How to produce 44.1khz? - AVS Forum
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Old 02-10-2012, 01:07 PM - Thread Starter
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I have ripped all my CD to iTunes in Apple Lossless. I have a dedicated Mac just for music playback, connected through optical to my receiver. I understand that all CD's recorded at 44.1Khz.

Since my receiver is showing that the signal it gets from computer is 48khz, how do I reproduce the original 44.1kHz to receiver?
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Old 02-10-2012, 01:41 PM
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Can't. Well, I suppose you could once again convert to analog then once again digitize at 44.1. Would be easier just to download the CDs bit for bit to your computer. IDK why you'd want to. It's now in a 48 khz, there's nothing at all magic about the 44.1 khz sampling rate.
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Old 02-10-2012, 01:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

Can't. Well, I suppose you could once again convert to analog then once again digitize at 44.1. Would be easier just to download the CDs bit for bit to your computer. IDK why you'd want to. It's now in a 48 khz, there's nothing at all magic about the 44.1 khz sampling rate.

How do you copy bit by bit? Once it's sampled, and converted to 48khz, then converted to 44.1... fidelity will be compromised.
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Old 02-10-2012, 01:52 PM
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CDs are not recorded AT 44.1 Khz; that is the reference oscillator frequency used for sampling, however. They are recorded from 20 Hz to 21 Khz, and rolled off below 22.05 Khz.

Some DACs will convert a sampling rate of 48 Khz to 44.1 Khz, but that usually involves processing that reduces quality. Why would you want to convert it?

Many digital tape recorders use a 48 Khz sampling frequency.



Quote:
Originally Posted by CHRIS650 View Post

I have ripped all my CD to iTunes in Apple Lossless. I have a dedicated Mac just for music playback, connected through optical to my receiver. I understand that all CD's recorded at 44.1Khz.

Since my receiver is showing that the signal it gets from computer is 48khz, how do I reproduce the original 44.1kHz to receiver?

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Old 02-10-2012, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHRIS650 View Post

How do you copy bit by bit? Once it's sampled, and converted to 48khz, then converted to 44.1... fidelity will be compromised.

Put a cd in your computer. Copy it to the hard drive,. Now you have it bit by bit. And it is a huge file.

Again, why try to go back to the CD sampling rate. THere is no magic whatsoever to it.
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Old 02-10-2012, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

CDs are not recorded AT 44.1 Khz; that is the reference oscillator frequency used for sampling, however. They are recorded from 20 Hz to 21 Khz, and rolled off below 22.05 Khz.

Some DACs will convert a sampling rate of 48 Khz to 44.1 Khz, but that usually involves processing that reduces quality. Why would you want to convert it?

Many digital tape recorders use a 48 Khz sampling frequency.

A little confusing. THe frequency range of a CD is up to about 21KHz. The sampling rate is 44.1kHz. You have to have 2 samples for each wave or you get nasty stuff happening. So they filter the analog sound steeply at about 20 KHz to keep garbage from occurring. But a CD is indeed encoded at a smpling rate of 44.1 Khz. Chances are if it was recorded recently it was recorded at 48 KHz or 96 KHz in the studio. IDK if anybody even makes a 44.1 KHz specific recording device anymore.
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Old 02-10-2012, 02:33 PM
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If it really mattered, there may be recording software that can downsample from 48 KHz to 44.1. But IMO you would not end up with bit for bit indentical bitstream versus the 44.1 original. The "original" has either been upsampled, interpolating new sampling points, or converted to analog and digitized/compressed using a 48 KHz sampling rate. Any further manipulation of the digital stream is simply further manipulation, if that makes any sense.

But I have never even dipped my toe in multichannel recording software (I mean past 2 channels) and IDK what's out there, or what a reasonably priced solution would be.

FWIW, I'd be shocked of good quality software conducting an upsampling followed by downsampling would yield audible differences, but the bits of the downsampled version would be different from the original version, it seems to me. So again, why bother if you've already got the material in good lossless format at a sampling rate that is appropriate and that your DACs can handle?
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Old 02-10-2012, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHRIS650 View Post

I have ripped all my CD to iTunes in Apple Lossless. I have a dedicated Mac just for music playback, connected through optical to my receiver. I understand that all CD's recorded at 44.1Khz.

Since my receiver is showing that the signal it gets from computer is 48khz, how do I reproduce the original 44.1kHz to receiver?


