R972 Trinnov User Notes - Page 12 - AVS Forum
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post #331 of 649 Old 05-22-2012, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by parodielin View Post

Hi, could you elaborate on the flat response of subwoofers? How did you verify that?

I have a Velodyne SMS-1 in my system that I use to add boost down low for my DIY subwoofers. The SMS-1 also has a real time subwoofer graph that covers 200hz to 15hz so you can see the response of your subs on your display and add corrections as needed.

Below is not the graph from my SMS-1, just found it on the net to give you a visual of what I am talking about:


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post #332 of 649 Old 05-22-2012, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

I have a Velodyne SMS-1 in my system that I use to add boost down low for my DIY subwoofers. The SMS-1 also has a real time subwoofer graph that covers 200hz to 15hz so you can see the response of your subs on your display and add corrections as needed.

Below is not the graph from my SMS-1, just found it on the net to give you a visual of what I am talking about:


That helps. I used REW to measure the Trinnov EQ today. Whenever I enable the 3D mapping, it shows a 5-10 dB drop in the output below 60Hz. I can adjust the gain control to bring up the subwoofer level. Is there a reason for 3D mapping to drop the output in this region? I'm thinking that's why people would like to use 3 dB or 6 dB curves.
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post #333 of 649 Old 05-23-2012, 06:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

The overall sound was smooth and for the most part very natural sounding using the Flat setting! I found the natural setting added wooliness to the bass and had less clarity.

In my room, the Flat has a sharper cut off in the 30Hz where the Natural will extend further when 3D mapping is NOT enabled.

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Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

As far as dynamics it really helped to apply the 6db bass boost, after that my system really came alive.

Continue my story, when 3D mapping is enabled, there will be a drop in 60Hz or so below. It is a significnat output drop. So the 6 dB boost is not really a boost but to bring the levels back on check (in my room at least).

There is a bump in the 100Hz region. Because my -6 dB point for mains and center are at 80Hz, the bump should result from crossover integration. If I switch the phase from 0 to 180 on the sub. The shape of bump would change (proving that's the real crossover region). I did most measurement last night. Haven't had chance to see how these impact my movie settings. I listened to a few two channel music. The bass boost did impact the fullness of the sound.

I will post my measurement picture tonight. That should help you understand the story.

My question still reamins: why would 3D mapping (as well as all other mapping) create a drop in 60Hz and below?
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post #334 of 649 Old 05-23-2012, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

The trims are also consistently way down.

Presuming you mean the trims on the 972, note that the trims you can see via the menu's are for Trinnov disengaged, and if I understand correctly, the ones displayed when the Trinnov setup is queried are measured relative levels, i.e. the inverse of trims qualitatively and I don't know what quantitatively.

You could deduce what the actual trim levels are by switching to manual and comparing the SPL with what Trinnov gives you, though the EQ would throw that off.

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post #335 of 649 Old 05-23-2012, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Presuming you mean the trims on the 972, note that the trims you can see via the menu's are for Trinnov disengaged, and if I understand correctly, the ones displayed when the Trinnov setup is queried are measured relative levels, i.e. the inverse of trims qualitatively and I don't know what quantitatively.

You could deduce what the actual trim levels are by switching to manual and comparing the SPL with what Trinnov gives you, though the EQ would throw that off.

Noah,

If the Trinnov results screen is showing -19 to -20dB for the main channels and -5dB for the sub does that mean that these are 'not the actual trim settings' that are being used by 972,that it's just indicating an internal (separate from trim controls) reduction/adjustment value in dB needed to keep from digital clipping for each channel?

If that's the case then I'm guessing there really is no way to know what the trims are actually set to with Trinnov engaged.

Does Trinnov add gain after it applies EQ to compensate for the level reduction?If it doesn't,how do you determine what reference level is by using the main volume control after EQ is applied,since the dB indicator for the volume control would now be arbitrary and not be of any accuracy.
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post #336 of 649 Old 05-23-2012, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by parodielin View Post

In my room, the Flat has a sharper cut off in the 30Hz where the Natural will extend further when 3D mapping is NOT enabled.



Continue my story, when 3D mapping is enabled, there will be a drop in 60Hz or so below. It is a significnat output drop. So the 6 dB boost is not really a boost but to bring the levels back on check (in my room at least).

