R972 Trinnov User Notes - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 649 Old 05-11-2012, 04:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

Curt, can I use the Pro-logic II mode with 2-CH audio and use the full Trinnov correction with 3D remapping? I believe Noah said that Neo 6 and Pro-logic IIx won't work with Trinnov activated on the 972.What about Pro-logic II and neural surround? If I can't use any derived surround modes for 2CH audio with the full Trinnov(room correction+remapping)then it's a deal breaker for me.

I recall it will remap 2 ch PLII > multichannel. Can someone please confirm, as I use the R972 in a 2.1 office system.

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Also, in on older post it was stated that 972's Trinnov filter taps were 1024(FIR) per main channels and 7(IIR) filters per the sub.Was this the same with the Pro optimizer 2.0?

Correct for the 972. The Pro and TEQ are essentially unlimited, typically set to 2048 and 15....

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post #272 of 649 Old 05-11-2012, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

Curt, can I use the Pro-logic II mode with 2-CH audio and use the full Trinnov correction with 3D remapping? I believe Noah said that Neo 6 and Pro-logic IIx won't work with Trinnov activated on the 972.What about Pro-logic II and neural surround? If I can't use any derived surround modes for 2CH audio with the full Trinnov(room correction+remapping)then it's a deal breaker for me.

When I tested the 972 two years ago I ran it with all the various surround modes including PLIIx. With Trinnov. Remapping adds no extra burden to the run-time DSP, just some extra calculations when creating the filters.
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post #273 of 649 Old 05-11-2012, 07:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

When I tested the 972 two years ago I ran it with all the various surround modes including PLIIx. With Trinnov. Remapping adds no extra burden to the run-time DSP, just some extra calculations when creating the filters.

As it turns out, the R972 has lots of processing power - 2x TI DA710 DSPs. The first DSP does decoding, including HD formats, and second DSP for Trinnov processing. You are quite right- remapping uses relatively few MIPs in runtime. EQ is the MIPs hog. With 7.1, consumption is 80%+ MIPs, with 90% being the practical limit. Our goal was to achieve as much of the pro's performance as possible, so we pushed it...

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post #274 of 649 Old 05-11-2012, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

Trinnov is da bomb, and I felt like I was stealing for what I paid for the 972.

So you finally got your unit and set it up? What do you think (besides it being da bomb)?

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post #275 of 649 Old 05-12-2012, 12:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post

Correct for the 972. The Pro and TEQ are essentially unlimited, typically set to 2048 and 15....

Hmmm....so the Pro unit typically had about twice the filter taps as the 972.Sounds just like the same difference between the Audyssey XT equipped AVR's and the Pro units I have now.

It's looking like the 972's EQ isn't going to have the same type of correction resolution that I'm currently using now,just like the AVR Audysssey XT version is half the resolution of SEQ.

That's one of the reasons I'm skeptical about the 972's room correction being that beneficial to my system,but I'm still intrigued about the remapping.....what to do....what to do.

I've also been contemplating about the possibility of hooking the 972's pre-amp outputs to the MC-12's 5.1 analog inputs and having them re-digitize the signal with the trims zero'd out,the distance for each channel set to 0,and the x'over's all set to Full including the sub,if it would be possible to use the MC-12's surround modes on top of the straight Trinnov room EQ.

I'm thinking it won't be possible to do properly due to having dual volume controls in the mix and I don't know if it's possible to apply processing after the room EQ without screwing up the filters.It would be a great way to get the best of both worlds with the ability to use re-mapping on one unit and logic7 on another,but seperately of course,I don't think it would work with L7 on top of re-mapping....would it?

Does Trinnov automatically override the 972's main volume control and set it to reference level for the calibration or can the volume be adjusted to any point for the calibration?

