R972 Trinnov User Notes - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 649 Old 05-25-2012, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

I second what Randy and Sanjay are saying.

So far, Trinnov is the only RC system I've used that didn't require post-calibration futzing to get the subwoofer/mains integration right. While admittedly I haven't yet measured it, it sounds right.

I will third what you guys are saying, Trinnov makes all the speakers just one cohesive unit that work together. I was using DSX wides prior to adding the 972 and with just the 3 front's behind an AT screen the sound stage is better.

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post #362 of 649 Old 05-25-2012, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by parodielin View Post

In the Pre-calcuation, Trinnov says the -6 dB for Sub is 19Hz.

There seems to be a be bug that has it report 19 Hz no matter what.

My subs measure flat to 10 Hz; when I got the 19 Hz I added 4 dB boost at 16 Hz to lower it, but still got 19 Hz.

Noah
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post #363 of 649 Old 05-25-2012, 11:38 AM
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Curt said it only corrects down to 20hz, not sure if that is tied into it saying 19 though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

There seems to be a be bug that has it report 19 Hz no matter what.

My subs measure flat to 10 Hz; when I got the 19 Hz I added 4 dB boost at 16 Hz to lower it, but still got 19 Hz.

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post #364 of 649 Old 05-25-2012, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by parodielin View Post

I moved the sofa and subwoofer a little bit. Re-did the calibration.

Attachment 247466

Much better result this time. The Natural curve has a bass boost and a faster roll out at 9K than Flat. Flat is overall flatter. One line has the Cinema EQ on and you can see the 6K above roll off faster.

I'll be using Natural + 3D Mapping for now with Cinema EQ off.

I love it when people measure and post graphs of their results with room correction (if only the "Trinnov User Group," had a measurement software and gear lending program). Thank you, parodielin.

That said, I'm having trouble figuring out exactly what the settings are for each color in your graphs. Could you please clarify -- Room EQ, spatial mode, Cinema EQ, bass boost curve, any tweaks after running Trinnov?

Also, I have a request for a measurement. If you don't mind, could you please measure with DLY+LVL for the spatial mode. I'm very curious if there are measurable frequency changes with and without spatial correction.

Regardless, thanks again for what you have posted.
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post #365 of 649 Old 05-25-2012, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

It isn't the EQing that is the issue, it is the spatial mode (which Audessey doesn't have) that is dictating the output. What is the difference in height between your L/R and C speakers? Where are you pointing the mic?

Did you run Audessey through your MC12? It isn't the measurement results that count, it is how it sounds.

The center is 2 inches higher then the L/R speakers.All 3 all identical monitors.The set-up is very close to the ITU standard for music.The mic is pointed at the center speaker at seated ear height and the results screen shows it's within 1 degree of dead center horizontally and the L/R are within 1 degree of a 30 degree angle and the same for the rears,there within 1-2 degrees from a 110 degree angle.Vertically I believe they are all within 78-80 degrees in angle.

You can't run the Sound Equalizer through the pre-pro.I believe it needs bass management before it.

In an earlier post I remember Curt mentioning that the micro controller was known to shut down channels in certain configurations, one being if you try to use only 3 front speakers it would shut down the center and phantom it.I believe it does something similar if you try to use a quad style set-up.

In my case I'm using a normal 5.1 set-up and it's now continuously shutting down the center even though I haven't changed anything.I don't understand why.
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post #366 of 649 Old 05-25-2012, 01:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi All:

I've been nursing a cold and getting ready for an upcoming HIFi show, THE Show Newport, description here: www.cahoyt.com/trinnov. If anyone is going to be in town for it, it would be a pleasure to meet- so please stop by and say hello!

Regarding Steve's configuration, the comments posted by Curtis and others are good feedback. Here are a few key points:

-any time you combine components, like the 972 with the MC-12, the sum will not necessarily be as good as the parts, particularly with respect to audio transparency. Regardless of the presumed compromise in the xovers, etc, it is worth a listen to the 972 alone, to provide a baseline. This is particularly true if you add complications such as bass management after the 972. Unless finessed well, it can possibly go wrong. Know your variables and you'll understand your results.

