Recommendations for 5 channel amp. - AVS Forum

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Tweaked05's Avatar Tweaked05
12:23 PM Liked: 25
post #1 of 28
03-01-2012 | Posts: 486
Joined: Dec 2011
I'm looking for a 5 channel amp for less than $1000. So far I have seen the Emotiva XPA-5 and that is it. Are there any others for that price range and how do they compare to the Emotiva?
KidHorn's Avatar KidHorn
12:30 PM Liked: 240
post #2 of 28
03-01-2012 | Posts: 2,965
Joined: Nov 2003
Outlaw audio has a couple of 7 channel amps. You can use 5 of the channels if you want. I think they're generally comparable to the emotiva's, but you get fewer wpc per dollar spent.
tvuong's Avatar tvuong
04:28 PM Liked: 118
post #3 of 28
03-01-2012 | Posts: 1,736
Joined: Dec 2000
I had the Sherbourn amp and like it.
Tweaked05's Avatar Tweaked05
06:56 PM Liked: 25
post #4 of 28
03-01-2012 | Posts: 486
Joined: Dec 2011
both of those amps exceed my $1k budget, and the outlaw that did fit in budget was much less powerful. Are there any other 200w amps for less than $1k?
joehonest's Avatar joehonest
07:19 PM Liked: 30
post #5 of 28
03-01-2012 | Posts: 983
Joined: May 2011
You can get 3 crown xls1000 or 1500, these amps will blow you away. they are not as "HIFI" as the Emotiva XPA-5. But they are made to play hard and loud.
lovinthehd's Avatar lovinthehd
07:48 PM Liked: 1027
post #6 of 28
03-01-2012 | Posts: 7,340
Joined: Dec 2007
If price is king, try used...

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/adc...r-amplifier--2
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/anthem-mca-5-power-amp
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/sun...nnel-amplifier

Depends what power per channel you're looking for, too.
jjackkrash's Avatar jjackkrash
08:57 PM Liked: 11
post #7 of 28
03-01-2012 | Posts: 571
Joined: Nov 2010
I am not sure I'd characterize the XPA-5 as "more powerful" than the Outlaw 7125 that is in the same price range, let alone characterize it as "much more powerful."

If you look closely at the specs on the 200watt/5channel offerings from Outlaw and Emotiva, they are not even in the same ballpark as far as power supply.

Power transister output devices per channel:
Outlaw 7500 - 12
Emotiva XPA5 - 6

Total Capacitor Capacity:
Outlaw 7500 - 150,000 mf
Emotiva XPA5 - 60,000 mf

Power Transformer (Power Supply) Capacity:
Outlaw 7500 - 2 X 1.6 kVA (3200 kVA) torroidal with independent windings per channel so acts more like monoblocks
Emotiva XPA5 - 1 X 1.2 kVA

****

Outlaw 7125:

125 watts X 7 @ .05% THD (Bench tests have shown this amp to deliver 140+ watts per channel without clipping)
1.6 KVA power supply
140,000 cap supply
damping- 400
6 outputs per channel


The 7125 (7 x 125 watts) has a 1.6 kVA transformer divided into seven channels, which is at least as robust of a power supply as the XPA-5's 1.2 kVA transformer divided into 5 channels. I'd be surprised if the XPA-5 delivered any more real-world power than the 7125.

It might not make a difference to you, but if it does, Outlaw is manufactured by ATI here in the USA (although IIRC some of the component parts come from overseas).
smfins's Avatar smfins
09:20 PM Liked: 10
post #8 of 28
03-01-2012 | Posts: 148
Joined: Feb 2012
How do the crown xls1000's do as sub amps? i would assume that is where they would be their best?
dm's Avatar dm
09:37 PM Liked: 13
post #9 of 28
03-01-2012 | Posts: 1,999
Joined: Jul 2001
Quote:
Originally Posted by smfins View Post

How do the crown xls1000's do as sub amps? i would assume that is where they would be their best?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1295375
MichaelJHuman's Avatar MichaelJHuman
09:38 PM Liked: 118
post #10 of 28
03-01-2012 | Posts: 18,955
Joined: Nov 2006
Why would XLS 1000 be best at being a sub amp? It's a stereo pro amp. A better choice for a subwoofer amp would probably be one with a bass oriented EQ, right? I mean the XLS 1000 was not specifically designed as a subwoofer amp. I am sure it works just fine in that capacity, but again why would be is best at that which it was not designed specifically for?
MichaelJHuman's Avatar MichaelJHuman
09:43 PM Liked: 118
post #11 of 28
03-01-2012 | Posts: 18,955
Joined: Nov 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjackkrash View Post

I am not sure I'd characterize the XPA-5 as "more powerful" than the Outlaw 7125 that is in the same price range, let alone characterize it as "much more powerful."