Rip the CD's all over again? Did you rip the CDs at a 48 kHz rate? The answer must be yes. See if you can select the 44.1 kHz rate when you rip a CD via Apple Lossless.

The 48 kHz rate is standard for a DVD, and 44.1kHz is standard for CD.
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Old 02-10-2012, 10:46 PM
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Did you check the properties of the actual files to make sure that they were actually ripped at 48khz? I say this because my pc's soundcard was set to output all audio at 48khz when i first got it. I had to manually change the setting to allow it to send audio in its original form.

Worth a look before you go through the hassle of ripping that stuff all over again.

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Old 02-10-2012, 11:25 PM
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DVD-A 96Khz
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Old 02-10-2012, 11:49 PM
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Aren't there parameters when you rip to Apple Lossess to retain original sample rate? I have no messed with it, as 160 seems good enough for me.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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Old 02-11-2012, 12:03 AM
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Your receiver says it's decoding a 48khz signal? So when you ripped to Lossless, u inadvertently used 48khz sampling rate? If so there is no harm done, so you over re-sample it, u just ended up with a bigger file than if you kept the original 44khz, but I don't think there is any sound quality damage. To me u can leave it.

If u had UNDER-sample say by using 22khz, THEN we would have a problem.
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Old 02-11-2012, 02:07 AM
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I would say it is ripped properly but not playing back properly. Make sure u go to your audio output control panel and set 44.1 kHz output. You can also look under properties for the particular track in iTunes and it will say sample rate is 44.1khz. If you are using a Mac, go to audio midi setup to change the sample rate.
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Old 02-11-2012, 10:07 AM
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Hi CHRIS650,

Your receiver will handle a 48 KHz sampling rate just as well as it will handle a 44.1 sampling rate for digital music streams coming in. It has to be able to do this, since DVD's are 48 KHz; while CD's are 44.1 KHz.

So that's not a problem, but it's still preferable that a conversion from 44.1 to 48 KHz is not taking place though. And that leaves the remaining question: where is this conversion happening?

And as mentioned by bommai, if you have ripped correctly, the change is most likely due to a configuration setting in the audio output settings of your computer.

Regards
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Old 02-11-2012, 12:31 PM
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Uhh... a lot of bad posts in this thread.

iTunes will correctly rip CDs to Apple Lossless without resampling them to 48khz. Right click a track you've ripped, and go to Info. The sample rate should say 44.1khz.

Your computer is outputting a 48khz signal from the sound card. This doesn't have a negative effect though, it simply allows more headroom for the audio. I can run my output at 96khz from my computer's optical out, and lossless content is perfectly fine.

If you still want to "fix" it, start Audio MIDI Setup from your Application -> Utilities folder. You can actually bump it up to 96khz, or reduce it to 44.1khz. You shouldn't hear a difference with CD content.
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Old 02-11-2012, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zim2411 View Post

Uhh... a lot of bad posts in this thread.

Including the following statement

Quote:
...computer is outputting a 48khz signal from the sound card. This doesn't have a negative effect though, it simply allows more headroom for the audio.


Err, no it doesn't -modifying the sampling rate will not change the headroom of the signal at all.

But a change from 44.1 to 48 KHz sampling rate will be requiring some interpolation going on; and most people would probably prefer to avoid this.

And so that's probably why Chris would like to correct the issue he is experiencing.
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Old 02-12-2012, 10:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

Aren't there parameters when you rip to Apple Lossess to retain original sample rate? I have no messed with it, as 160 seems good enough for me.

Lossless means Lossless!!!!
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Old 02-12-2012, 10:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zim2411 View Post

Uhh... a lot of bad posts in this thread.

iTunes will correctly rip CDs to Apple Lossless without resampling them to 48khz. Right click a track you've ripped, and go to Info. The sample rate should say 44.1khz.

Your computer is outputting a 48khz signal from the sound card. This doesn't have a negative effect though, it simply allows more headroom for the audio. I can run my output at 96khz from my computer's optical out, and lossless content is perfectly fine.

If you still want to "fix" it, start Audio MIDI Setup from your Application -> Utilities folder. You can actually bump it up to 96khz, or reduce it to 44.1khz. You shouldn't hear a difference with CD content.

This is the only post that's remotely close to what the real issue is, and this person understands what I was referring to.

