R972 Trinnov User Notes - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 649 Old 03-08-2012, 10:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post

Thanks, that might explain it. I had the mic facing my speakers but I think the dot was off to the side. Seems critical that "front" and the red dot are facing up towards the ceiling.

The mic capsules should be vertically aligned (pointing at the ceiling), the red dot at where you want the front image to be.

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post #62 of 649 Old 03-08-2012, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post

The mic capsules should be vertically aligned (pointing at the ceiling), the red dot at where you want the front image to be.

Can you clarify this?

I thought the mic capsules were to be at ear height, but pointed towards the ceiling, and the dot point (facing) toward where the front image should be, which could be higher or lower than the mic. This could result in the capsules being "tilted", correct?

This would seem crucial for the 3D remapping.

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post #63 of 649 Old 03-08-2012, 11:24 AM
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Curtis,

its quite simple actually. Mount the mic on the tripod vertical, so it automatically points to ceiling. Put tripod at listening position, adjust the height so the mic is at ear-height. Then aim the red dot to be at the center position. The tilt will only occur if the center is not at ear-height. But then in that case, you should aim the red-dot where the center should be - vertically as well as horizontally.

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post #64 of 649 Old 03-08-2012, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adude View Post

Curtis,

its quite simple actually. Mount the mic on the tripod vertical, so it automatically points to ceiling. Put tripod at listening position, adjust the height so the mic is at ear-height. Then aim the red dot to be at the center position. The tilt will only occur if the center is not at ear-height. But then in that case, you should aim the red-dot where the center should be - vertically as well as horizontally.

Hey Manoj...

Yup...that is how I plan to do it.

I am just waiting for my unit to arrive...supposedly tomorrow.

Don't worry...I have your phone number if I run into trouble.

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post #65 of 649 Old 03-08-2012, 11:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adude View Post

Curtis,

its quite simple actually. Mount the mic on the tripod vertical, so it automatically points to ceiling. Put tripod at listening position, adjust the height so the mic is at ear-height. Then aim the red dot to be at the center position. The tilt will only occur if the center is not at ear-height. But then in that case, you should aim the red-dot where the center should be - vertically as well as horizontally.

Correct. Aim red dot where you want the front center of the image to appear. Also important to note that the cal mic must be rigid for duration of the cal sequence- on a tripod or otherwise solidly placed, without any close reflective surfaces. As an example, avoid placing it on objects such as a pile of books, or a high chair back blocks sounds (raise it in this case, above level of chair).

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post #66 of 649 Old 03-08-2012, 01:11 PM
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How does that affect where the mic capsules should be pointing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by adude View Post

Curtis,

its quite simple actually. Mount the mic on the tripod vertical, so it automatically points to ceiling. Put tripod at listening position, adjust the height so the mic is at ear-height. Then aim the red dot to be at the center position. The tilt will only occur if the center is not at ear-height. But then in that case, you should aim the red-dot where the center should be - vertically as well as horizontally.

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post #67 of 649 Old 03-08-2012, 01:29 PM
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Canted sealing has no effect on the measurements.

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post #68 of 649 Old 03-08-2012, 01:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moparfan View Post

How does that affect where the mic capsules should be pointing?

Here's the deal: the mic capsules are "side address." We are not concerned with the ceiling, but proper alignment. This is all about aiming correctly to get the proper 3D image. Focus on alignment per the instructions:

"Aim the Red Dot WHERE you want your 2D/3D image aligned. The height of the image will match, ideally (all factors considered), the plane the mic is in- that is, the same plane the mic base is in."

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post #69 of 649 Old 03-08-2012, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
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A reminder for new folks to this thread:

There are R972 Trinnov User Notes found here:

www.cahoyt.com/Trinnov/R972Trinnov.com

The goal with this thread is three-fold:

(1) that we all enjoy Trinnov to the max allowed by our individual system configurations

(2) That our knowledge can be shared collectively by posting both great experiences and issues

and

(3) We may collectively better document R972 TRINNOV use so that others may benefit. To this end, I'll occasionally update the User Notes.

It is assumed that if you are commenting in this thread, that you have read the relevant parts of the User Notes before posting here. That will make this thread a more efficient place for all of us.

