R972 Trinnov User Notes - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 650 Old 03-06-2012, 11:57 AM - Thread Starter
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The R972 cal mic is built by Trinnov for Sherwood. It's ideal for the Trinnov measurements and using any other kind of mic will result in errors. Included is a proprietary algorithm for analyzing the multiple capsules (verifies they are ok).

Our pro units have individually calibrated capsules.

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post #32 of 650 Old 03-06-2012, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post

Glad you are getting a lot out of the notes.

You'll only get distance for the sub- it's time and level aligned with the other speakers. It's not used for imaging, so direction is not required.

Per the notes- the auto xover setting can be "pushed" up or down with where the sub low pass is set. If you want a BM xover around 80Hz, the low pass should be set around 160. This is because the region of the xover should be flat (not have rolloff). I'm guessing you have the low pass filter on. Try raising the frequency to max. Also try without your sub's active correction. It's very possible our correction is better. Trust your ears.

If you had 8 tries, this alsoi could be because the level may be a bit low (in part affected by the low pass filter). Try this: start a cal. When it comes to the sub, if you get two sets of noise, turn it up a pinch. If you get another two sets of noise, repeat. Do this until you get the sub in one set of bursts. Ideally, you can get it where the level somewhat matches the sats.

Thanks, Curt.

I am awaiting a replacement unit, since this one is having some remote and HDMI issues, and will try your suggestions when the new one arrives.

At the same time, the subwoofer sounds really good -- it goes deep, but it is considerably better blended in than before.

In fact, everything sounds very noticeably better in my TV room -- I may sound like a fanboy, but Trinnov 3D is making such a dramatic difference for the better over Audyssey MultiEQ XT (and over no correction at all), that I am giddy

Watched My Week with Marilyn last night and my wife actually noted how good the sound is -- she called it "much smoother," which I attribute to the blending of the speakers that Trinnov does. The "Height" speakers blend perfectly, too -- basically the whole room is "alive" with sound, without making the locations of the specific speakers apparent, unless I stick my ear next to each speaker. Kind of amazing!

Haven't run Trinnov Optimizer in the Stereo room yet, will do it when the new receiver gets here. But the 7.1 + Stereo switching you suggested seems to works well with the Niles Audio SPK-1.
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post #33 of 650 Old 03-06-2012, 12:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post

Trinnov will automatically reduce overall gain in order to keep full digital headroom. The gain reduction is computed based on two key factors:

(1) level differences between speakers. Trinnov level matches all speakers and the difference between them must be accounted for in the overall level

(2) correction and Target boost, as much as 6dB

Between the level and EQ corrections, there can be a difference of 16dB or more. If the overall level is not reduced, digital distortion could result.

Things you can do to reduce the drop: Get your sub levels manually close to where it needs to be to match sats (Radio Shack meter it with the built in tones). Avoid having unequal speaker levels, such as speakers with different efficiencies, or speakers way far away that need unusual amounts of boost.
(snip)

Here's an example to illustrate the issue. Looks good- the satellites are all relatively close. The matching to sub could be improved. The lowest level is Front-L at -20, the highest is Sub at -13. This difference, along with possible EQ boost of +6 results in a difference as high as 19dB, so overall gain of the digital audio chain would be reduced by this amount to insure no digital overloads. In this example, turning down the sub 6-10 dB would improve the output level by about the same amount.
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post #34 of 650 Old 03-06-2012, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post

Glad you are getting a lot out of the notes.

You'll only get distance for the sub- it's time and level aligned with the other speakers. It's not used for imaging, so direction is not required.

That's good to know. I kept trying to get it to detect the sub after I re-calibrated. But why did it show me the angle (90 deg.) on previous calibrations? Fluke?
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post #35 of 650 Old 03-06-2012, 01:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acer View Post

That's good to know. I kept trying to get it to detect the sub after I re-calibrated. But why did it show me the angle (90 deg.) on previous calibrations? Fluke?

The algorithm doesn't look for sub angle. The combination of the mic size and low frequencies makes this a non-starter. If you or anyone gets a reported angle for the sub, please, I'd like a screen shot!

