Denon "Vintage" AVR-810 Help needed Plz (Upgrade?) - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 14 Old 02-09-2012, 10:24 AM - Thread Starter
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I have read these forums over the years very avidly and this is always my go-to site for AV questions but have never registered before today. I find myself in a bit of a mental overload when it comes to new components and how to upgrade my system or go about getting sound from the TV to my "vintage" Denon. So many products on the market now as compared to when I made my Denon purchases all those years ago! I am a PC Technician (build/repairs) so have a good grasp on the technological for the most part.

Many years ago (approx 19 or so) I spent a lot of time and effort to make smart purchases regarding the then up and coming dolby pro logic for my "home theatre". With a lot of information backing me up I purchased a Denon Avr-810 (80 watts RMS per channel in stereo, with an additional 30 watts to the centre, 15 watts to the rears.) with the Denon 5 disc cd turntable, tape deck and laser disc player. I then purchased an Energy AS-90 powered sub and 2x Tannoy C-10 (fronts), 2x C-6 (rears) and 2x C8 (used as center chan) as speakers. These Tannoys were the older Arena series that use the ICT concept that had a lot of the performance of the pricier Dual Concentric series monitors at that time. I also have hooked up a JVC SVHS HRS7500U, Toshiba SD5109 dual tray DVD player, and my recent purchase of LG BD555C blueray player.

I really still love my receiver and the whole system is immaculate as I am a single female non-smoker who is rarely home to use the system much over the years. However, I have just gotten rid of my 50" Toshiba CinemaSeries HD Projection tv in lieu of a 55" Philips LCD 55PFL5706 smart connect TV. The Philips and the LG BD player are HDMI which puts my poor old Avr-810 to task. The only way I am able to use my sound with the new TV is through the Blue Ray player utilizing either a DVD disc or the USB port with a flash drive on it. I cannot get the TV sound to come through the Denon and thus. to the speakers. I have read about purchasing a Digital Coax & Optical Toslink to R/L Stereo Audio Converter for around $100. I would have to order this product since I cannot find anything locally and who knows if this will even correct my issue adequately?

Do any of you fine people have any advice about this for me? I am on a budget unlike when I made the initial purchases and now as a single gal with a mortgage and bills to pay I do not have a lot of excess cash to spend a ton on new components. My tape deck, Laser Disc and CD changer I have disconnected from the receiver and packaged up probably never to see the light of day again so I only really need to work with the Blue Ray player, TV and possibly my JVC editing VCR I have I wouldn't mind using for old tapes but this is not a necessary component to have hooked up. The Toshiba SD5109 twin disc dvd player I can also live without (and it, along with the vcr, is currently not connected anyway with the new TV) since I have the LG although it is nice to not have to get up to put in the second disc on some of the directors cut DVDs I have and the Dolby Digital decoder worked well with my poor old AVR-810. Plus the HDCD decoder chip makes listening to my old CDs pretty nice although I guess I should just migrate my music collection over to mp3s and get with the year 2012. lol

I have been looking at some of the newer Denon stuff in my price range (Avr-1312/1712, AVR791) and Onkyo (TX-NR509) but the stuff I used to look at like NAD and the higher end items there is no way I can afford if I really need to purchase a new receiver to get everything working as well as possible and to take advantage of the newer sound technologies via HDMI has to offer. I do need something I can use my Energy powered sub with so sub preouts are a necessity. Or, is there any other way I can connect things up so my TV sound will come through my Denon/speakers? I have tried every configuration possible and I think it all comes down to needing that converter that may or may not work.

PS: Yes I am a cave woman and use a regular rooftop antenna for my TV so there is no cable/sat box to deal with atm.

