Need an A-V receiver with pre-amp outputs - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 19 Old 02-04-2012, 05:51 PM - Thread Starter
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I have a dedicated home theater which I'm going to be upgrading. At present I have an Electrohome 9500LC CRT projector and will probably be replacing it with a digital projector - probably a JVC X30. Anyhow, my current system uses an old (pre-HDMI) Denon receiver. The front three channels - Revel Studios - are fed by a separate very good amplifier - which I'd like to keep in the loop - and the side/rear 3/4 channels are powered by the receiver's amps. (The subwoofer is self-powered and takes a pre-amp signal.) So I need a receiver that has pre-amp outputs for all the channels. Moderate amplifier power (75-100 amp) for each channel should be plenty in the receiver, since it will be feeding just the sides and rears. Of course I want good sound quality but - correct me if I'm wrong - I think most receivers do a really good job, even if not top of the line. So I'd like to spend something like $400-700 or so. The projectors I'm considering have 3D capability, so the receiver needs to handle that (maybe they all do).

Suggestions?
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post #2 of 19 Old 02-04-2012, 06:29 PM
 
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Considering you're willing to spend big bucks on gear in the past, the CRT projector, and relatively big bucks today, the DILA projector and Revel Ultimate Studios are very expensive why pray tell are you considering using a horrible AVR with a crappy analog section brother !

I'd pickup an Integra 40.3 and a couple Emotiva UPA2s.
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post #3 of 19 Old 02-04-2012, 06:57 PM
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3312 is the cheapest Denon with preouts. 4311 has XT32 and will Eq 2 subs. I'd call arounds for the street price on both, the street price is substantially under MSRP for both, but still more than you were considering.

He's a link on the current Denon models, first three or four posts explain the feature differences in the XX12 models.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1334369
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post #4 of 19 Old 02-04-2012, 07:24 PM
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Pioneer 1121K has pre outs and just saw a thread mentioning it's on sale for 449. I have the 1120K, very happy with it.
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post #5 of 19 Old 02-04-2012, 10:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solid-State View Post

Considering you're willing to spend big bucks on gear in the past, the CRT projector, and relatively big bucks today, the DILA projector and Revel Ultimate Studios are very expensive why pray tell are you considering using a horrible AVR with a crappy analog section brother !

Ah .. the arrogance of some people!

No such thing as a Revel Ultimate Studio. The JVC X30/RS45 projector is only $3500 list, so not high end. I'll also be getting an Oppo universal player. The situation is that our home theater is in a house that we're going to be renting out, so I want to provide a great experience for the renters (and we'll be using it at times, too) without breaking the bank.

Considering that the front three speakers will be powered by a separate very good amplifier, and the subwoofer is self-powered, I wonder how much difference I'd be able to hear spending big bucks on a receiver where only the sides/rears are powered by the receiver's amps. My guess is not too much, but I haven't been keeping up with the latest audio technology for the last few years, so I'm certainly willing to listen to anybody's opinion as long as he isn't a jackass.
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post #6 of 19 Old 02-04-2012, 10:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cwilson View Post

Ah .. the arrogance of some people!

No such thing as a Revel Ultimate Studio. The JVC X30/RS45 projector is only $3500 list, so not high end. I'll also be getting an Oppo universal player. The situation is that our home theater is in a house that we're going to be renting out, so I want to provide a great experience for the renters (and we'll be using it at times, too) without breaking the bank.

Considering that the front three speakers will be powered by a separate very good amplifier, and the subwoofer is self-powered, I wonder how much difference I'd be able to hear spending big bucks on a receiver where only the sides/rears are powered by the receiver's amps. My guess is not too much, but I haven't been keeping up with the latest audio technology for the last few years, so I'm certainly willing to listen to anybody's opinion as long as he isn't a jackass.

I'm telling you NOT to purchase a receiver. You're contradicting yourself and being rude to me at the same time when all I'm doing is offering advice. If the 40.3 is to much money then get an AV7005 or 20.2/3 If the UPA2 is to expensive for you 3/4 then get couple cheap class D amps.

Your best bet is a clearance Integra 20.2 and couple cheap class D tripath amps or IRS2092 based modules premade from eBay.

BTW http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/302
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post #7 of 19 Old 02-04-2012, 11:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Solid-State: Sorry if you were just trying to be helpful. My Studios are 10+ years old and wonderful but not quite the same unit as they sell now.