I'm not quite sure if it's possible to make this work.
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post #276 of 649 Old 05-12-2012, 08:52 AM
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Considering the price they are selling for you should easily be able to resell it for $450, thus costing you only a couple of hundred to really experiment with it. Best case scenario it does improve your system or you sell it at break even (or maybe make a small profit )

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence, than it does knowledge. Charles Darwin
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post #277 of 649 Old 05-12-2012, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

I'm thinking it won't be possible to do properly due to having dual volume controls in the mix and I don't know if it's possible to apply processing after the room EQ without screwing up the filters.It would be a great way to get the best of both worlds with the ability to use re-mapping on one unit and logic7 on another,but seperately of course,I don't think it would work with L7 on top of re-mapping....would it?

What you propose will work, just not with predictably accurate results. For room EQ and/or remapping to function as intended, they should be performed downstream of any surround processing. One loophole that you could try, however, would be to perform a Trinnov calibration with your MC-12 in circuit and set to your desired Logic 7 mode. That would limit you to one Logic 7 mode per calibration memory, and the odd combination might still function sub optimally.

AJ
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post #278 of 649 Old 05-12-2012, 10:29 AM
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You're using that criteria as part of your decision? Nevermind that is isn't just filter resolution but how audessey xt32 filters were implemented in their higher frequency range corrections.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

Hmmm....so the Pro unit typically had about twice the filter taps as the 972.Sounds just like the same difference between the Audyssey XT equipped AVR's and the Pro units I have now.

It's looking like the 972's EQ isn't going to have the same type of correction resolution that I'm currently using now,just like the AVR Audysssey XT version is half the resolution of SEQ.

That's one of the reasons I'm skeptical about the 972's room correction being that beneficial to my system,but I'm still intrigued about the remapping.....what to do....what to do.

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post #279 of 649 Old 05-12-2012, 12:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

Hmmm....

It's looking like the 972's EQ isn't going to have the same type of correction resolution that I'm currently using now,just like the AVR Audysssey XT version is half the resolution of SEQ.

That's one of the reasons I'm skeptical about the 972's room correction being that beneficial to my system,but I'm still intrigued about the remapping.....what to do....what to do.

I don't follow your conclusion. 1024/7 is plenty of resolution for most private spaces. The bigger concern is how that resolution is used. We don't build our filters the way others do, so we wouldn't expect the same result, and this is born out in the group's experiences.

Quote:


I've also been contemplating about the possibility of hooking the 972's pre-amp outputs to the MC-12's 5.1 analog inputs and having them re-digitize the signal with the trims zero'd out,the distance for each channel set to 0,and the x'over's all set to Full including the sub,if it would be possible to use the MC-12's surround modes on top of the straight Trinnov room EQ.

I'm thinking it won't be possible to do properly due to having dual volume controls in the mix and I don't know if it's possible to apply processing after the room EQ without screwing up the filters.It would be a great way to get the best of both worlds with the ability to use re-mapping on one unit and logic7 on another,but seperately of course,I don't think it would work with L7 on top of re-mapping....would it? ....
.

Correct- you have to choose between L7 and remapping. L7 can go after Eq, as both are linear. Can't remap > L7, as Trinnov converts channels to images. The MC can operate in both cases as your gain/volume control. If you find you like remapping more the L7, you could then bypass the MC to clean up the signal path.

Cheers

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post #280 of 649 Old 05-12-2012, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post

I don't follow your conclusion. 1024/7 is plenty of resolution for most private spaces. The bigger concern is how that resolution is used. We don't build our filters the way others do, so we wouldn't expect the same result, and this is born out in the group's experiences.

You bring up a good point I didn't think of it like that.



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Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post

Correct- you have to choose between L7 and remapping. L7 can go after Eq, as both are linear. Can't remap > L7, as Trinnov converts channels to images. The MC can operate in both cases as your gain/volume control. If you find you like remapping more the L7, you could then bypass the MC to clean up the signal path.

Cheers

That's exactly how I was thinking of using the two.I just don't know exactly how to go about doing the calibration process with the two in the signal chain with both volume controls.Could you help me in this regard.I think I'm going to order one of these today

Thanks!
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post #281 of 649 Old 05-12-2012, 02:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

You bring up a good point I didn't think of it like that.

That's exactly how I was thinking of using the two.I just don't know exactly how to go about doing the calibration process with the two in the signal chain with both volume controls.Could you help me in this regard.I think I'm going to order one of these today

Thanks!