I really appreciate any and all advice!
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post #2 of 14 Old 02-09-2012, 11:34 AM
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post #3 of 14 Old 02-09-2012, 12:46 PM
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One least expensive option would be to simply purchase an HDMI switch (similar to one below) which will convert the HDMI audio to PCM 2.0 audio to a 3.5mm output which you could then connect a 3.5mm to RCA cable to connect to your 810.

http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2

The better option would be to buy a new HDMI AVR which would handle the HDMI switching and allow you to connect the sub. I would pass on the 1312 as it has no AUTO EQ system (Audyssey) and also pass on the 509 as well as it only uses the lowest version of Audyssey 2EQ which cannot EQ the sub. Rather of the three, select the 1712 which uses the more advanced version of Audyssey MultEQ XT (same as the Onkyo 709) which can not only EQ the sub but has many more speaker filters than does 2EQ. You can buy the Denon AVRs new at below MSRP by "calling" one of several authorized resellers to include AV Science, Electronics Expo, or J&R.

You can review the various features in the Denon XX12 series by clicking on the link in my sig and reviewing post #2. Additional helpful information is provided in posts #3-6 in that thread as well.

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post #4 of 14 Old 02-09-2012, 04:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you so much for your informative reply!

I am looking at the Denon you suggested but it is quite a bit more money here where I live in Southwestern Ontario, Canada. We may have "free" health care but our prices on things (especially tech) are crap. :P It looks like I could get a 1712 at our local BestBuy for $400 plus 15% tax which I guess is not completely terrible although I hate dealing with big box stores and generally try to shop at boutiques for this type of purchase. Any of the local boutiques I have dealt with in the past tend to deal in higher end (and thus more costly) components and do not seem to have this item in stock.

Thank you again for your reply I really appreciate it! The link to the switcher is also something I may think of while I possibly try to save up more cash for an even better receiver although for my usage it might be overkill to go with anything more.
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post #5 of 14 Old 02-09-2012, 04:19 PM
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Note that if you decide not to upgrade the AVR or use the HDMI switch, your TV will put out a DD 5.1 signal if that's what the source is sending (eg. HD channels) so you would want to confirm the digital coax --> RCA converter was able to convert a 5.1 signal as the less expensive converters can only convert PCM 2.0 signals. The HDMI switch I suggested has a setting that you can set to PCM 2.0 to ensure a 5.1 signal is converted to 2.0.

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post #6 of 14 Old 02-09-2012, 07:42 PM
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I bought a Denon 1800 dual voltage back around the year 2000. It sounds terrific.... I recently bought a Denon 1312 which is inexpensive at $200.00 at the time. Have even seen it lower than that. It has all 4 HDMI inputs and 1 HDMI output for monitor/TV..... The output (watts) of the new 1312 suppoused to be more and has 7.1 versus 5.1

Also, DTS, Pro logic II and other DSP modes are present on newer receiver, but they sound generic. The old AVR 1800 sounds is so much powerful. This is not your typical high end nor mid range AVR, but it packs a punch (old AVR).

The Denon AVR 1800 has a THD of .05 versus the AVR 1312 THD of .07 I noticed that the Ohms for the newer receiver are 6 versus 8 for the old receiver. When it comes to ohms; the smaller the ohms in a speaker, the less required power to drive them. In this case, the cheaper and newer receiver has the "same" power or "more" but at a lower ohms and THD. THD has a role on the power and fidelity.

I noticed that the sound on newer Denon was not as clean. Even my kids and my wife noticed the sound difference. I was shocked that they could even tell. I do have a set of nice speakers to compliment my vintage AVR 1800; which only cost me about $200-$250 in Germany as an open box. But this receiver sounds better than most out there and has enough power. When it comes to Denon now days, You would have to fork over 1-2k in order to get specs as the one's I have in my older and cheaper receiver.

I am being very critical here. Perhaps you would not even hear the difference and the sound quality is not a big deal. The price for the new AVR 1312 is not bad at all. But when my kids and wife can tell the difference in sound and couldn't wait for me to return the old receiver in its place, it made me happy that they appreciate the sound quality and they have develop an appreciation for HI-FI.

I was just merely doing a test to see if the new receiver could measure to my old one. This is not the case. I returned the new AVR 1312 back to the loft (for the kids entertainment) and mated to Boston Acoustic bookshelves with a Yamaha sub and sounds pretty good. This receiver is perfect for this type of set-up. Sony PS3/Bluray hooked to new AVR and to the TV via HDMI...... This sort of set-up might be what you are looking for. Give it a shot, but never assume newer and more expensive receivers automatically mean that they will be actually better than what you already have........