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post #36 of 650 Old 03-06-2012, 02:09 PM
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Well, got my R-972 hooked up. Let's just say that it hates my Martin Logan Electromotion speakers. (even toed them in way more than I should) Doesn't calculate anything finfo for them, just dashes. Has my sub crossed over at 19hz. Trying to manually do the trim level without trinnov since it can't find two of my speakers and even that seems a bit cumbersome. HDMI seems to work pretty well. So far, this will not replace my Anthem MRX in the main room. Maybe just a bedroom piece.
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post #37 of 650 Old 03-06-2012, 02:46 PM
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I'm waiting for a R-972...

I have dipole speakers though, Linkwitz Orion's. Will that be a problem for Trinnov..? I'm a bit worried about the post above since Martin Logan are dipoles as well...

Also, will it also be possible to use a non-matching , closed or ported centerchannel, and let Trinnov magically match that with the Orions..?? Will I get the 360-degree bubble....?

Thanks,
CH
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post #38 of 650 Old 03-06-2012, 02:48 PM
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Don't think it's a dipole/Martin Logan issue as I just returned from setting up a friend's system with a 972 and ML Prodigys. No problems, whatsoever.
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post #39 of 650 Old 03-07-2012, 09:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Anyone with panel speakers: panel speakers sometimes are tilted back with respect to the listening position. This mitigates them being too bright, by attenuating the highs at the listening position, as well as offsetting potentially hard reflections. The result is that the highs can be rolled off enough that the speaker location is not identified.

Remedy: place speakers vertical such that the mid-point of the panel is perpendicular to the listening position. Perpendicular alignment is more critical then toe in on curved panels (experiment with toe in separately, after you get good results). Run calibration, get results. When successful, set EQ to taste (per User Notes, remember Cinema EQ if too much top end).

For surround setups- you'll want to keep the new configuration to keep the correction alignment between all speakers in balance. If running stereo only, after cal, one could compare various EQ combinations (Trinnov+cinema) and/or tilt back the tops to roll off the high end, as is commonly done . This may be preferred, to mitigate a panel>wall>hard reflection. If you experiment with this, do some critical listening with both- and let us know what you prefer!!

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post #40 of 650 Old 03-07-2012, 09:39 AM
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Curt and other users,

I've had one to play with for a few days now and have a few questions. Last night I ran Trinnov calibration for the first time. I am only running 5.1 right now, so the computation only took about ten minutes. As I've been playing with the Trinnov settings, I've found that any of the remapping features are sucking the life out of the sound. There is hardly any bass and just an overall hollow tone. I'm wondering if there is a setup issue? I noticed after running the cal that I had my front left toed in too far, perhaps that is messing things up. With 3D remapping engaged, all dialog seems to be coming from the far right, past my front right speaker. Sort of bizzare. My center is located about 18 inches below the tweeter level of my L/R, so I was hoping the 3D remapping would help to raise the image a bit, but so far no luck.

The good news so far is that the Trinnov EQ is outstanding and with it engaged and spatial features off, the sound is great. It really tightened up my bass and took some slight muddiness from the center speaker which is inside a cabinet. This unit replaced a Marantz SR8001 that pooped out recently and the sound is definitely improved.

As other users have noted there are a few operational quirks but none are deal breakers, at least to me. Its a little sad that a flagship product can't dance beween audio codecs as gracefully as my cheapo yamaha soundbar. Its only a 2-3 second delay though, so not a huge deal. It is most noticeble during previews and menus of discs where the audio format is different each time. No clicking or cutouts once it is locked in on a movie or TV show though.

The RF remote is a nice touch, but would have been nice if it was backlit. Overall, at this price, I think this thing is a steal. Looking forward to experimenting more with speaker placement and hopefully being able to take advantage of the more advanced Trinnov features.

Thanks in advance for any help/ideas,
Matt
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post #41 of 650 Old 03-07-2012, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MFLUGSTA View Post

Curt and other users,

I've had one to play with for a few days now and have a few questions. Last night I ran Trinnov calibration for the first time. I am only running 5.1 right now, so the computation only took about ten minutes. As I've been playing with the Trinnov settings, I've found that any of the remapping features are sucking the life out of the sound. There is hardly any bass and just an overall hollow tone. I'm wondering if there is a setup issue? I noticed after running the cal that I had my front left toed in too far, perhaps that is messing things up. With 3D remapping engaged, all dialog seems to be coming from the far right, past my front right speaker. Sort of bizzare. My center is located about 18 inches below the tweeter level of my L/R, so I was hoping the 3D remapping would help to raise the image a bit, but so far no luck.