There is a bump in the 100Hz region. Because my -6 dB point for mains and center are at 80Hz, the bump should result from crossover integration. If I switch the phase from 0 to 180 on the sub. The shape of bump would change (proving that's the real crossover region). I did most measurement last night. Haven't had chance to see how these impact my movie settings. I listened to a few two channel music. The bass boost did impact the fullness of the sound.

I will post my measurement picture tonight. That should help you understand the story.

My question still reamins: why would 3D mapping (as well as all other mapping) create a drop in 60Hz and below?

Very interesting,so using the 6dB boost file actually brings the bass level back in line when using 3D remapping.As a matter of fact, I think I remember mention of that being the reason for the 6dB boost file somewhere.If your not using the 3D remapping though, wouldn't you end up with a big boost instead for everything else?

When I had 3D mapping off the bass seemed even more overbearing to me.I thought it sounded more controlled with the 3D mapping on.Go figure!

Seems like there are alot of compromises involved using this unit.

You measured a bump at 100hz when Trinnov is using an 80hz xover?

Maybe that's why the bass on my system sounds off.That wooliness could be to much mid-bass from the bump.I would have figured Trinnov would reduce the bump around the crossover if it's actually optimizing the crossover blend.
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post #337 of 649 Old 05-23-2012, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

If the Trinnov results screen is showing -19 to -20dB for the main channels and -5dB for the sub does that mean that these are 'not the actual trim settings' that are being used by 972,that it's just indicating an internal (separate from trim controls) reduction/adjustment value in dB needed to keep from digital clipping for each channel?

Steve...you should turn down the gain on your sub amp so the results screen has the mains and the sub levels closer together.

Have you read the User notes written by Curt?

Quote:


Sets relative levels of loudspeakers and Subwoofer- To maintain signal DIGITAL HEADROOM, any relative DIFFERENCE in
level that is corrected for results in a corresponding DROP in overall level to insure no distortion from digital overs
(program exceeding maximum level). Therefore if loudspeakers are relatively well matched to each other, digital levels will
be optimized. Check reported levels- particularly between loudspeakers and Subwoofer. Adjust Subwoofer to get it close
to minimize the amount of level change that must be done by the system- thereby improving the R972's gain structure.


-curtis

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post #338 of 649 Old 05-23-2012, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Steve...you should turn down the gain on your sub amp so the results screen has the mains and the sub levels closer together.

Have you read the User notes written by Curt?

I believe i tried that and it the level went rom -5 to -3 for the sub and the others went down as well.I'll try again tonight and see what happens.

Are the trims ideally supposed to be all as close to 0 as possible,Because that's what I was hoping I would be able to achieve through manipulation of the MC-12's levels and trims etc...
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post #339 of 649 Old 05-23-2012, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

I believe i tried that and it the level went rom -5 to -3 for the sub and the others went down as well.I'll try again tonight and see what happens.

Are the trims ideally supposed to be all as close to 0 as possible,Because that's what I was hoping I would be able to achieve through manipulation of the MC-12's levels and trims etc...

-5 to -3 is a rise.

No, not 0, but close to each other.

Quote:


Trinnov Level Adjustments- Trinnov will automatically reduce overall gain in order to keep full digital
headroom. The gain reduction is computed based on two key factors: (1) level differences between speakers.
Trinnov level matches all speakers and the difference between them must be accounted for in the overall level
(2) correction and Target boost, as much as 6dB. Between the level and EQ corrections, there can be a
difference of 16dB or more. If the overall level is not reduced, digital distortion could result. Things you can do
to reduce the drop: Get your Sub levels manually close to where it needs to be to match Sats (Radio Shack meter
it with the built in tones). Avoid having unequal speaker levels, such as speakers with different efficiencies, or
speakers way far away that need unusual amounts of boost. Bottom line: as long as you are able to drive the
system to the levels you are looking for, and it sounds clean, you'll be OK with the kinds of drops you are seeing.
If you clean it up a bit, let us know how it goes- particularly if you find it worth the effort for others.


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post #340 of 649 Old 05-23-2012, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

-5 to -3 is a rise.

No, not 0, but close to each other.

I meant -8,Sorry

So,I need to reduce the sub level by 14dB.If I do that then the calibration will likely not pick up the test tones as loud enough and it will just keep trying for the sub.

Do I need to jack up the overall volume level on the MC-12 to compensate or am I just going to be chasing my own tail at this point lol!

That particular part of the user notes I found to be a little confusing the way it's worded.
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post #341 of 649 Old 05-23-2012, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

I meant -8,Sorry

So,I need to reduce the sub level by 14dB.If I do that then the calibration will likely not pick up the test tones as loud enough and it will just keep trying for the sub.