I have tried newer Yamaha receivers with my speakers (B & W) and they have nothing on my old Denon AVR 1800. My brother has both Yamaha and Harmon & Kardon, Bose satellites, Klipsh SUB.

Same scenario, none of those come close to mating Denon and B & W speakers.....
If you can stick with denon, do it, but make sure newer receiver is rated for 8 ohms and whatever watts the THD does not exceed .05

I recently saw a Denon 3808CI for a very good price on Craigslist. Even this website has some equipment for sale I believe. This is the first time I log/post in this site.

Feel free to ask any questions if any......

All these comments I made are not speculations or assumptions but rather personal opinion of mine.... I have owned Sony, Technics, JVC, Panasonic, Yamaha, Pioneer and others. I have also heard the Harmon & Kardon's, Onkyo's, and similar..... Denon in my opinion is the best.........

Of course, you cannot compare to other premier brands either such as McIntosh, Krell, Carver and the likes.....

One more thing. If Sound fidely is a key, consider monster cables for the speakers. I found that is very minimal if any the difference in sound quality when upgrading to HDMI. The only thing is better is the picture quality on a TV and the fact that you do not have to deal with multiple cables for a specific component. I connect the PS3/Bluray to TV via HDMI, then send the sound signal from tv to receiver via optical. It sounds superb. (This set-up is with DENON 1800)

When I put PS3 directly to DENON 1312, sound quality was no comparable to the sound of old receiver and just pluggin cables the old fashioned way.

This may be different with a more expensive AVR......

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post #7 of 14 Old 02-10-2012, 06:21 AM
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^^
As I noted in my previous post, the Denon 1312 is the only model that doesn't use Audyssey MultEQ and would only be recommended for a kids room or other environment where even a modicum of audio fidelity wasn't required. A number of owners of older Denon models (eg. 3800, 3801, etc.) were very impressed when even dropping down to a lower level model MultEQ model over their older non Audyssey mid level models.

Quote:
Originally Posted by THX605 View Post

The Denon AVR 1800 has a THD of .05 versus the AVR 1312 THD of .07 I noticed that the Ohms for the newer receiver are 6 versus 8 for the old receiver. When it comes to ohms; the smaller the ohms in a speaker, the less required power to drive them. In this case, the cheaper and newer receiver has the "same" power or "more" but at a lower ohms and THD. THD has a role on the power and fidelity.

The human ear cannot discern a < 1% THD so the difference between 0.05% and 0.07% is moot. And when it comes to ohms, it takes far more power to drive a 6 ohm speaker than it does an 8 ohm speaker to the same volume, so an AVR that is rated at 4 ohms or 6 ohms is much more rubust and capable than is a basic 8 ohm AVR.

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post #8 of 14 Old 02-11-2012, 11:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks so much for the replies. I am pretty sure I will be going with the Denon 1712. I do like Denon components (obviously lol) and have no experience with Onkyo other then seeing they have a decent following and seemed to be fairly inexpensive as compared to features. I can get a 1712 for $379 plus 14% tax at BestBuy atm and I think that will be as cheap as I will get one here in Canada where I live. Again, Thanks!
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post #9 of 14 Old 03-24-2012, 10:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Sorry for the double post but I did not want to have to re-write my orig post and I wanted to update my status on this subject.

There are 2 authorized Denon dealers in my city. I went to one and left more confused then I did going in. lol

I explained I wanted to purchase the 1712. I was then told to go with the 1912 because it has "way more features for only $125 more". When I mentioned the 1712 had Audyssey MultiEQ XT and the 1912 did not and that I was more interested in fidelity than in gimmicks and features since I already have a smart tv and smart bd, I then had the 2212ci pushed on me. The 2212ci is $250 more expensive than the 1712 I originally wanted (and was suggested by jdsmoothie - thanks again) and frankly I would have to save for a while longer and I am not sure if it is worth it to me. It was stressed upon me that the ability to flash it over the net was paramount since Denon "tend to need to have the firmware upgraded for various issues".