Can you post the optimizer results? Clearly there's a problem and the results will hopefully give some clues.
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post #42 of 650 Old 03-07-2012, 10:02 AM
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Matt,
I'm sure Curt has better ideas, but I would would try and run the calibration again if I were you. You could also try moving speakers around and or raising or lowering the height of the microphone. After I calibrated a previous time, the same thing happened where all of the center channel dialogue was coming through the left and right speakers and not the center channel at all. It didn't sound right. But I lowered the mic (making sure the mic was aimed straight ahead) and re-ran the calibration and all was well. I also raise the sub volume a little to help with the bass issue. I watched the Matrix on Blu ray last night and it sounded incredible.
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post #43 of 650 Old 03-07-2012, 10:16 AM
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Thanks for the help guys. I can post the optimizer results later. I will try lowering the mic. I have a pretty low couch, so I bought the shortest tripod I could find to position the mic at ear level. It was positioned correctly with red dot pointing at the center speaker. My setup is a little funky because I'm in a condo right now. My SR speaker is placed a couple feet forward but still to the side of the listening position. I'm wondering also if that overly toed in FL is effecting it in a negative fashion. I guess the only way to know is to rearrange and run it again. I have a passive sub run by my multichannel amp so there is no way for me to raise the bass level after calibration, but like I said with the spatial features off and Trinnov eq set to flat, the bass sounds perfect.
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post #44 of 650 Old 03-07-2012, 10:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Result: 2D and 3D remapping works incorrectly: sounds come from wrong loudspeakers (as the correct placements not found). The calibration sequence for good cal is three bursts per speaker output, along with good reported locations. This will result in great 2D and 3D performance. If you are not getting 2D/3D performance or if you get nine bursts followed by erroneous information (usually blank), it means that the speaker could not be properly located. This is caused by the hi frequency impulse (first arrival to the mic) being blocked or too weak.

Remedy:
This method is useful for all types of speakers: direct radiators, bi or di-poles, and panels.
  1. Read the R972 Trinnov User User Notes and follow the recommendations.
  2. Use your ears, listening carefully to the cal bursts, by rotating your head behind the mic as it measures each speaker. Listen for muffled highs. Per the User Notes, if you suspect a defective speaker, swap speakers to identify.
  3. If one speaker is difficult and you can't find the issue any other way, here is a technique that can get you to successful results: (A) connect troublesome speaker to the LEFT Speaker Output. It is now the first one. (B) With the microphone always on a tripod or other fixed position, move it directly in front of the speaker about three feet. Run CAL. If you get three bursts, followed by bursts at next speaker, this means speaker is OK from that position. Cancel calibration. (C) Move cal mic to axis in line with listening position (may not be on axis with front of speaker). Repeat cal. If good (three bursts) it means there is enough off-axis hi energy to get successful results up close. (D) Next, move closer to listening position, repeating until you have issue. Make adjustments in speaker aiming or position until resolved. Note: if you also listen to the bursts each time, you'll gain some insight to what is going on. When listening, move your head side to side and up and down. If you want to hear all nine bursts, disconnect the cal mic.

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post #45 of 650 Old 03-07-2012, 11:23 AM
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Thanks Curt. I will try some repositioning and see if I can get a better result. According to the initial calibration though, there were no errors locating any of the speakers and each only had three bursts. I will play with it though until I can get better results. Thanks again!
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post #46 of 650 Old 03-07-2012, 05:00 PM
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So I took Curt's advice and played with the rake on my Martin Logans so that they were 90 degrees from the floor and the mic was halfway up the panels. I still got 9 bursts for the left and rights. 3 burst for the remaining 5 speakers. Also tired toeing them in directly at the mic as well as raising and lowering the mic to see if I could get the first speaker with 3 tones. Nothing. Got better results yesterday without playing with the rake.

Speaker are not damaged at least according to the Anthem ARC file that I have from which was done two days ago after I moved the subwoofer. The left and rights are identical in the ARC file for db and feq.
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post #47 of 650 Old 03-07-2012, 06:30 PM
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Curt,
I went through another calibration and the issue of the image being pushed to the far right still remains with 2D and 3D. As I noted earlier, my setup is far from ideal, but is dictated by my room. My right surround is actually 4 feet or so in front of the listening position but to the side and facing at the mic. Left surround is behind listening position.