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post #70 of 649 Old 03-08-2012, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post

Here's the deal: the mic capsules are "side address." We are not concerned with the ceiling, but proper alignment. This is all about aiming correctly to get the proper 3D image. Focus on alignment per the instructions:

"Aim the Red Dot WHERE you want your 2D/3D image aligned. The height of the image will match, ideally (all factors considered), the plane the mic is in- that is, the same plane the mic base is in."

Curt...I think what threw me off in the earlier post, and would have done so in this post as well, is that you don't reference the height of the mic.

BTW...the link above is incorrect:
http://www.cahoyt.com/Trinnov/R972Trinnov.pdf

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post #71 of 649 Old 03-08-2012, 02:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks! Yes

www.cahoyt.com/Trinnov/R972Trinnov.pdf

Thanks for the feedback. I'm updating the notes regarding the mic, as the mic is unusual enough to confuse several folks here.

I've had it happen to me... We also have a professional recording system that records in surround- another use of the 3D math that makes the R972 cool. It collects acoustic samples of the sound and reconstructs a perfect ITU 5 channel image. Pretty cool stuff. The first time I used it in the studio, I had it setup backwards! Imagine the look on everyone's face, including mine, when we played back the sound over the control room monitors and the image was backwards! Where were the user notes?!
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post #72 of 649 Old 03-09-2012, 02:16 PM - Thread Starter
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The notes have been updated,
  • Table of contents
  • Calibrations, speaker types, layouts, details, hints
  • Internet links, including R972 Manual

I hope this is of help to all current and future R972 users. Comments welcome! Anyone tried some of the advanced setups or have unusual configurations?

www.cahoyt.com/trinnov/r972trinnov.pdf

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post #73 of 649 Old 03-09-2012, 10:03 PM
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Curt:
Thank you for your efforts to support the R972. I recently purchased an R972 and I am having some difficulty using the Trinnov correction in my somewhat unusual setup. This is actually my second R972; my first is working well in a fairly standard 5.1 system. The system that is giving me problems is a 4.1 system (my room layout doesn't allow for a center channel), consisting of 4 Magnepan MC1s (wall mounted) and an Emotiva 12" sealed sub. My source is an Oppo BDP-83 SE connected via HDMI. I initially hooked everything up and used the R972's test tone generator to verify correct connection. Then I ran a Trinnov calibration. Everything appeared to work (each speaker was identified after the initial three burst segment), and the angles and distances reported seemed reasonable. After completing the calibration I selected Natural Eq and 2D spatial mode. However, when I was checking the calibration using the Chesky DVD-Audio test disc, I noticed that the rear channels were not mapped correctly. The left rear signal from the disc was not playing and the right rear signal was playing in the left rear speaker. I tried another test disc (the Telarc 1812 SACD with test tones) with the same result. I also noted that while the other spatial modes behaved in the same way, if I selected "none" for the spatial mode, neither rear channel test tone would play. The eq setting did not appear to have any effect. I then turned off all of the Trinnov processing, and all of the signals were in their proper locations. Attempting to correct the issues, I ran several more Trinnov calibrations. Each time the calibration appeared to work, providing accurate distances and angles; but with no change in the results. Through all of this the front channels seemed to be functioning properly. I have reviewed the manual and the application notes, and I'm not sure where to go from here. Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to try to be sure I provided all of the relevant information. Any suggestions?
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post #74 of 649 Old 03-09-2012, 11:14 PM - Thread Starter
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cpoole17-

Thanks. You did a super job with the setup. Good going on the details, and thanks for reporting in depth- very useful in sorting out possible causes.

Angles, distances look reasonable for your 4.1 configuration, but remapping isn't working. I suggest you keep this position preset for reference. Then hook up a temporary center channel and repeat your cal as before, store in a new position preset. See what you get, and let us know. Specifically, the test is to get the same approximate data for the existing setup with center added, then compare the results. Do you then get the same errors?

Everyone considering 4.1 thanks you for the effort-

Cheers,

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post #75 of 649 Old 03-10-2012, 05:58 AM
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I still have questions regarding the Trinnov setup with my Def Tech BP 2002 fronts. I have them hooked up the way I've always hooked them up: a full-range cable, + & - into one of the three inputs on the back of the speaker. Always worked fine with other receivers; just configured the system with "Large" speakers, and got fine bass response from them. In setting up the R-972, I have them hooked up the same way...into the R & L front speaker connections; no "Sub" inputs at all. There doesn't appear to be any place to designate "Large" or "Small" in the receiver setup. Does it just assume you have an outboard ? During the Trinnov setup, it tests for a sub, but, of course, there isn't one.