The MC-12 in the circuit for cals will work very well. The cal signal is at a fixed output level, and sometimes this is an issue, particularly if the speakers are inefficient or partially occluded. To your advantage, the MC-12 can ideally set cal levels to a reasonable SPL between stimulating the room, and not over driving the speakers. Also unbalanced>balanced amps?
Cheers-

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post #282 of 649 Old 05-12-2012, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post

The MC-12 in the circuit for cals will work very well. The cal signal is at a fixed output level, and sometimes this is an issue, particularly if the speakers are inefficient or partially occluded. To your advantage, the MC-12 can ideally set cal levels to a reasonable SPL between stimulating the room, and not over driving the speakers. Also unbalanced>balanced amps?
Cheers-

My MC-12 would be connected directly to my active studio monitors via unbalanced RCA's.The MC-12 also has input gain control.Does the 972 send out it's calibration signal at typical 75dB reference level?

Curt,

Does the version of Trinnov in the 972 do all of the same correction described here?

http://www.trinnov.com/technologies/...ic-correction/
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post #283 of 649 Old 05-12-2012, 03:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

My MC-12 would be connected directly to my active studio monitors via unbalanced RCA's.The MC-12 also has input gain control.Does the 972 send out it's calibration signal at typical 75dB reference level?

Curt,

Does the version of Trinnov in the 972 do all of the same correction described here?

http://www.trinnov.com/technologies/...ic-correction/

Ideally, you want cal to run 75-80dB. The output of the 972 varries as a function of amp gain and speaker efficiency.


Yes- the link is a good description... As you noted previously, it's based on our V2.0 pro.

cheers,

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post #284 of 649 Old 05-12-2012, 06:07 PM
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Using mine as a pre/pro and it does get very warm, not hot.
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post #285 of 649 Old 05-13-2012, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by JBJR View Post

Using mine as a pre/pro and it does get very warm, not hot.

My MC-12 runs pretty warm without a cooling fan.With the cooling fan it just gets mildly warm.My rack is a Sanus eurorack which is very open in design.I just don't have enough shelf space to fit the beast with it's feet attached.Only have 8 inches of clearance.
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post #286 of 649 Old 05-13-2012, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post

Ideally, you want cal to run 75-80dB. The output of the 972 varries as a function of amp gain and speaker efficiency.


Yes- the link is a good description... As you noted previously, it's based on our V2.0 pro.

cheers,

Curt,

Can the balance/fader,bass/treble,and tilt controls on the MC-12 be used on top of the remapped signal?

Also,does the Trinnov EQ optimize the crossover blend between the speakers and the sub or does it just report the -6dB point and correct each individually?
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post #287 of 649 Old 05-13-2012, 06:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

Curt,

Can the balance/fader,bass/treble,and tilt controls on the MC-12 be used on top of the remapped signal?

Also,does the Trinnov EQ optimize the crossover blend between the speakers and the sub or does it just report the -6dB point and correct each individually?

Trinnov does optimize the xover...

-You can apply balance/fader,bass/treble,and tilt controls to EQ'd but not remapped signal.

-You can apply to a remapped signal any linear eq that applies to all channels equally, including bass/treb/tilt.

-Balance/fader is problematic, as intended to adjust source to output channels. With remap, there is no longer the original 1:1 relationship between input and output. Adjusting a balance/fader will mess with the imaging. With remapped signals, you need a pro unit to do that effectively.

Cheers

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post #288 of 649 Old 05-14-2012, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twells View Post

Are you sure you want to hook them up to the same amp channels? I'd try them as independent side surrounds first and see what you get out of them. Maybe something like at 110 and 70?

I already have; I traded the center and one of the back channels for a pair at +/-70, near ceiling height.

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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
There's only been 2 or 3 7.1 BD's, and I expected more based on what reviews said about the surround mix.

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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

There are roughly 530 7.1 BDs. Try the opening scene from Transformers 3; the first 10 seconds (Paramount logo) should let you hear your back speakers clearly. Do you mean with re-mapping activated?

Sorry, poorly worded on my part; I meant I've only heard 2 or 3 on the 972.