Here are the results from calibration:

Front L: H Angle: 46 V Angle: 95 Dist: 3.15 m
Center: H Angle: 11 V Angle: 105 Dist: 2.72 m
Front R: H Angle: -9 V Angle: 96 Dist: 3.05 m
Surround R: H Angle: -44 V Angle: 92 Dist: 2.68 m
Surround L H Angle 133 V Angle 91 Dist: 1.97 m
Sub: 0,0 Dist: 1.61 m

What's also interesting is that my -6 db point for my Fronts was said to be 80Hz. They are Linn 5140's with the upgraded Espek drivers which are rated +/- 3db down to 30 Hz. This must just demonstrate how poorly located they are in my room for bass. No complaints there though. With the Trinnov EQ set to Flat (and currently all spatial features off), the bass sounds extremely powerful and is blending well.

How is the vertical Angle determined during calibration? I had the mic height positioned roughly at ear and tweeter level, yet all of my V Angles are over 90 degrees.

Thanks in advance for any help.
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post #48 of 650 Old 03-07-2012, 06:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MFLUGSTA View Post


I went through another calibration and the issue of the image being pushed to the far right still remains with 2D and 3D. (snip)
Here are the results from calibration:

Front L: H Angle: 46 V Angle: 95 Dist: 3.15 m
Center: H Angle: 11 V Angle: 105 Dist: 2.72 m
Front R: H Angle: -9 V Angle: 96 Dist: 3.05 m
Surround R: H Angle: -44 V Angle: 92 Dist: 2.68 m
Surround L H Angle 133 V Angle 91 Dist: 1.97 m
Sub: 0,0 Dist: 1.61 m

What's also interesting is that my -6 db point for my Fronts was said to be 80Hz. (snip)

How is the vertical Angle determined during calibration? I had the mic height positioned roughly at ear and tweeter level, yet all of my V Angles are over 90 degrees.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Hi Pat-

Your mic aimed at center with image right of center... Then something is wrong with the mic config- because the angles are not adding up to where the speakers are. You're aiming at center(?), it's off by 11 deg? If you rotate all locations 11 deg, you'd get:

Front L: H Angle: 46 > 35
Center: H Angle: 11 > 0
Front R: H Angle: -9 > -20
Surround R: H Angle: -44 > -55
Surround L H Angle 133 > 122

Is this more like your actual locations? Maybe rotate the mic to get the center aligned to 0 deg (that is where you want center image?) You can confirm the mic is working properly by aiming at a specific speaker, then looking for results that line up with that. Maybe do a couple of cals till you get the center close to 0 (by rotating mic). Ideally one can aim by looking down the top of the center capsule to the front capsule. When you get center close to 0 deg, run computations.

As for vertical angle- 90 deg = level, so they are all measuring 1-15 deg above above the mic.

"-6dB point" is the - 6dB point for full range, and the xover point when a sub is used. Xover is based on both the "-6dB point" and the range of the sub, so this looks OK.

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post #49 of 650 Old 03-07-2012, 07:59 PM
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Curt,

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I'll play around with height and aiming and see what I can come up with.

Matt
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post #50 of 650 Old 03-07-2012, 08:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Go for it Matt. Confued you w Pat, PGriff1051, working on getting the Martin Logans fired up. I know he'll be rewarded with success with a little bit of effort: we've got a local- Gary, who got his big ML's going with the R972. Maybe RUR can report on that.

Cheers-

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post #51 of 650 Old 03-08-2012, 06:24 AM
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I just wanted to join the chorus of thanks to Curt for taking the time to help out, very nice.I'll also say that Trinnov is the only RC I ever used that I like
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post #52 of 650 Old 03-08-2012, 06:25 AM
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Hi Curt,

When we set up Greg's Prodigy/Velo DD-15 2.1 system, all we did was to level match the mains/sub @ ~75dB before running the 972 Trinnov setup. Unlike newer ML's the Prodigy panels are vertical by design i.e. no rake. Toe-in was as per the ML "flashlight" technique with the inner third of the panels pointed @ the LP. Calibration completed first try with no issues.

As you know, in my ML Summit system, I also have the panels set to vertical and have run a number of calibrations with no issues. This, of course, with the ST-2 Pro vs. the Sherwood. Done with jury duty, so I'll do my best to take the set of measurements we discussed, yesterday.