Now, 48 is not a whole factor of 44.1. I want the bit perfect playback!
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Old 02-12-2012, 10:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twain250 View Post

Including the following statement




Err, no it doesn't -modifying the sampling rate will not change the headroom of the signal at all.

But a change from 44.1 to 48 KHz sampling rate will be requiring some interpolation going on; and most people would probably prefer to avoid this.

And so that's probably why Chris would like to correct the issue he is experiencing.

Correct! That's my question. To avoid interpolation!!!!
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Old 02-12-2012, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHRIS650 View Post

Correct! That's my question. To avoid interpolation!!!!

ANd you already have interpolation, assuming the apple lossless files at 48 K were created strictly in the digital domain. The only not to have interpolation is to put your 48K files in the trash and create new lossless files from the 44.1K source, as I suggested before. IDK what programs would do this digitally.

if either or both systems convert to analog before creating the lossless file, the issue is essentially moot. The analog signal that your preamp, amp and speakers receive does not have a sampling rate, it's an analog signal created by converting the digital to analog. If the system used to create the apple lossless or flac or whatever files converts the signal to analog to create a lossless compressed file, then you're neither gaining nor losing anything. THe lossless compression occurs during redigitization of an analog signal. TO the It is essentially as if the original recording were in whatever sampling rate the lossless compresion uses.
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Old 02-12-2012, 11:57 AM
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right click the actual file and check the properties. I am sure you will see 44.1 khz. I think you will find that your sound card is outputting 48khz as already mentioned. I just checked mine and it is set at 48 khz, what realtek is calling studio quality. Let us know what you find.
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Old 02-12-2012, 02:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socketman View Post

right click the actual file and check the properties. I am sure you will see 44.1 khz. I think you will find that your sound card is outputting 48khz as already mentioned. I just checked mine and it is set at 48 khz, what realtek is calling studio quality. Let us know what you find.

correct
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Old 02-12-2012, 03:13 PM - Thread Starter
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when i set up audio midi to 44.1:

how will that behave with other audio... dvd playing, website browsing...

since all my CD's are ripped lossless, 44.1 kHz sampling, does this mean my computer is playing without interpolation?
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Old 02-12-2012, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHRIS650 View Post

when i set up audio midi to 44.1:

how will that behave with other audio... dvd playing, website browsing...

since all my CD's are ripped lossless, 44.1 kHz sampling, does this mean my computer is playing without interpolation?

AFAIK, a DAC that can handle any specific sampling frequency and bit depth will handle that sampling frequency and bit depth when they are presented. My AVR does not freak out when I switch from CDs to SACD or BD lossless at 48 or 96 KHz. Is that your question? If the DAC works, it'll work fine.

If you're talking about music MIDI, MIDI itself is a way to trigger and manipulate sounds. Those sounds may be in WAV files or AFAIK in any other format in the world. MIDI just says start the note now at this level, sustain it til I release the key, etc. If your MIDI voices are in a PCM format at a bitdepth and sampling frequency your DAC can handle, it will work fine.


If you are mixing digitally what your DAC sees is the output of the mixing software, in whatever format it exists. IF your mixer can handle different inputs simulteneously, it has to put them into the same digital format in order to put them together.


I'm a bit lost on your comment that your CDs are ripped lossless 44.1 KHz sampling since you say they play back at 48 KHz. At least that's what I thought your initial concern was. The ripped results can only play at 48 KHz if they are at 48 KHz.
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Old 02-12-2012, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHRIS650 View Post

when i set up audio midi to 44.1:

how will that behave with other audio... dvd playing, website browsing...

since all my CD's are ripped lossless, 44.1 kHz sampling, does this mean my computer is playing without interpolation?

Are you using a Mac? If so, there are a couple of things you should be aware of. In Audio Midi Setup, choose 44.1kHz, 24-bit or 16 bit (it does not matter). Then start iTunes and play. Your receiver should say 44.1kHz. If you have some songs in iTunes that are originally 96kHz or 48kHz, then you will have to quit iTunes, change it in Audio Midi setup and then relaunch iTunes and playback again. This is a deficiency in iTunes. You can overcome this in a couple of ways. If most of your music is 44.1kHz (all CDs are), then leave the audio midi setup in 44.1kHz. BTW, eyeTV and DVD player will change this output to a encoded bitstream and that will use dolby digital, etc. That will be fine. Within iTunes you will want to make sure that it is 44.1 (for bit perfect playback).

