Post

The single ended analog output on a Denon AVR doesn't compared to a proper pre's output section.

Can you please comment on this a little more? I know there must be a reason to go with a proper pre pro over the analog output on the Denon but I do not fully understand the differences? Is this an audible difference for most listeners? Just wondering, thanks.
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post #25 of 189 Old 01-29-2012, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DenonLover View Post

Can you please comment on this a little more? I know there must be a reason to go with a proper pre pro over the analog output on the Denon but I do not fully understand the differences? Is this an audible difference for most listeners? Just wondering, thanks.

That statement seems speculative to me. And not all processors have balanced outputs.

Balanced outputs theoretically reduce noise, but if noise is already below audibility, then how would balanced outputs improve the sound?

Just one person's opinion of course. Just trying to address this logically.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #26 of 189 Old 01-29-2012, 10:08 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

That statement seems speculative to me. And not all processors have balanced outputs.

Balanced outputs theoretically reduce noise, but if noise is already below audibility, then how would balanced outputs improve the sound?

Just one person's opinion of course. Just trying to address this logically.

Most of the DACs HAVE BALANCED OUTPUT
There is a bal-se stage converting it to single ended!

The main reason you don't see balanced XLRs on the back is the component cost for the output stage but decent balanced OP AMPS exist if not using a discrete output stage.

But even more so it's DUE TO BACK PANEL REAL-ESTATE than anything else considering the internal converters are outputting a differential signal!

As for TRUE balanced/differential amplifiers that's another story as it's very expensive in terms of component counts to have a proper differential amp end to end and component count at the least DOUBLES.

For that Morris Kessler and Steve Lyle of ATI and their AT200x and AT300x modules is the way to go and their price points are as moral as Dan's with his gear.

These are the good HONEST people in this business selling product at REASONABLE prices.

That can't be said for 73% (yup to the percent ) of the others in this industry selling "high-end" pieces.
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post #27 of 189 Old 01-29-2012, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solid-State View Post

73% my ASS (anyone that quotes an exact percent is a ********ter)

That's a bigger BS claim than your one that AVRs in Japan have 3 to 4 network interfaces.

ROTFL

HK AVR 460 used it and HK dumped it for TI for the same reasons TW experienced with the UMC.

HK is using 49510 on it's LOW END MODELS and is the only one I know of doing so. I'm not an insider like you though so I don't know of the others.

Again your information is flawed and incorrect..

Lets set the record straight at least for the sake of HK..
The HK AVRs models including 1600/1650/160/260/2600/2650/360/3600/3650/460/560 ALL use the 49700 and have for the last 5 years.. The mentioned 49510 part was last used in 2004/2005 in their 20 series..
The TI parts are used in the step up AVR models such as the 445/645/660/745/760/7550HD..

Quote:


M Code do you work for Cirrus Logic or via proxy have anything to do with Austin?

Nope..
Don't work for HK or Cirrus Logic..
As my profile says I am unemployed..
But I am interested in a job with an AV brand such as Emotiva, so if you do have a higher level HR contact there, please PM it to me.. Tnx.

Just my $0.02..
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post #28 of 189 Old 01-29-2012, 10:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

That statement seems speculative to me. And not all processors have balanced outputs.

Balanced outputs theoretically reduce noise, but if noise is already below audibility, then how would balanced outputs improve the sound?

Just one person's opinion of course. Just trying to address this logically.

Thanks exactly what I needed to know, thanks.
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post #29 of 189 Old 01-29-2012, 10:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Again your information is flawed and incorrect..

Lets set the record straight at least for the sake of HK..
The HK AVRs models including 1600/1650/160/260/2600/2650/360/3600/3650/460/560 ALL use the 49700 and have for the last 5 years.. The mentioned 49510 part was last used in 2004/2005 in their 20 series..
The TI parts are used in the step up AVR models such as the 445/645/660/745/760/7550HD..



Nope..
Don't work for HK or Cirrus Logic..
As my profile says I am unemployed..
But I am interested in a job with an AV brand such as Emotiva, so if you do have a higher level HR contact there, please PM it to me.. Tnx.

Just my $0.02..

Hey sorry for the hard remarks M Code...

I've read through some of your posts and your a very nice and helpful man here on AVS. You've helped thousands of people actually and are a way better "biz" PR guy than I could ever be LOL. You also appear to be very competent in your technical remarks and more so than I.

Are you an EE or software dev?

I'm just a self taught hack and DIYer with a copy of Paul Horowitz's The Art of Electronics and many others and I also have an IT background.

Thanks for educating me on HK DSPs as well.

BTW D&M uses Analog Devices, Pioneer use Motorola, and I thought Yamaha used their own
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post #30 of 189 Old 01-29-2012, 11:44 PM
 
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Another option in the 1500 price range will be the forthcoming Outlaw audio 978. It'll have Sabre DACs and the flagship Audyssey version and several other goodies. They have a better track record than Emotiva in the pre-pro market and this one has me somewhat interested.

Other than that Solidstate, no I do not live in a Mcmansion, I am not a vinyl dolt, nor do I have a 1000 square foot theater. But thanks for making all those assumptions. You seem kind of amped up, are most of your posts so confrontational?
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