Do I need to jack up the overall volume level on the MC-12 to compensate or am I just going to be chasing my own tail at this point lol!

That particular part of the user notes I found to be a little confusing the way it's worded.

I actually think that MC12 is causing more problems that it's worth. But yes, do what you have to do to get the levels closer together.

If I were you, I would take the MC12 out of the chain and see how it works out.

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post #342 of 649 Old 05-23-2012, 03:12 PM
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Could this this be partly the reason why I thought the bass didn't sound right?

Was it a result of the sub level being to high compared to the other channels or is that taken care of by the 972?
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post #343 of 649 Old 05-23-2012, 03:15 PM
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Is the MC12 before the R972? Are the two connected via the 7.1 analog input on the R972?

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post #344 of 649 Old 05-23-2012, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

I actually think that MC12 is causing more problems that it's worth. But yes, do what you have to do to get the levels closer together.

If I were you, I would take the MC12 out of the chain and see how it works out.

Yeah, it does seem to be over complicating things,but I was hoping I could use it with the Trinnov EQ as well.

By the way,I'm a little confused on this....is remapping still active if the EQ is set to on and it still shows cinema and music as choices at the bottom of the EQ screen even if you don't select the 2D/3D,Autoroute,DLY+LVL option?
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post #345 of 649 Old 05-23-2012, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Is the MC12 before the R972? Are the two connected via the 7.1 analog input on the R972?

It's placed after the 972 and I'm trying to use it as the main volume control.That's what's making this a pain in the butt is trying to get the levels and gain stages between the 2 right and have accurate volume indication.If it's even possible to due correctly.
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post #346 of 649 Old 05-23-2012, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

Could this this be partly the reason why I thought the bass didn't sound right?

Was it a result of the sub level being to high compared to the other channels or is that taken care of by the 972?

I think it is a possibility, but with things like this, it is trial and error since it is not a standard config.

Like the user notes state, it has more do to with digital headroom.

Also, like I previous mentioned, I think your dynamic range is noticeable compromised by using the MC12 and R972 together.

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post #347 of 649 Old 05-23-2012, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

Yeah, it does seem to be over complicating things,but I was hoping I could use it with the Trinnov EQ as well.

By the way,I'm a little confused on this....is remapping still active if the EQ is set to on and it still shows cinema and music as choices at the bottom of the EQ screen even if you don't select the 2D/3D,Autoroute,DLY+LVL option?

I don't think it is just over complicating things, it is also hindering performance IMO.

There are three pieces to Trinnov in the menu:

Trinnov Room EQ: This is the speaker EQ.
Trinnov Spatial Mode: This determines if you want to correct for speaker placement in 2D or 3D, Autoroute (choose the best speaker for a specific channel) or just set the Levels/Delays (LVL+DLY)
Trinnov Remapping: Music or Cinema, choosing between the two changes the angles that are used in Trinnov Spatial Mode.

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post #348 of 649 Old 05-23-2012, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

It's placed after the 972 and I'm trying to use it as the main volume control.That's what's making this a pain in the butt is trying to get the levels and gain stages between the 2 right and have accurate volume indication.If it's even possible to due correctly.

Raise the speaker gains on the MC12, and lower the gain on the sub.

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post #349 of 649 Old 05-23-2012, 07:26 PM
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Whether the 6 dB is a boost or not will depend on your room. You saw some people prefer 6 dB. Here is the measurement in my room:

Attachment 247438

The first one is with and without 3D remapping. The FR is much smoother. It is Trinnov's decision to tame the 40-80 region I guess. But the result generates a reduction in 20-60Hz.

Attachment 247437

The second picture is I adjusted the gain and moved the measurement position to another very close spot. 400Hz above doesn't change that much. The peaks between 100-300Hz still exist. But it brings some levels back.

This is what the measurement says. I have a baseline of where the gain control on the subwoofer could be. And I'll likely to adjust it to my liking.

So to answer my own question, the "drop" in 3D mapping is Trinnov's effort to tame 60-300Hz. The subwoofer crossover is 80Hz for mains and the center.

I'm also guessing either I don't have much room gain or my subwoofer output is limited in the 30Hz region.
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post #350 of 649 Old 05-23-2012, 09:56 PM
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I moved the sofa and subwoofer a little bit. Re-did the calibration.