If you want to avoid this, you can buy a couple of different playback software. One of the cheapest one is Audirvana Plus. Just google it and get a 14 day trial. Enable iTunes integration and iTunes will use Audirvana to playback. Audirvana will automatically change the output sample rate to match the file's sample rate. It will also use hog mode so that the audio device is entirely taken over by Audirvana. There are other software for this purpose such as Amarra, Decibel, Pure Music, etc. They are all more expensive though.

In my system, I use a Musical Fidelity V-Link asynchronous USB to Toslink converter to output my music to my NAD T775HD receiver. The V-Link supports upto 96KHz including 88.2kHz also. I have tried out all the third party software that I mentioned above. Audirvana is pretty good - I might be buying it. It is $50.
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Old 02-12-2012, 06:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bommai View Post

Are you using a Mac? If so, there are a couple of things you should be aware of. In Audio Midi Setup, choose 44.1kHz, 24-bit or 16 bit (it does not matter). Then start iTunes and play. Your receiver should say 44.1kHz. If you have some songs in iTunes that are originally 96kHz or 48kHz, then you will have to quit iTunes, change it in Audio Midi setup and then relaunch iTunes and playback again. This is a deficiency in iTunes. You can overcome this in a couple of ways. If most of your music is 44.1kHz (all CDs are), then leave the audio midi setup in 44.1kHz. BTW, eyeTV and DVD player will change this output to a encoded bitstream and that will use dolby digital, etc. That will be fine. Within iTunes you will want to make sure that it is 44.1 (for bit perfect playback).

If you want to avoid this, you can buy a couple of different playback software. One of the cheapest one is Audirvana Plus. Just google it and get a 14 day trial. Enable iTunes integration and iTunes will use Audirvana to playback. Audirvana will automatically change the output sample rate to match the file's sample rate. It will also use hog mode so that the audio device is entirely taken over by Audirvana. There are other software for this purpose such as Amarra, Decibel, Pure Music, etc. They are all more expensive though.

In my system, I use a Musical Fidelity V-Link asynchronous USB to Toslink converter to output my music to my NAD T775HD receiver. The V-Link supports upto 96KHz including 88.2kHz also. I have tried out all the third party software that I mentioned above. Audirvana is pretty good - I might be buying it. It is $50.

Bommai, you are always right on the money. You answer the question to the point, while others just talking irrelevantly.

Yes, all my iTunes music is ripped from CD lossless. So, I will set Midi to 44.1.

So you are saying that, with that setting, i will no problem playing dvd files etc with other software?
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Old 02-29-2012, 03:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Also, does that also mean that as long as I keep Midi to 44.1 and play any CD's I have using iTunes on that Mac Mini, all my music will be bit perfect from the original recording? I always wonder that, if leave the DAC to the receiver, why would we ever need to buy expensive CD player (audiophile grade, etc.)? In the case of music playing, re we just using computer as a pure digital transport? Every digital bit is a bit.

I was told my HK 7550's DAC is pretty good, so I guess I am all covered. Or, am I?
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Old 02-29-2012, 10:04 PM
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Another thread that proves ignorance is bliss. My tin ear can't hear an extra bit or missing bit and I can just enjoy the music.
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Old 02-29-2012, 11:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHRIS650 View Post

Also, does that also mean that as long as I keep Midi to 44.1 and play any CD's I have using iTunes on that Mac Mini, all my music will be bit perfect from the original recording? I always wonder that, if leave the DAC to the receiver, why would we ever need to buy expensive CD player (audiophile grade, etc.)? In the case of music playing, re we just using computer as a pure digital transport? Every digital bit is a bit.

I was told my HK 7550's DAC is pretty good, so I guess I am all covered. Or, am I?

Chris - thanks for the compliments earlier!

As long as you have certain things like Crossfade, sound enhancer, etc turned off, iTunes will play back bit perfect audio through your optical output to your receiver. It will sound great. However, I have also used trial versions of Audirvana, Decibel, Amarra, Pure Music, and found them all to be a little bit better than iTunes but I could not really place the difference.

Also, enable "Use error correction when reading CDs" option in the import tab. That helps with CDs with errors. However, this only helps if you are newly ripping music.
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