-Trinnov reporting- as Curtis pointed out, this is mostly covered in the User Notes. Values for level are relative. The main point is to get all the speakers to report as close as possible to one another. Usually this means only adjusting the sub, because it's your only variable. If you have outboard amps with level adjust, get them loud enough so you get 75-80dB SPL on the radio shack meter.

-xover and sub reports are based on speaker and room interaction. All audio below 20hz, is left uncorrected. The system is designed not to damage typical subwoofers. Below 25hz, there are a number of factors that can throw off measurements or cause issues- infrasonic noise, mic self noise, etc. As well, correcting with power on ported subwoofers below their port frequencies can damage drivers. In the pro units, we leave it to your discretion.

Bass management- Trinnov attempts to smooth the xover region. Remember Jeff's advise: switch the polarity on the sub after calibration- to see if bass improves.

-EQ and 2/d-3/d remapping are independent functions. Nothing in the EQ will affect remapping results, such as muting speakers. Some of the reported muting, like Steve's center channel going away- what to do: (1) go back and examine the results (always available in the calibration menu > RES1-2-3, found below CAL1-2-3). Verify the speakers are found and gives predictable results in height and angle, (2) play tracks with hard center (i.e. solo movie dialog), (3) try each of the functions NONE, D+L, 2D, 3D. Summing it up: what does/doesn't make sense about it. If the center is the issue, where is it reported relative the the L/R? Height? Angle? If any speaker becomes fully muted, and shouldn't be, this may point to a hard error, as reported in some previous cases where the micro-controller shut down channel(s). For Steve's 5.1 with everything looking good- I'd be looking to re-flash.

External Signal Testing- The only way to effectively send an analog test signal through a corrected 972 is to have EQ correction ON and 2d/3d OFF. Measuring EQ with remapping on will result in unpredictable results, because the test signal has been converted into a spatial object. Regarding measurements, with the 972 you can only measure externally via stereo pairs. Therefore if you want to improve results in all speakers, you have to calibrate pairs, evaluate, make adjustments, then calibrate the next pair, and so on. Then when complete, cal the whole system.

Cheers,

___________
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post #367 of 649 Old 05-25-2012, 01:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

snip...

In an earlier post I remember Curt mentioning that the micro controller was known to shut down channels in certain configurations, one being if you try to use only 3 front speakers it would shut down the center and phantom it.I believe it does something similar if you try to use a quad style set-up.

In my case I'm using a normal 5.1 set-up and it's now continuously shutting down the center even though I haven't changed anything.I don't understand why.

Frustrating! Only muted with Trinnov in 2/d/3d? Looks like the micorcontroller is confused about the center channel. If it truly mutes it, the microcontroller may not be doing a correct lookup. Is your unit re-flashed?

I'd recomend going back to basics: if you can, remove the MC and run a cal. See if the center comes back. To get the BM xover in line, set the relative sub level matched to the sats and lover the sub's lo pass filter (if it has one) to around 120. Don't worry about the reported levels, as long as they are relatively close. If you have headroom on playback, don't be too concerned about the relative number on the dial. Worth a try, given your efforts to date.

Sorry to hear about the frustration. You are to be commended for putting in the effort to get some improvement gains out of your system!

cheers,

___________
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post #368 of 649 Old 05-25-2012, 02:03 PM
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Hi Curt,

By re-flashed due mean the firmware or a factory reset?
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post #369 of 649 Old 05-25-2012, 02:09 PM
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It's using firmware 147i and the firmware hasn't been re-flashed.How would I do that?
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post #370 of 649 Old 05-25-2012, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ograma View Post

I love it when people measure and post graphs of their results with room correction (if only the "Trinnov User Group," had a measurement software and gear lending program). Thank you, parodielin.

That said, I'm having trouble figuring out exactly what the settings are for each color in your graphs. Could you please clarify -- Room EQ, spatial mode, Cinema EQ, bass boost curve, any tweaks after running Trinnov?