Let's start again. What I have now is an old Denon AVR, maybe 12 years old, set up as described above, which gives fantastic sound, at least to my ears. I think it cost about $1000 originally, but I can't imagine that today's receivers aren't just as good or better at half the cost. Are you suggesting that I should get separate components? Wouldn't that dramatically drive up the cost - without much audible benefit?
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post #8 of 19 Old 02-04-2012, 11:31 PM
 
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Well now that I understand your situation and you mine... uhh... you're original hunch is prob best when it comes to $$$

As for audio benefit...

Come on guys... use common sense. Think about it... PHYSICALLY!

Just look at your amps ok and the SIZE OF THEM. The electronic BOARDS IN THEM and the HUGE TRANSFORMER.

and now think about it... that's for two channels... and takes up 3-5U

The AVR has at least 5 amps an entire video and audio section and takes up the SAME SPACE...

THINK ABOUT PEOPLE

LOL

Take the AV7005 in one hand, or should I say parts and the parts from an XPA5 in one hand... well on a table/workbench... now try to RAM those electronics into a 4U chassis!!!

uhhh.... are we getting it now people....


DUH!

PS what do you guys think all that extra space is taking up! AIR! Do you guys think all the extra electronics and components are in there for no reason... that they do nothing!
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post #9 of 19 Old 02-04-2012, 11:36 PM
 
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I seriously don't understand why people don't get there are PHYSICAL constraints involved in designing an AVR in terms of it's analog audio section and amps. It's impossible to make/design high end audio circuits in an AVR chassis.

PERIOD
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post #10 of 19 Old 02-05-2012, 12:01 AM
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I listen with my ears, not with a measuring tape and bathroom scale.
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post #11 of 19 Old 02-05-2012, 12:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solid-State View Post

I seriously don't understand why people don't get there are PHYSICAL constraints involved in designing an AVR in terms of it's analog audio section and amps. It's impossible to make/design high end audio circuits in an AVR chassis.

PERIOD

The analog audio section is pretty much comprised of a DAC, some op amps, and a volume control chip in schematics I have looked at (not including zone implementations and such.)

I realize perhaps more could be done with more money and space.

The power supply, of course, is limited by space and price in most AVRs. You are not going to see a 1.2 kVA transformer and 100,000 uF of filter caps in receivers (maybe it's been done, but I have not personally seen it.)

Based what I have see for amp circuitry, there is no real problem fitting 7 channels or maybe more into an AVR with a quality design, but you are not going to see 6 output devices per channel, etc.

I feel AVRs are really good at what they do given their price. I can't say the same for so called "high end"...some of that stuff is stupidly overpriced for what it does

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #12 of 19 Old 02-05-2012, 12:19 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

The analog audio section is pretty much comprised of a DAC, some op amps, and a volume control chip in schematics I have looked at (not including zone implementations and such.)

I realize perhaps more could be done with more money and space.

The power supply, of course, is limited by space and price in most AVRs. You are not going to see a 1.2 kVA transformer and 100,000 uF of filter caps in receivers (maybe it's been done, but I have not personally seen it.)

Based what I have see for amp circuitry, there is no real problem fitting 7 channels or maybe more into an AVR with a quality design, but you are not going to see 6 output devices per channel, etc.

I feel AVRs are really good at what they do given their price. I can't say the same for so called "high end"...some of that stuff is stupidly overpriced for what it does


Fantastic post Mike! I agree 100%

You get very good if not amazing SQ these days for the money and really when it's all said and done compared to the gear years ago it's a buyers market. Same goes for loudspeakers really. It's really shocking what you get for the money these days.

As for the stupidly overpriced SCAM GEAR

Isn't it obvious at this point I don't prescribe to such and that I'm a bull in a china shop regarding this with industry insiders on this forum!

LOL

Denon AVR3312 is your best bet cwilson as jack said.
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post #13 of 19 Old 02-05-2012, 11:07 AM - Thread Starter
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I haven't been following the audiophile scene for some years but my impression has always been that the biggest factor in reproduction, by far, is the speakers. Second, you have to have good amps with adequate power. Once you have those, you're in good shape; the differences in preamp processing are pretty minor in comparison. Now maybe there are some people with golden ears who hear dramatic differences from one preamp to another - or one source to another - but my impression is that for 99% of the population, any audible differences are pretty minimal. But the differences between a well-amped high-end speaker set and a underpowered low-end speaker set will be huge.
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post #14 of 19 Old 02-05-2012, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cwilson View Post

I haven't been following the audiophile scene for some years but my impression has always been that the biggest factor in reproduction, by far, is the speakers. Second, you have to have good amps with adequate power. Once you have those, you're in good shape; the differences in preamp processing are pretty minor in comparison. Now maybe there are some people with golden ears who hear dramatic differences from one preamp to another - or one source to another - but my impression is that for 99% of the population, any audible differences are pretty minimal. But the differences between a well-amped high-end speaker set and a underpowered low-end speaker set will be huge.