As I stated before I am a pc tech and know flashing firmware can be important but not to the extent this salesguy was pushing. I am a gal and very girly girl looking so I KNOW most tech sales guys try to work me until I open my mouth and show I know more about the products than they do. However, in this instance I was unprepared for as much info as I should have had regarding the IN-Command series. My bad. I should have been more prepared but have been very busy as of late.

Anyway, I will be going to the other authorized Denon dealer in my city in the upcoming week and want to be more prepared.

With the speakers I have listed in the first post, will the MultiEQ XT be a big difference considering the ages of my Energy powered sub and the Tannoys or would the 1912 be a better bet for the ethernet/flashing capabilities? Or, would I be THAT much better off waiting a couple of months more (sadly I am not using any audio really right now since I cannot use the tv with it and have not been watching any DVDs as of late which is the only way I can push sound using the tv atm) and going with the entry level IN-Command?

I know much of this is subjective and really a choice I need to make on my own but I think you kind folks will be able to direct me a bit in this situation. I did listen to all of the receivers listed above as well as some WAY out of my price league atm but they also had much newer and far more expensive speakers hooked up to them so I really cannot derive much from that experience. I rather think that the 1712 jdsmoothie recommended IS the way to go for me but I need to have the above questions answered so as to set my mind at ease. I am blonde and you know how WE are. lmao! Thanks again so much in advance!
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post #10 of 14 Old 03-24-2012, 02:20 PM
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^^
I'll stand by my original 1712 reco .... the networking models generally need firmware updates primarily because Denon is still trying to resolve networking issues with them for the most part.

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post #11 of 14 Old 03-24-2012, 04:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

^^
I'll stand by my original 1712 reco .... the networking models generally need firmware updates primarily because Denon is still trying to resolve networking issues with them for the most part.

Thank you so very much for your response! I will go to the other dealer this week and buy the 1712. I also have some questions regarding my speakers with this receiver. At the moment, along with my Energy powered AS-90 I have the 2 Tannoy C10s as fronts, C6s as rears and 2 C8s (mounted above tv on pivotellis - side by side & angled downward) as my center channel. I do know that parallel cuts their impedance in half but I have had them like this since I purchased the avr810 and have had np with it. Since purchasing a real center channel will take me a bit of time to be able to afford what I would like to get, will running those Tannoys as they are now with the 1712 be an issue? Would I be better to just use one of them as a center until I can afford a center or should I use all of them in a 7.1 type config but no center channel and rely on phantom center?

I also want to add that jdsmoothie really works his ass off in this forum as do some other folks (batpig for one but there are many more) who I have seen posting a ton of help. This is a great forum for advice and good karma is due to all you helpful people!
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post #12 of 14 Old 03-24-2012, 04:38 PM
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^^
I would suggest only using a single C8 as you want the dialog coming from a single center source (also ideally not a phantom speaker).

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post #13 of 14 Old 03-24-2012, 04:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

^^
I would suggest only using a single C8 as you want the dialog coming from a single center source (also ideally not a phantom speaker).

Thank you kind sir! I really appreciate all your good advice and willingness to read walls of text. lol
I will use a single center on the 1712 and I wish you an awesome weekend!
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post #14 of 14 Old 08-07-2013, 02:32 PM
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Sorry to bring up an old thread, but I too have a vintage Denon AVR-810 and need help!

I just bought some Klipsch FC-20's and for the moment, they will serve as the only speakers connected to my Denon and I want to be able to hook up my digital cable box and XBOX360 as well.

Can I get away with a simple DAC w/ Toslink as the one below:

http://www.amazon.com/SANOXY%C2%AE-AGPtek-Digital-Optical-Converter/dp/B005DIRI6I/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1375911000&sr=1-1&keywords=digital+audio+converter

Or, since I will eventually buy more speakers to complete the surround system, will this device aid in getting a true 5.1 surround?

http://www.amazon.com/Panlong-Audio-Digital-Decoder-Converter/dp/B00AMC2J1Y/ref=sr_1_13?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1375905729&sr=1-13&keywords=analog+to+digital+converter

From what I am understanding, this old Denon can only simulate Dolby Pro Logic from two stereo inputs (analog) and if that's the case then link #1 seems to be the winner.

Thoughts?

Thanks in advance!
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