Also, I have a request for a measurement. If you don't mind, could you please measure with DLY+LVL for the spatial mode. I'm very curious if there are measurable frequency changes with and without spatial correction.

Regardless, thanks again for what you have posted.

All in Flat w/ 3D Remap except the purple using Natural (Bass boost). The difference in high frequency is Cinema EQ on and off.

So far my data has been consistent with what each curve and options would do.

The drop off at 40Hz is related to room and positions. I did a few straight sweep tone testing (direct signal into the sub) on the subwoofer, measured them near field, and confirmed it's output capability. In the same position w/ different height, it will go down to 25Hz and lower. Sometimes I lie down on the sofa when watching movies. Sometimes I'd sit a bit higher. The sofa plays a role in the bass extension. I also did a few different horizonal positions w/ the same height, it's quite consistent as well.

I will need to enjoy a few movies before my next measurement. I'm quite happy with where I am right now.
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post #371 of 649 Old 05-25-2012, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

There seems to be a be bug that has it report 19 Hz no matter what.

My subs measure flat to 10 Hz; when I got the 19 Hz I added 4 dB boost at 16 Hz to lower it, but still got 19 Hz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by moparfan View Post

Curt said it only corrects down to 20hz, not sure if that is tied into it saying 19 though.

19hz is the bottom end of the measurements.

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post #372 of 649 Old 05-25-2012, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post

Hi All:

I've been nursing a cold and getting ready for an upcoming HIFi show, THE Show Newport, description here: www.cahoyt.com/trinnov. If anyone is going to be in town for it, it would be a pleasure to meet- so please stop by and say hello!

I feel for you buddy, I picked up a bad cold yesterday and am really feeling it today

I did have a question on what would be reference level on the 972? Is it 0 on the volume? I normally hit -10 at the most with THX pre-pro's but find my-self listening at -5 to 0 on occasion with the 972 and it doesn't seem as loud as reference.

I hope you get better soon and if I make it to the Show I will be sure to stop by.

"Half the world is looking for Jesus, and the other half is looking for more bass..."
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post #373 of 649 Old 05-26-2012, 06:08 AM
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Hi Curt,

I didn't know you guys are going to be at T.H.E. Show.

We will be using an R-972 in our HT set up in Atrium #220.

May I ask for your assistance in running Trinnov please?

I'll pm you my info.

Thanks,

Hugh
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post #374 of 649 Old 05-26-2012, 08:09 AM
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[quote=mjaudio;22065222]

I did have a question on what would be reference level on the 972? Is it 0 on the volume? I normally hit -10 at the most with THX pre-pro's but find my-self listening at -5 to 0 on occasion with the 972 and it doesn't seem as loud as reference.

QUOTE]

You may want to wait for Curts reply but my understanding is that the all the levels are relative. The volume db reading is after the db readings you got during calibration. So if your average cal value was -15db roughly plus 15 would be reference.

Seems fairly close for me, with my old pioneer i listened at -15 to -20, with the 972 i like to listen around zero.
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post #375 of 649 Old 05-26-2012, 08:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

I feel for you buddy, I picked up a bad cold yesterday and am really feeling it today

I did have a question on what would be reference level on the 972? Is it 0 on the volume? I normally hit -10 at the most with THX pre-pro's but find my-self listening at -5 to 0 on occasion with the 972 and it doesn't seem as loud as reference.

I hope you get better soon and if I make it to the Show I will be sure to stop by.

Thanks.

For anyone who wants a reference level: get a "test" disc and measure the actual levels with a Radio Shack Meter. This is the only way you will be able to know what true "reference levels" are. Look for a track with tones at -20dBFS. Movie studios consider this corresponds to a Reference SPL of 85dB for fronts, 82dB for rears (if more then 2). Keep in mind home listeners listen in smaller spaces, which sound louder for the same level, so tend to listen 8-10dB below this. What it comes down to is that you will find a comfortable level to play your movies at, and you'll then just need to repeat the setting.