If you look closely at the specs on the 200watt/5channel offerings from Outlaw and Emotiva, they are not even in the same ballpark as far as power supply.

Power transister output devices per channel:
Outlaw 7500 - 12
Emotiva XPA5 - 6

Total Capacitor Capacity:
Outlaw 7500 - 150,000 mf
Emotiva XPA5 - 60,000 mf

Power Transformer (Power Supply) Capacity:
Outlaw 7500 - 2 X 1.6 kVA (3200 kVA) torroidal with independent windings per channel so acts more like monoblocks
Emotiva XPA5 - 1 X 1.2 kVA

****

Outlaw 7125:

125 watts X 7 @ .05% THD (Bench tests have shown this amp to deliver 140+ watts per channel without clipping)
1.6 KVA power supply
140,000 cap supply
damping- 400
6 outputs per channel


The 7125 (7 x 125 watts) has a 1.6 kVA transformer divided into seven channels, which is at least as robust of a power supply as the XPA-5's 1.2 kVA transformer divided into 5 channels. I'd be surprised if the XPA-5 delivered any more real-world power than the 7125.

It might not make a difference to you, but if it does, Outlaw is manufactured by ATI here in the USA (although IIRC some of the component parts come from overseas).

I have long been interested in the 7125. But maybe it's better to just buy a rack of class D pro amps. They are light, if a bit bulky.

At present I use an XLS 1000 Crown amp, the Emotiva XPA-3 and my receivers amps for my 7 channels of needed amplification. They all work well (with the small annoyance of hiss from the XLS 1000, but that's only when you are standing right next to the rear surround speakers connected to it.)
jjackkrash's Avatar jjackkrash
09:59 PM Liked: 11
post #12 of 28
03-01-2012 | Posts: 571
Joined: Nov 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

I have long been interested in the 7125. But maybe it's better to just buy a rack of class D pro amps. They are light, if a bit bulky.

At present I use an XLS 1000 Crown amp, the Emotiva XPA-3 and my receivers amps for my 7 channels of needed amplification. They all work well (with the small annoyance of hiss from the XLS 1000, but that's only when you are standing right next to the rear surround speakers connected to it.)

I've had my eye on that 7500 for a while, but I just can't justify it right now. I have a 5.1 set up with a big sub powered solely by a Denon 4311 and the sub's amp and everything crossed over at 90 Hz. I decided several nights ago to watch Transformers-Dark Side of the Moon at 0.0 and leave it there for the whole movie. Wow, it was just too much and I kept waiting for the cops to knock on my door--it was crazy how loud it got. The Denon didn't even break a sweat and I don't see how more power would give me any more performance that I could actually use.
Tweaked05's Avatar Tweaked05
10:00 PM Liked: 25
post #13 of 28
03-01-2012 | Posts: 486
Joined: Dec 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjackkrash View Post

I am not sure I'd characterize the XPA-5 as "more powerful" than the Outlaw 7125 that is in the same price range, let alone characterize it as "much more powerful."

If you look closely at the specs on the 200watt/5channel offerings from Outlaw and Emotiva, they are not even in the same ballpark as far as power supply.

Power transister output devices per channel:
Outlaw 7500 - 12
Emotiva XPA5 - 6

Total Capacitor Capacity:
Outlaw 7500 - 150,000 mf
Emotiva XPA5 - 60,000 mf

Power Transformer (Power Supply) Capacity:
Outlaw 7500 - 2 X 1.6 kVA (3200 kVA) torroidal with independent windings per channel so acts more like monoblocks
Emotiva XPA5 - 1 X 1.2 kVA

****

Outlaw 7125:

125 watts X 7 @ .05% THD (Bench tests have shown this amp to deliver 140+ watts per channel without clipping)
1.6 KVA power supply
140,000 cap supply
damping- 400
6 outputs per channel


The 7125 (7 x 125 watts) has a 1.6 kVA transformer divided into seven channels, which is at least as robust of a power supply as the XPA-5's 1.2 kVA transformer divided into 5 channels. I'd be surprised if the XPA-5 delivered any more real-world power than the 7125.

It might not make a difference to you, but if it does, Outlaw is manufactured by ATI here in the USA (although IIRC some of the component parts come from overseas).

Thank you for breaking down the 7125 for me. Being that I am fairly new to this, could you also break down the XPA-5 so that I can make an apples to apples comparison?
jjackkrash's Avatar jjackkrash
10:14 PM Liked: 11
post #14 of 28
03-01-2012 | Posts: 571
Joined: Nov 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tweaked05 View Post

Thank you for breaking down the 7125 for me. Being that I am fairly new to this, could you also break down the XPA-5 so that I can make an apples to apples comparison?