Yes, using 3D remapping.

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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Turning on Trinnov room correction shouldn't lock you out of surround processing modes (unless you're doing an unusual configuration with your speakers).

Correct, I was mistaken about that.

I was confused by a backwards reading of the chart in the manual of which types of inputs allow which speakers to be active, combined with not understanding the 972's control and display behavior.

I discovered with a more thorough reading of the manual that the front panel Surround button toggles Auto Surround off and on; when on it disallows certain modes.

And if the mode knob is then turned the display will say "Trinnov surround", and, if in Auto Surround, sometimes only that instead of surround modes.

Returning to back surrounds:

Leaving aside notable passages such as you mention above, how often do your back surrounds make a worthwhile contribution?

Using the last chapter of the Super Speedway BD, which has multiple occurrences of the camera looking down the road and the car zooming from behind and past, the only way I could hear anything from the backs was to stand right next to one, with disconnect the side surrounds about 6' ahead of them disconnected.

I tried Trinnov set to both Cinema and Music; this is a DTS HD disc so the only playback options is DTS HD Master.

I'd sure like to hear others' experiences are with the back speakers, or is no one else using them?

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Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post

That said, if you have 5.1 content and a physical 7.1 layout, sounds that are intended to come from the rear would ideally be directed to the rear speakers.

Now that I've got surround mode selection straightened out I'll try some of my 5.1 discs using DPL IIx and report back.

Actually I guess that should be DPL EX, since I have only one back channel.

Academic question, but Curt, do you know what Trinnov would do with DPL IIx's stereo backs with my single back setup?

Noah
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post #289 of 649 Old 05-14-2012, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Leaving aside notable passages such as you mention above, how often do your back surrounds make a worthwhile contribution?

All the time. No exaggeration. My rear speakers are always producing something. Only sounds that were mixed exclusively into the left OR right surround channel are limited to my sides speakers. Any sounds that were shared between surround channels, even a little, will start showing up in my rear speakers, either slightly or completely (dual-mono sounds).

In my experience, there are just as many shared sounds as there are exclusive sounds, meaning my rear speakers are as active as my side speakers. There are rare exceptions: the recent movie 'Super 8' has a discrete 7.1 mix that uses the back channels so sparingly that, when there isn't the occasional sound effect behind me, my rear speakers are silent. Very unusual.

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post #290 of 649 Old 05-14-2012, 11:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Now that I've got surround mode selection straightened out I'll try some of my 5.1 discs using DPL IIx and report back.

Actually I guess that should be DPL EX, since I have only one back channel.

Academic question, but Curt, do you know what Trinnov would do with DPL IIx's stereo backs with my single back setup?

PLIIx Music will only output 6.1 signals if 6.1 speakers are available. There is no PLIIx Movie mode for 6.1, as that's exactly the definition of Surround EX.
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post #291 of 649 Old 05-15-2012, 10:29 AM
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Curt,

Trinnov in the 972,does it do it's calculations at 48khz sampling?

When using the 3D remapping SMPTE cinema setting does Trinnov try to remap and recreate the multiple side and real wall speaker pattern used in dubbing stages even when only using 2 rear channel surrounds?

I also have a question about the 0 +3dB +6dB hex files.Can they be unloaded from the 972 if you don't like the result?



Thanks
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post #292 of 649 Old 05-15-2012, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

Trinnov in the 972,does it do it's calculations at 48khz sampling?

I believe that the Trinnov implementation in the 972 does its calculations at the incoming sample rate. However, I do not know if the 972 has a sample rate limitation (e.g. can all facets of Trinnov be applied to 88.2 kHz, 96 kHz, 176.4 kHz, and 192 kHz sample rates).

Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

I also have a question about the 0 +3dB +6dB hex files.Can they be unloaded from the 972 if you don't like the result?

As I understand it, you can load only one bass curve at a time. If you apply the +3 dB curve but wish to revert, just load the 0 dB curve, which is the default.

AJ
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post #293 of 649 Old 05-15-2012, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

All the time. No exaggeration. My rear speakers are always producing something.

You're using Logic 7, right?