That said, the benefit of knowing where you are relative the the Reference level is how much loudness compensation should be applied. I suggest that once you find the level you are most comfortable with, be it "-5 or 0 or +5" on the R972, once you find it, then figure out your EQ preferences at that level.

Cheers

Cheers,

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post #376 of 649 Old 05-26-2012, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post

Look for a track with tones at -20dBFS. Movie studios consider this corresponds to a Reference SPL of 85dB for fronts, 82dB for rears (if more then 2).

Curt, in the interest of not confusing people about how to use a calibration disc, it should be noted that for home calibration every channel is the same: -20 dBFS = 85 dB spl (AIX disc), or, more commonly, -30 dBFS = 75 dB (THX discs and the like). 75 dB is also the level used by the AVR's internal test signals.

The 3 dB offset used in cinemas is not carried over to consumer media.
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post #377 of 649 Old 05-27-2012, 02:34 PM
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Well,after a frustrating calibration session yesterday,I got some better results.I think.

Trinnov set my front 3 LCR to 80hz after I used the lower extension mode switch on my monitors and 200hz for the 2 rears which are a smaller monitor version of the fronts.I was hoping for a crossover more around 100hz,but will have to see how it sounds.The levels still indicate the same for the main channels which is -19dB for the L,C,SL and -20dB for the R,SR.The sub level I managed to get to -11dB from -5dB.I tried turning the gain control up higher on the sub,but I started to hear audible noise coming from the drivers and backed it down before that point.The levels result is better,but not ideal.

I ran 4 calibrations with the same results and then a gremlin struck! I went to play some hard panned center channel material to test the 3D mapping and I ended up with a squealing humming type sound from the sub,not loud,but easily audible.At first I thought it was the sub.I disconnected the line level and it wasn't the sub generating the noise.I then reset the unit,which erased all the calibrationsand the sound came back again just like before.I reset it again,same result.I switched to video 2 input, no issues.I switched to input 5,all good.I switch back to input 1, noise is there.I finally went in to the input menu and switched the HDMI input from 1 to 3 and then back and the noise was gone and hasn't come back since.This is one buggy platform! Reminds me of Behringer gear

I had checked the previous and now gone calibrations,to see if the center was being used with 3D mapping.All 4 previous calibrations had pretty much nothing coming from the center.It wasn't shut down,but very close to nothing coming from it at a very low level.In 2D mapping the center was fully operational in the previous calibrations.The final calibration I ran after the multiple resets,luckily gave me the same results I had before and this time for some reason in 3D mapping mode the center is fully present.

I will try this week to test it out with a movie to see how it all sounds.I also want to use an SPL meter and make sure that I'm listening at a proper level for a better comparison.

Curt is there any particulars that you can talk about that would lead to Trinnov just seemingly using the center channel more or less at random as fully used vs. hardly used,when everything about the calibrations seems exactly the same as far as the results screen is concerned.I would like to try to minimize the chance of the center being almost completely underutilized.
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post #378 of 649 Old 05-27-2012, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

The sub level I managed to get to -11dB from -5dB.I tried turning the gain control up higher on the sub,but I started to hear audible noise coming from the drivers and backed it down before that point.The levels result is better,but not ideal.

You need to turn down the gain on the sub...not up...to match what you have for your mains which are at -19 or -20dB.

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post #379 of 649 Old 05-27-2012, 03:09 PM
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Maybe you should not concern your-self with how much your center is coming into play and just take a listen before you measure Steve. I have no idea if my center channel is putting out much information as it is behind a AT screen but I do know that the dialog is about the best I have had in my theater.

It sounds like your trying to analyze all the results before even stopping to take a listen.

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post #380 of 649 Old 05-27-2012, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

You need to turn down the gain on the sub...not up...to match what you have for your mains which are at -19 or -20dB.

When I turn the gain down the level gets closer to zero.That would mean to me that the level is getting further away from the -19 to -20dB that the other channels are at.What you're suggesting seems backwards to me.

Is getting the sub level closer to zero the goal?I am a little confused.
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post #381 of 649 Old 05-27-2012, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

When I turn the gain down the level gets closer to zero.That would mean to me that the level is getting further away from the -19 to -20dB that the other channels are at.What you're suggesting seems backwards to me.