Attachment 247466

Much better result this time. The Natural curve has a bass boost and a faster roll out at 9K than Flat. Flat is overall flatter. One line has the Cinema EQ on and you can see the 6K above roll off faster.

I'll be using Natural + 3D Mapping for now with Cinema EQ off.
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post #351 of 649 Old 05-24-2012, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by parodielin View Post

I moved the sofa and subwoofer a little bit. Re-did the calibration.

Attachment 247466

Much better result this time. The Natural curve has a bass boost and a faster roll out at 9K than Flat. Flat is overall flatter. One line has the Cinema EQ on and you can see the 6K above roll off faster.

I'll be using Natural + 3D Mapping for now with Cinema EQ off.

I have another question on the Subwoofer. In the Pre-calcuation, Trinnov says the -6 dB for Sub is 19Hz. But from my measurement, it dropped 10 dB from 40Hz. I did a sweep tone between 30-40Hz. There isn't much output at 30Hz.

- How did Trinnov decide -6 dB at 19Hz? I'd think this is more like -10 dB (almost no output).

- From the data, it looks like my Sub would benefit from a 6 dB boost in 30Hz region, which is common now for many subwoofer plate amp. Did Trinnov do EQ at 30Hz level? I would understand if Trinnov doesn't do it because it would risk running out the Xmax of the Subwoofer. For me, it is a decision of whehter I should replace an amp with 6 dB boost or not (And I have the same risk of bottoming out the driver because it's a commercial product and I have no data on the driver spec).

- I still have an Audyssey MultiEQ machine. I never measure it. I guess Trinnov makes me serious about EQ. It would be a great case study but would be a pain to connect all of them.

I also find out when Trinnov is enabled and 972 is in Stereo mode, the center channel will have some "ambient" sound coming out (Surrounds are silent). I guess that's part of the Trinnov magic?
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post #352 of 649 Old 05-24-2012, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by parodielin View Post

I also find out when Trinnov is enabled and 972 is in Stereo mode, the center channel will have some "ambient" sound coming out (Surrounds are silent). I guess that's part of the Trinnov magic?

If you have Remapping engaged and your L/R placements do not match your specified angular subtense (e.g. Cinema: ±22°; Music: ±30°), then Trinnov uses output from C and/or SL/SR to remap L/R to the desired virtual placements -- at least that is my understanding. In your case, I would surmise that your L/R angular subtense is wider than specified, hence Trinnov is using lower level output from the C to narrow slightly your L/R virtual placements.

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post #353 of 649 Old 05-24-2012, 11:28 AM
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If you have Remapping engaged and your L/R placements do not match your specified angular subtense (e.g. Cinema: ±22°; Music: ±30°), then Trinnov uses output from C and/or SL/SR to remap L/R to the desired virtual placements -- at least that is my understanding. In your case, I would surmise that your L/R angular subtense is wider than specified, hence Trinnov is using lower level output from the C to narrow slightly your L/R virtual placements.

AJ

That is correct. That's why I said it was Trinnov magic. The woofers on the center channel are vibrating. I was surprised to see that and quite pleased.

It is also interesting that when I thought I aimed the microphone correct at the center, it is always 4-8 degree off. I have to move the tripod a bit "off the center" (to my eyes) to get the zero degree. I tried to move the center speaker a bit as well.

In some positions, the H angle of 90 from Sub will consistely show up.

The puzzle now is the reported 19Hz -6 dB from Sub vs. what I'm measuring. I will disconnect the AVR and do a direct signal sweep tone into the Sub to see if I can get more output at 30Hz region.

For now, I'm leaving Trinnov to do it's magic.

I still couldn't get the RF remote to work ...
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post #354 of 649 Old 05-24-2012, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

So you finally got your unit and set it up? What do you think (besides it being da bomb)?

Sorry, I didn't see this until just now. Well, what I think is that it improves the speaker integration to the point where it is seamless. The soundstage is natural and everything seems perfectly placed. I also think it helped the integration to my subs although I am using the 6db boost which seems more correct than without it.
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post #355 of 649 Old 05-24-2012, 02:30 PM
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That is correct. That's why I said it was Trinnov magic. The woofers on the center channel are vibrating. I was surprised to see that and quite pleased.

It is also interesting that when I thought I aimed the microphone correct at the center, it is always 4-8 degree off. I have to move the tripod a bit "off the center" (to my eyes) to get the zero degree. I tried to move the center speaker a bit as well.

In some positions, the H angle of 90 from Sub will consistely show up.