I haven't seen a bench test on the XPA-5, but I'd sure like to. My guess is from its power supply it would bench very close to the 7125 in terms of real-world power to each channel driven. What kind of speakers do you need to drive? I would think either the XPA-5 or the 7125 would drive most reasonably efficient speakers as loud as you could stand to listen to them in all but the biggest rooms.
MichaelJHuman's Avatar MichaelJHuman
10:27 PM Liked: 118
post #15 of 28
03-01-2012 | Posts: 18,955
Joined: Nov 2006
Emo has published their own plots from their analyzer. However, it's been suggested the plots are from a sweep...that the amp's would not fare as well if they were measured with the power being put out for minutes at a time.

The combined power from the XPA-3, 600 watts, seems to exceed the rating of the transformer used in it (assuming typical class AB efficiency.) Of course with real material, the amps don't have to put out 200 watts into all channels at the same time most likely, or if they do, it's for a very short interval.
smfins's Avatar smfins
11:04 PM Liked: 10
post #16 of 28
03-01-2012 | Posts: 148
Joined: Feb 2012
@ M Huffman... Because it can be bridged mono to a large amount of whats, and the Crown amps are known to have alot of "balls". I actually had a Com tech 210 bridged running my sub and these go on ebay for about $100 and it totally killed the Adcom i used and now the Marantz. It went out on me so I'm considering going with another Crown Com tech even though they are called "P.A amps" Have you had any experience with the Com tech line of Crown? they are older amps and are less expensive. Another reason I made that statement is because the post above stated that they weren't as Hi Fi as the other amps being compared, so i fugure Bass wouldn't show that fault as much.
MichaelJHuman's Avatar MichaelJHuman
11:10 PM Liked: 118
post #17 of 28
03-01-2012 | Posts: 18,955
Joined: Nov 2006
A lot of amps can be bridged. I read of a lot of people buying Behringer Europower amps for subs, probably because they are about the cheapest respected pro amp on the market (there's cheaper, but not respected
smfins's Avatar smfins
11:15 PM Liked: 10
post #18 of 28
03-01-2012 | Posts: 148
Joined: Feb 2012
Yes, when My Crown Com tech went out, I should have bought another one! I mean that thing kicked some major butt on my sub and really hit the low notes well. The marantz ma700 that I'm using now doesn't even compare! Thinking about using the marantz as a center and adding a quality two channel amp for left and right. I plan on using my HK 3600's outputs for the 4 surrounds.
DonH50's Avatar DonH50
07:45 AM Liked: 295
post #19 of 28
03-02-2012 | Posts: 6,343
Joined: Feb 2010
Smaller capacitors mean less energy for long-term energy storage. No idea if that will matter in the real world. The most likely sonic impact is in the bass (at least IME; that is where I have heard and measured differences in the past when I have added capacitors).

The transformer capacity only matters if you run at full-scale output for extended time. Average power levels are most often only a few watts. The transformer won't die if you exceed it's capacity briefly, you won't even notice. It will limit current if you exceed its design margin (I do not know what their margin is).

Unless the output transistors are the same type and similarly biased the comparison of quantity is meaningless. I do not know either way.

There are plenty reviews of the Emotivas showing real-world (or least decent bench test) performance meets or exceeds their specifications.

Bottom line for me and in IMO only: Little difference in real-world performance. The Outlaw is a better amp from the standpoint of components, and at a significantly higher price point. Emotiva is a value leader and the lower cost has to come from somewhere.

My gut feel is Outlaw is a bit more reliable but I have not done sufficient research to say for sure, and of course on the audio boards mostly what you get are the folk with problems.

If you want and can afford the higher component quality, or at least greater power capacity and headroom, get the Outlaw. If your budget is constrained or your research shows the Emotiva is good enough, you'll be fine with that as well.

Obviously there are many fans of both brands and you would not go wrong with either. I wish I had an Outlaw to compare; my current stable of amps is Emotiva as I retired my previous tube and SS amps and can no longer afford the ARC/Krell/ML-class of components I had in the primordial past.
liltalkm's Avatar liltalkm
10:41 AM Liked: 64
post #20 of 28
03-02-2012 | Posts: 584
Joined: Jun 2001
Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post

I had the Sherbourn amp and like it.


I have a 7/2100A that I just took out of my system and replaced with a Sunfire TGA-5400 for no other reason but wanting something new and a little more power.

You can bridge channels on the Sherbourn, so it can effectively be reduced from 7 channels to 6, 5 or 4.

I love the Sherbourn and the Sunfire.

Both can be found on Ebay, Craigslist and Audiogon for good prices.