Ken
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post #53 of 650 Old 03-08-2012, 07:20 AM
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I've got some reconfiguring to do too. When I engaged 2D/3D mapping, the dialogue is coming most prevalent from my right surround speaker.
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post #54 of 650 Old 03-08-2012, 08:06 AM
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Talked to Curt last night, very very helpful. (outside of showing up at my house to calibrate it, he could not have been more helpful)

Have some more things to try. There is a lot of rake on the Electromotions and it's the smallest panel. You can't get the speaker vertical with the spikes and the plastic stopper. Will try to take the plastic stoppers off of the front spikes to see if I can get the spikes in further.

Maybe I'll just go buy new speakers and put these in the bedroom
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post #55 of 650 Old 03-08-2012, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PGriff1051 View Post

Talked to Curt last night, very very helpful. (outside of showing up at my house to calibrate it, he could not have been more helpful)

Have some more things to try. There is a lot of rake on the Electromotions and it's the smallest panel. You can't get the speaker vertical with the spikes and the plastic stopper. Will try to take the plastic stoppers off of the front spikes to see if I can get the spikes in further.

Maybe I'll just go buy new speakers and put these in the bedroom

Curt has been unbelievably helpful in every possible way. Since he lives and works nearby, he actually does show up at my house!

In re ML rake: I had to purchase aftermarket spikes for my Summits to get them vertical, but there should be some simple way to accomplish this just long enough to test a vertical measurement. I wouldn't give up on the EM ESL's too fast - by all accounts they're remarkable speakers.

Just a thought... At what volume level are you doing the calibration?
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post #56 of 650 Old 03-08-2012, 08:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post

I've got some reconfiguring to do too. When I engaged 2D/3D mapping, the dialogue is coming most prevalent from my right surround speaker.

Even after calibration and computation, you can go back and look at the Trinnov data to check if it lines up with where the image is you are hearing. If there is a match between the numbers and what you are hearing, the Trinnov code is working. Next, verify the mic. If your image is off by anywhere near 120 degrees from where you aimed, it's possible you either haven't identified the red dot/front.

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post #57 of 650 Old 03-08-2012, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RUR View Post

Curt has been unbelievably helpful in every possible way. Since he lives and works nearby, he actually does show up at my house!

In re ML rake: I had to purchase aftermarket spikes for my Summits to get them vertical, but there should be some simple way to accomplish this just long enough to test a vertical measurement. I wouldn't give up on the EM ESL's too fast - by all accounts they're remarkable speakers.

Just a thought... At what volume level are you doing the calibration?

Not sure the volume, didn't know you you raise the volume and have it impact Trinnov setup...usually the volume for auto calibration are fixed in the software. Except for the Emo UMC which BTW, blew one of my speakers when I went ot use their calibration.
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post #58 of 650 Old 03-08-2012, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by PGriff1051 View Post

Not sure the volume, didn't know you you raise the volume and have it impact Trinnov setup...usually the volume for auto calibration are fixed in the software. Except for the Emo UMC which BTW, blew one of my speakers when I went ot use their calibration.

I can tell you that the volume absolutely has an effect with the ST-2 Pro. If set too low, speakers won't cal and, instead of a successful run with three bursts, it simply keeps sending bursts until it declares failure. I've only done one cal with my friend's 972 @ 75dB and it was fine. You might try turning up the volume a bit on your next try and it shouldn't have to be so loud that there's any risk of speaker damage. If you have an SPL meter, try 75-80dB bursts.

Edited to add: Meanwhile, rake angle may also be a factor as raking the stat panel back rolls off the highs. So, try fiddling with both volume and rake.
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post #59 of 650 Old 03-08-2012, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post


Even after calibration and computation, you can go back and look at the Trinnov data to check if it lines up with where the image is you are hearing. If there is a match between the numbers and what you are hearing, the Trinnov code is working. Next, verify the mic. If your image is off by anywhere near 120 degrees from where you aimed, it's possible you either haven't identified the red dot/front.

Thanks, that might explain it. I had the mic facing my speakers but I think the dot was off to the side. Seems critical that "front" and the red dot are facing up towards the ceiling.
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post #60 of 650 Old 03-08-2012, 10:45 AM
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Thanks, that might explain it. I had the mic facing my speakers but I think the dot was off to the side. Seems critical that "front" and the red dot are facing up towards the ceiling.

To be clear, the red dot should be aimed where you want the center of the sound 'image'. Hence on the optimizer output you should see close to 0 degrees for the center channel if your center channel is located at the same position as your target 'center'. The mic 'pods' should be pointing up towards the ceiling.
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