Now, the speakers appear to have fine bass, but I'm just curious what you think. Are the amplifiers in the speaker subs being utilized? Am I OK with my setup? It sounds like plenty of bass to me, plus I can turn up the bass level on the subs if I want more.

If I understand correctly, I could also hook them up if I ran a Y cable out of the receiver's sub preout. You mention another option, but I'm not sure of what you mean.

Also, where should the volume be set when calibrating?

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post #76 of 649 Old 03-10-2012, 07:44 AM
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If all my 5.1 speakers except for the sub are physically above the level where I want the image centered (a built in plasma), then could I add a single speaker down below (in the cabinet below the plasma that houses the sub) to generate the "incremental height" signal that would enable Trinnov to pull the image down to screen level? (If "yes" which 972 output would I use?)
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post #77 of 649 Old 03-10-2012, 08:52 AM
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Curt-
I performed the calibration as you suggested, with a temporary center channel (a Klipsch RSX 4). The reported angles and distances for the other speakers were almost the same as before (within a couple of degrees). I set the eq to natural and the spatial setting was 3d remap. When I played the test disc, the channels mapped to the correct locations. I immediately disconnected the center channel and ran another calibration with the microphone in the same spot. When I then played the test disc, the channels did not map correctly (exactly as before). So the problem does seem to be related to the center channel. Any suggestions on what I might try next?
Thanks for a the support!
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post #78 of 649 Old 03-10-2012, 10:12 AM - Thread Starter
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cpoole17 confirms 4.1 speaker error, with no error with same setup with added center = 5.1.

We're on track. We've identified an issue I'll define after a few more tests. Here we go:
  1. Using the 4.1 position preset, select SPTL = AUTO (auto route). With test disc, please report back what channels went where? L>FL, etc.
  2. With the 4.1 setup set to 2D/3D, please confirm remapping is actually on: using test disc- when a single channel plays, is it 100% in a single speaker, or is there some signal in other speakers too, as would be expected with 2d/3d? Compare to 5.1 setup, if helpful.
  3. Let's try a potential fix. Repeat your 5.1 test, but this time, we'll change the center placement to minimize it's spatial impact, then compare with removing it. Place the center in the rear. Calibrate with Cal Mic facing forward (away from center speaker). Set to 2D/3D. Play test disc with and without the center (by disconnecting it). If test disc OK, listen to your typical content- and let us know if it's acceptable.

What's your first name? Anyone use those here?

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post #79 of 649 Old 03-10-2012, 10:24 AM - Thread Starter
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jjaymz has "Full Range Speakers with built in Powered Subs," and no seperate subwoofer.

OK, jj:

Trinnov determines automatically that you have full range, no subs, reports this to the processor. It then corrects for full range in your speakers. Your bass amps are being utilized. Two things you could do:

(1) try a surround test disc with LFE and confirm (playing LFE track only) you are getting LFE directed to the full range speakers. Please report your finding.

(2) optimize the level match between speaker/sub. The speaker instructions must have a "correct setting" for this, as it's a common setup for stereo system with these speakers. To verify: connect one of the speakers subs, i.e. front left, to the sub out. Calibrate, look at speaker/sub levels. Adjust, repeat till they are the same.

Cheers,

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post #80 of 649 Old 03-10-2012, 10:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucemck2 View Post

If all my 5.1 speakers except for the sub are physically above the level where I want the image centered (a built in plasma), then could I add a single speaker down below (in the cabinet below the plasma that houses the sub) to generate the "incremental height" signal that would enable Trinnov to pull the image down to screen level? (If "yes" which 972 output would I use?)

Hi Bruce

Yes, you can try this to effectively pull down the image. You have 5.1, so you could use one or both back outputs to help pull down the image. When extra channels are used to make 2D/3D image changes, the system then will only work in 2D/3D. Without Trinnov engaged, you would have an effective routing error.

Cheers

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post #81 of 649 Old 03-10-2012, 11:54 AM
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Curt,

I took your advice and was much more careful aiming the red dot at my screen and now the 3D remap is very impressive. The image is no longer shifted to the right. Its use, however, seems limited in a smaller room like my mine where the fronts are pretty far apart as anyone who is not in the sweet spot is going to hear dialog coming from the left or right front channel. It seems the ideal room scenario to benefit from the 3D remapping would be longer, narrow room where the fronts could be located very close to the sides of the screen to minimize the distraction of dialog coming from them. This is assuming of course that one needed to change the image height based on having a center channel below or above the screen.