Is getting the sub level closer to zero the goal?I am a little confused.

Yes, you need to lower the gain on your sub and that will bring the -11db down closer to -19db.

Also with your setup having your speakers in near perfect position you shouldnt need 3d or 2d correction(although i would listen with both you may like one of them), DLY&LVL should do well with your system.
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post #382 of 649 Old 05-27-2012, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

When I turn the gain down the level gets closer to zero.That would mean to me that the level is getting further away from the -19 to -20dB that the other channels are at.What you're suggesting seems backwards to me.

Part of the problem is the MC-12. The gain is set too high, so Trinnov is applying significant digital attenuation to align the gain structure with reference level. Honestly, inclusion of the MC-12 seems more trouble than its is worth.

AJ
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post #383 of 649 Old 05-27-2012, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcousticSoul View Post

Yes, you need to lower the gain on your sub and that will bring the -11db down closer to -19db.

Also with your setup having your speakers in near perfect position you shouldnt need 3d or 2d correction(although i would listen with both you may like one of them), DLY&LVL should do well with your system.

This about sums it up.

Get a movie that you are familiar with, sit in your usual position and give the different modes a try.

In my setup I can't really identify the individual speakers with 3D mode on, which to me is the whole point. But my Center is below the screen, as are the FL/FR (a little higher than the Center and a bit wider than the screen), and my Heights are still wider and up high. Your setup is different, so you may not need #D (but do try it).

I know Trinnov is using all 5 speakers I have in front to create the stage, and the dialog comes to various degrees from all of them. But I don't watch movies with my ear next to the center speaker, just like I don't stick my head in the speaker arrays in the movie theater.

You may, or may not, have an Center channel issue, but you are not going to know either way, unless you sit in the vicinity of your usual seat and listen.

In my case, Trinnov does produce the best dialog and overall integration I've ever experienced in my room. I wish you the same.

But, if you haven't done it already, do take this MC-12 out of the chain and see what happens.
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post #384 of 649 Old 05-28-2012, 01:57 PM
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My level indication for the sub gets closer to the -19dB when I turn the sub gain up.When I turn the sub gain down the level gets further away from -19dB and the level starts getting to low and I start getting angle indications from the sub which leads to corrupt measurements.

My unit must be broken

The MC-12 is bypassed.It's not a factor and even when it's in the loop changing the trims doesn't change the levels for the other channels they stay relative to -19 to -20dB.Even when I turned up the volume level on the MC-12 the levels stayed the same only adjusting the sub's gain control seems to make any difference.

In my set-up using 3D mapping still makes a significant improvement in the soundstaging even though my speakers are set very close to ideal.
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post #385 of 649 Old 05-28-2012, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

The MC-12 is bypassed.It's not a factor and even when it's in the loop..

If I may ask, why is it in the loop? Is there something specific you are getting by having a second gain stage in the signal path?

Sanjay
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post #386 of 649 Old 05-29-2012, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

If I may ask, why is it in the loop? Is there something specific you are getting by having a second gain stage in the signal path?

Well I originally was going to try and be able to use L7 on the MC-12 with the combination of the 972 just using the Trinnov EQ portion(no spatial mapping) to due a comparison back and forth to see how I like 3D remapping vs. L7.I also was going to try and use the MC-12's volume control to a calibrated reference level to get an accurate indicator of volume vs.the 972's(which after running EQ is no longer an accurate indicator) and for added gain control adjustment to better balance levels.
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post #387 of 649 Old 05-29-2012, 02:00 PM
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I got the SPL meter out yesterday evening to see where the volume control indicates reference level like Curt suggested.I used a -30dB pink noise test signal which would equal 75dB on the meter and ended up needing to turn the volume up +12 dB to equal reference.So instead of my usual baseline -17 dB volume adjustment level that I listen at with the MC-12's THX reference,on the 972 the same equivalent level would ruffly be -5dB on the 972's volume control.