My Sherbourn may end up there shortly.
galvin's Avatar galvin
11:20 AM Liked: 10
post #21 of 28
03-02-2012 | Posts: 86
Joined: May 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjackkrash View Post

I haven't seen a bench test on the XPA-5, but I'd sure like to. My guess is from its power supply it would bench very close to the 7125 in terms of real-world power to each channel driven. What kind of speakers do you need to drive? I would think either the XPA-5 or the 7125 would drive most reasonably efficient speakers as loud as you could stand to listen to them in all but the biggest rooms.

Here you go...

XPA-5 8 Ohm bench test
XPA-5 4 Ohm bench test
joehonest's Avatar joehonest
12:16 PM Liked: 30
post #22 of 28
03-02-2012 | Posts: 983
Joined: May 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

At present I use an XLS 1000 Crown amp, the Emotiva XPA-3 and my receivers amps for my 7 channels of needed amplification. They all work well (with the small annoyance of hiss from the XLS 1000, but that's only when you are standing right next to the rear surround speakers connected to it.)

I'm using my xls1000 bridged for sub use. I did try it out on my mains first just to listen at full range, I heard no hiss with it hooked up to a onkyo 3007, maybe your denon is hissing?

Try lowing the amps input level and up the denon output level above the denon noise floor for better s/n ratio. Thats works for noisy preamps. I wouldn't rule out a noisy amp to. But its worth a try.
MichaelJHuman's Avatar MichaelJHuman
01:28 PM Liked: 118
post #23 of 28
03-02-2012 | Posts: 18,955
Joined: Nov 2006
I have a Yamaha, not a Denon And it hisses with no pre amp connected, regardless of level controls. So it seems to not be resolvable ... I think
joehonest's Avatar joehonest
01:36 PM Liked: 30
post #24 of 28
03-02-2012 | Posts: 983
Joined: May 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

I have a Yamaha, not a Denon And it hisses with no pre amp connected, regardless of level controls. So it seems to not be resolvable ... I think

You should return the amp for a replacement..
Does the hiss get louder with the volume ? You can lower the tweeter level on the speaker and EQ it with the yamaha.
MichaelJHuman's Avatar MichaelJHuman
02:01 PM Liked: 118
post #25 of 28
03-02-2012 | Posts: 18,955
Joined: Nov 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post

You should return the amp for a replacement..
Does the hiss get louder with the volume ? You can lower the tweeter level on the speaker and EQ it with the yamaha.

I did return it... Second unit same issue

It's not annoying from my seating position, and it's just surround sound, so I am ok with it. Thanks for the ideas though.
DS-21's Avatar DS-21
02:36 PM Liked: 247
post #26 of 28
03-02-2012 | Posts: 3,573
Joined: Jun 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

I did return it... Second unit same issue

It's not annoying from my seating position, and it's just surround sound, so I am ok with it. Thanks for the ideas though.

Sounds like maybe the XLS1500 is the one to go for, even though it's way more power than people need for mains.

It has a much higher S/N ratio than the 1000, because it has a better DSP.
joehonest's Avatar joehonest
03:27 PM Liked: 30
post #27 of 28
03-02-2012 | Posts: 983
Joined: May 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Sounds like maybe the XLS1500 is the one to go for, even though it's way more power than people need for mains.

It has a much higher S/N ratio than the 1000, because it has a better DSP.

All the XLS use the same DSP
1000 s/n 97db and the others are rated 103db
But even with s/n of 97db the amp should be hiss free
I know my 1000 is noise free.
Maybe Michael's speakers are very high efficiency ?
He may need to add a 10-20 ohm 10 watt resistor inline to just the tweeters
Than reEQ the high end.
I have used this trick with great results, its very cost effective.
DS-21's Avatar DS-21
03:47 PM Liked: 247
post #28 of 28
03-02-2012 | Posts: 3,573
Joined: Jun 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post

All the XLS use the same DSP
1000 s/n 97db and the others are rated 103db

Here's what Kevin Heber (then Crown rep) wrote on their forum:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Heber View Post

The 1500 has a better (outboard) codec than the 1000, so the noise performance is better. ***
In the case of the XLS1000, the DAC resides within the DSP, while in the case of the XLS1500 – 2500, the DAC is part of a separate Cirrus codec. ***

source: http://www.crownaudio.com/forums/ind...=4116&hl=noise

Admittedly, it would have been more accurate for me to write "has two DSP's, one for D/A and one for everything else, whereas the '1000 does it all on one DSP."

Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post

But even with s/n of 97db the amp should be hiss free

Depends on a lot of factors, really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post

He may need to add a 10-20 ohm 10 watt resistor inline to just the tweeters
Than reEQ the high end.
I have used this trick with great results, its very cost effective.

Good trick!
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