The biggest sound difference today on the processor side is room correction. The 4311 can be had for approx. $1350 or less right now and it has MultEq XT32, which by many accounts (with some dissent) is the best room correction available in a receiver today and it will Eq dual subs. IMO, it is a bargain at its current price and was a substantial improvement over my Denon 5800 without room correction, but that was several thousand more when new. The 4311 also has an amp section that is stable into 4 ohm loads.

The 3312 has XT (not XT32) which is also very good, but not as good as XT32. Its also cheaper.

Before I had XT32, I suspected it was just snake oil, but its not. It is awesome. Only you can decide if the extra money is worth it, but a 4311 is, IMO, a great value at its current street price. If you didn't need preouts, and didn't want to spend to step into XT32, I would suggest the 2112 at $450 right now, which will also sound great with MultEq XT, but again, it doesn't have preouts.
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post #15 of 19 Old 02-05-2012, 11:32 AM
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I'd also note that my mains are B&W N804s with and HTM2 center, which are not exactly power hogs, but not all that efficient either. I used to power them with a separate Rotel Amp until it died because I thought I had to. Now I am using the 4311's internal amps as a "backup" except now I don't think I am going to replace the amp. They just sing with the 4311, although I have them crossed over at 90 Hz with a Submersive HP pulling the heavy loads down low. With 9 channels of assignable amps, there are a ton of things you can do with an existing separate amp, and, again, its always nice to have a nice backup amp if your external amp goes tits up.
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post #16 of 19 Old 02-05-2012, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Jack, my home theater was designed by Dennis Erskine so it has a lot of sound absorption in the walls and sounds great, but there are still significant differences in sound from one seat to the other, especially bass-wise. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that the best room correction software can do is get the sound perfect at one spot in the room. Every other seat is a compromise. So my guess is that room correction is extremely important for an audiophile listening palace, but that in an eight-seat theater not every seat is going to be equal, with or without room correction. Unless I'm misunderstanding the concept.
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post #17 of 19 Old 02-05-2012, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Jack, I think I remember listening to B&W Nautilus 804's back when I was choosing speakers and loving them. Beautiful things, too, although the speakers are not visible in my theater. I do wonder if there would be much audible difference between using an AVR's amps and the external amp. I guess I'll experiment and find out when I get the new toys.
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post #18 of 19 Old 02-05-2012, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cwilson View Post

Jack, my home theater was designed by Dennis Erskine so it has a lot of sound absorption in the walls and sounds great, but there are still significant differences in sound from one seat to the other, especially bass-wise. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that the best room correction software can do is get the sound perfect at one spot in the room. Every other seat is a compromise. So my guess is that room correction is extremely important for an audiophile listening palace, but that in an eight-seat theater not every seat is going to be equal, with or without room correction. Unless I'm misunderstanding the concept.

I'm probably not the best person to answer that question. My system was 12 or so years old and after a move that ruined a lot of it I just recently started upgrading and learning a lot more about this stuff on here. I didn't even think about audio during the last 10 years--I just enjoyed the stuff I had--so I'm certainly not an expert. But I would think if you have a great room Audyssey is probably less important.

For me, and my personal experience, I can say that I have a horrible open bowling alley of a room and XT32 worked miracles, IMO. Also, IIRC, Audyssey does other things to help multiple seating locations, but again I am not an expert. I'd ask this question in the Audyssey thread or the 4311 thread before just writing it off. I think the question is worth investigating before making a decision.
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post #19 of 19 Old 02-05-2012, 12:28 PM
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I'd recommend either Denon over Onkyo but it might be worth it to take a look at Onkyo 709 809 or maybe even the 3009 - the 4311 can be had cheaper when its available refurbished. All the Onkyos listed above have preamp out - the 3009 offers XT32. The 1009 isn't worth the dollar outlay over the 709/809 IMO. Step up to the 3009 or 4311 if you want XT32. The 3311 and 809 are very comparable feature-wise and similarly priced. I'd be inclined to go with the 3311 in that price range. Both are an exceptional value in the $600 range.

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