However,I noticed an issue while doing this and I don't know if my unit is defective or what,so I need help in determining if this is the case.Can any of you turn the volume control on the 972 to +0dB or higher with no audio playing through the unit and switch the unit from Trinnov position "none" to a position(1-3) and EQ or spatial mappimg don't need to be on and see if you clearly hear an audible constant interference like noise(don't know how to describe it but have never heard it before) coming from the sub when the unit is using a Trinnov position.

I only get this noise through the sub and only when the unit is set to use one of the Trinnov positions.When I switch the unit to none the sound goes away.I've confirmed that it originates from the 972 and is not the sub.I even connected the sub to the MC-12 and adjusted the volume all the way up to max and other than a very slight hiss this sound isn't present.It does this on every input when the Trinnov is engaged.The sound is very audible once I turn the volume up towards +0dB or higher from the listening position.

Also has anyone made mention of a sizzling sound coming from all the speakers after you run a calibration without the mic connected and the unit gives you a calibration error due to not picking up the test signal.I only tried this just to see if anything would work to eliminate the noise issue.

I'm starting to think my unit may be defective.
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post #388 of 649 Old 05-29-2012, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

Well I originally was going to try and be able to use L7 on the MC-12 with the combination of the 972 just using the Trinnov EQ portion(no spatial mapping)...

Feeding a room corrected signal into the MC-12 will prevent L7 from operating properly.

For example: when L7 sees the exact same content in the left & right channels, it extracts it to the centre output. If Trinnov corrects the left channel differently than the right channel (very likely), then the exact same content won't be seen as dual-mono and won't be extracted to the centre.

And that's just one example. If Trinnov cleans up the phase, then decorrelated (out of phase) signals might not be properly extracted to the surround channels. This is why room correction should be the very last step: after surround processing, after bass management, after time alignment, etc.

Feeding a Trinnov EQ'd signal into the MC-12 for surround processing can lead to a variety of problems. I would remove the pre-pro from the signal path and try to adjust PLIIx Music mode to sound closer to L7.

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post #389 of 649 Old 05-29-2012, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Feeding a room corrected signal into the MC-12 will prevent L7 from operating properly.

For example: when L7 sees the exact same content in the left & right channels, it extracts it to the centre output. If Trinnov corrects the left channel differently than the right channel (very likely), then the exact same content won't be seen as dual-mono and won't be extracted to the centre.

And that's just one example. If Trinnov cleans up the phase, then decorrelated (out of phase) signals might not be properly extracted to the surround channels. This is why room correction should be the very last step: after surround processing, after bass management, after time alignment, etc.

Feeding a Trinnov EQ'd signal into the MC-12 for surround processing can lead to a variety of problems. I would remove the pre-pro from the signal path and try to adjust PLIIx Music mode to sound closer to L7.

I was told by Curt that if I used L7 on top of Trinnov EQ as long as spatial remapping isn't on ,that it would be fine.You do bring up interesting points though to it not working properly.
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post #390 of 649 Old 05-29-2012, 03:06 PM
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Here is a quick question regarding using Zone 2 with Trinnov:

My Niles SPK-1 is acting out, so I am looking for an alternative.

I am currently using 7.1 (actually 9.1, since I have 2 speakers (high and low) wired to each of the surround channels) in my TV room and I am very happy with it.

I need to use 2 speakers plus powered sub in my stereo room, wired as 2.0 (this is where I was using the SPK-1).

Instead of using the SPK-1, I am thinking of using an existing DAC I have, take the signal from my HTPC's USB output, go through the DAC and feed analog signal to the CD analog input of the R-972.

Then I will plug in a stereo amp I have into the Room 2 analog outs of the R-972.

Then I will run Trinnov Optimizer for Room 2.

Any reason why the above shouldn't work? (I am assuming that the R-972 does not pass digital inputs to the Room 2 analog out.)

Actually, just thinking aloud, why can't simply use the FR/FL direct pre-outs to feed the Stereo amp driving my Stereo speakers, with a different Trinnov preset, thus eliminating the need for the DAC?
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