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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

PLIIx Music will only output 6.1 signals if 6.1 speakers are available. There is no PLIIx Movie mode for 6.1, as that's exactly the definition of Surround EX.

Hmm, no Surround EX on the 972.

It might not matter anyhow, as who knows how 972/Trinnov would treat it.

As far as I can tell, with Trinnov engaged all manual speaker settings are ignored; when I set the 972 to have only L/R and surrounds, running Trinnov sent bursts to all 7 speakers and they were all active with Trinnov engaged.

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post #294 of 649 Old 05-15-2012, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

You're using Logic 7, right?

Only for 2-channel music. But for what we're discussing (multi-channel movie soundtracks) I use PLIIx.

Sanjay
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post #295 of 649 Old 05-15-2012, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

You're using Logic 7, right?



Hmm, no Surround EX on the 972.

It might not matter anyhow, as who knows how 972/Trinnov would treat it.

As far as I can tell, with Trinnov engaged all manual speaker settings are ignored; when I set the 972 to have only L/R and surrounds, running Trinnov sent bursts to all 7 speakers and they were all active with Trinnov engaged.

Hi Noah!

Tech for Sherwood said yesterday that channel volume can be adjusted, post Trinnov, via rs232. Have you had the opportunity to try that?

Thank you very much

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post #296 of 649 Old 05-15-2012, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Only for 2-channel music. But for what we're discussing (multi-channel movie soundtracks) I use PLIIx.

OK; I haven't had a chance to try any 5.1/DPLIIx yet

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Hi Noah!

Tech for Sherwood said yesterday that channel volume can be adjusted, post Trinnov, via rs232. Have you had the opportunity to try that?

Well *that's* interesting.

What exactly would I plug into the RS232 port and what would the procedure be?

Noah
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post #297 of 649 Old 05-15-2012, 02:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post

I believe that the Trinnov implementation in the 972 does its calculations at the incoming sample rate. However, I do not know if the 972 has a sample rate limitation (e.g. can all facets of Trinnov be applied to 88.2 kHz, 96 kHz, 176.4 kHz, and 192 kHz sample rates).
AJ

The R972 has two TI DA710 DSPs. As discussed previously, the first DSP provides all decoding of HD audio and surround modes. The second DSP is dedicated to Trinnov processing. With all channels processed at 1024/7 (FIR/IIR), about 80% of the MIPs are consumed at 48k/24bit with 32bit floating point processing. We chose filter resolution over sample rate, given our goal for optimizing listening performance.

Typically, any time the sample rate is doubled, the computational load goes up 4x. Therefore, to maintain higher sample rates, one would trade off significant filter resolution. This is one of the reasons we chose multi-core PCs for Trinnov pro products. Given the source bit depth of 24 and 32 bit floating point processing, the results remain quite good, with the R972 standing up well to critical listening.

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post #298 of 649 Old 05-15-2012, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

OK; I haven't had a chance to try any 5.1/DPLIIx yet



Well *that's* interesting.

What exactly would I plug into the RS232 port and what would the procedure be?

K. So You would plug an RS232 cable into the port (straight thru per tech), which would most commonly be connected to a Crestron or Control 4/similar device to transmit the strings.

The discrete commands are available from Sherwood.

Thank you very much

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post #299 of 649 Old 05-15-2012, 04:38 PM
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This isn't really R972 Trinnov User Notes related but I assume nobody would mind if I posted the RS232 commands? Attached.

 

Mod R772 protocol(RS232).xls.zip 69.9951171875k . file
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File Type: zip Mod R772 protocol(RS232).xls.zip (70.0 KB, 9 views)
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post #300 of 649 Old 05-15-2012, 05:13 PM - Thread Starter
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As these are "remote commands," their function, by definition, should not be expected to be different from the normal command set. The Level adjustments in the Mod R772 protocol(RS232).xls file are part of manual channel level calibration and do not apply to Trinnov runtime.

With Trinnov active, output channels are "objects" and no longer directly related to input channels as such. In order to control them, the channel levels must be adjusted internally before they hit the Trinnov processing. While available in the Pro units, it's not implemented in the R972.


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