The puzzle now is the reported 19Hz -6 dB from Sub vs. what I'm measuring. I will disconnect the AVR and do a direct signal sweep tone into the Sub to see if I can get more output at 30Hz region.

For now, I'm leaving Trinnov to do it's magic.

I still couldn't get the RF remote to work ...

The graphs you posted add more insight into what Trinnov is doing,nice job. I can't say that I like what is doing to the bass though.

I heard a noticeable reduction in the bass when I switched 3D mapping on.I also get a 90 degree angle indication for the sub when the results screen first comes up and then the screen flashes and the angle returns to 0.The angle on the other speakers also changes slightly as well.It seems flaky to me.

I get a 19hz -6dB result as well.Makes me wonder if I'm really getting any bass below 30hz based on the results of your measurements.
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post #356 of 649 Old 05-24-2012, 02:58 PM
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I ran about 6 calibrations yesterday and I get all speakers to report angles,distance,levels,x-overs etc... and when I take a calibration disc and play the 5.1 test tracks with 3D mapping on there is zero output from the center channel.Trinnov keeps mapping the center to the left and right as a phantom center.

If I use the calibration I save to position 2 from my first and more consistent measurement session,I have output from the center channel.It seems like depending on where the x-overs are determined,that either Trinnov is not liking where I'm trying to push the x-over down by using the low-pass control for the sub,and it's either resulting in too low of a x-over for the center and it's just completely bypassing the center channel or there is something not working right.

The center channel x-over in these calibration runs ended up at a higher point than the first time I performed the calibrations and none of them resulted with any output from the center channel.I have the mic in the same exact place verified through measurements and the results screens give me the same consistent angles and distances,but the x-overs are completely different and higher than where I had got them before using the same low-pass setting.

I've never had these kinds of inconsistent results and had to try and run so many calibrations with Audyssey Pro.I run it once and it gives me consistent results and sonically sounds the same to me between each calibration run.I also don't get x-over results in the 150- 200hz range with the suggested x-over recommendation.I know Trinnov and Audyssey don't use the same measurement philosophy,but I would still think they would be closer in overall results.

Just my .02 cents.
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post #357 of 649 Old 05-24-2012, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

Well, what I think is that it improves the speaker integration to the point where it is seamless. The soundstage is natural and everything seems perfectly placed. I also think it helped the integration to my subs although I am using the 6db boost which seems more correct than without it.

Been my experience as well. With that in mind, I hope Trinnov gets licensed into some mid-priced pre-pros and receivers. I mean, there should be some consumer choices priced inbetween a $600 Sherwood receiver on close-out and a $12k ADA outboard room correction box.

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post #358 of 649 Old 05-24-2012, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

I've never had these kinds of inconsistent results and had to try and run so many calibrations with Audyssey Pro.I run it once and it gives me consistent results and sonically sounds the same to me between each calibration run.I also don't get x-over results in the 150- 200hz range with the suggested x-over recommendation.I know Trinnov and Audyssey don't use the same measurement philosophy,but I would still think they would be closer in overall results.

It isn't the EQing that is the issue, it is the spatial mode (which Audessey doesn't have) that is dictating the output. What is the difference in height between your L/R and C speakers? Where are you pointing the mic?

Did you run Audessey through your MC12? It isn't the measurement results that count, it is how it sounds.

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post #359 of 649 Old 05-24-2012, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Been my experience as well. With that in mind, I hope Trinnov gets licensed into some mid-priced pre-pros and receivers. I mean, there should be some consumer choices priced inbetween a $600 Sherwood receiver on close-out and a $12k ADA outboard room correction box.

I second what Randy and Sanjay are saying.

So far, Trinnov is the only RC system I've used that didn't require post-calibration futzing to get the subwoofer/mains integration right. While admittedly I haven't yet measured it, it sounds right.

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post #360 of 649 Old 05-25-2012, 08:27 AM
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I second what Randy and Sanjay are saying.

So far, Trinnov is the only RC system I've used that didn't require post-calibration futzing to get the subwoofer/mains integration right. While admittedly I haven't yet measured it, it sounds right.

Room gain, sub placement and the funiture close to the sub has quite some effect in calibration. These would impact Trinnov's data acquisition and filter calculation.

Let's say there is a chair close to your subwoofer when Trinnov acquires the data, the chair was moved after filters enabled. This might impact the accuracy of the integration. It will show up in measurement. If the chair is big enough to impact room gain of lower frequencies, you'll hear/feel that too.
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