The main problem though is that with remapping on, I am having to raise the overall level by 10db so get an equivalent sound level to having the spatial features off. The bass is reduced to almost nothing. My sub is passive and there is no gain control on my amp (ADA PTM-1260), so I have no way to boost the level to compensate like those with powered subs are able to. Is the +6db boost file still available from Sherwood? It appears that their website is not even functioning at this time. Is there a specific contact there to get in touch with?

Matt
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post #82 of 649 Old 03-10-2012, 12:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Matt:

Your system is operating correctly given your setup.

Good. With fronts wide apart, spatial resolution is lost, sweet spot reduced in size. You confirm this. Improve by adding speakers to the front.

Levels: Overall gain is reduced only to not have digital overloads. Loudest channel wins: The channel that has to be turned up the most, because of distance, remapping (again distance), differing efficiencies, EQ boosting- ends up lowering all other channels. The only way to remedy this is to change your arrangement so that it is more in balance, or leave it the way it is, knowing your system is operating correctly given your setup.

Sub: you have effectively what jjaymz has above: Full Range Speakers with built in Powered Subs- except your sub is passive. All comments apply: yours is treated as "full range speaker." If your sub is not matched to your speakers, Trinnov will correct- within the limit of +6/-12dB.

The +6db boost file is available from Sherwood, but it only affects the sub output.

PM me for consulting if you want to pursue this in more depth.

Cheers,

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post #83 of 649 Old 03-10-2012, 02:07 PM
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Curt- my first name is Chris

Ok, here are the results of my tests:

1. With the 4.1 calibration and spatial set to autoroute, the front left signal goes to the front left speaker, the center goes to both the left front and right front speakers (i.e. phantom center), the right front signal goes to the right front speaker, the right rear signal goes to the left rear speaker, the left rear signal is not heard, and the sub signal goes to the sub. These are the same results as with 2D/3D.

2. With spatial set to 2D/3D, I could hear the signal in other channels. I verified this by playing a left front signal, disconnecting that speaker, and listening to the right front speaker.

3. I ran a calibration with the "center" speaker positioned at approximately center rear. After this, with spatial set to 2D, the signals for all of the channels mapped appropriately. The center channel signal mapped to the front left and front right speakers, and when playing a rear left or rear right signal it was only faintly audible in the speaker at center rear with my ear right next to it. When playing 5.1 music, there was also a faintly audible signal in the center rear position. However, it was not noticable when I disconnected that speaker.

Thanks again for all of the support!
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post #84 of 649 Old 03-10-2012, 04:31 PM
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Curt, thank you so much for starting this thread! I hope I don't wear you out with all of the questions I have.

First, a little background:

I'm back to a 972 after having one of the early ones and selling it over frustration with setup issues; it was followed by a Denon 4810, and then a 4811.

My interest in Trinnov was reignited by Dan Francis' thread in the High End forum http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1366849 , and the realization that even with 11 ch, Audyssey XT32, and a Pro kit, the Denons' sound still wasn't as good as it had been with the 972 (at least for a couple of the setups); it never matched the ease and refinement of the 972's sound, with or w/o EQ.

With my new 972 I haven't yet equaled the mellifluous sound and sonic bubble I lucked into with one of the setup attempts with my first one, though I'd still take what I have right now over the Denon's.

OK, now to my questions; to increase digestibility I'm going to break my questions up into several posts.

How to get good measurements

As others, I've had difficulty getting all of my speakers to be recognized.

Curt's suggestions have been very helpful, but one thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is an apparent randomness to the results; while fussing with tiny adjustments to the mike to get the center to be at 0 deg azimuth, various of the surround speakers would fail to be recognized.

Sometimes I would change nothing and the same thing would happen.

I guess it could be that I'm not exactly following the guideline to point the speakers directly at the mike.

All of my speakers are monopolar controlled directivity designs, which at midrange and above freq gives a diminishing output off axis with minimal treble rolloff.

L/C/R are 18Sound 12ND710 woofers with BMS 4552ND compression drivers on XT1086 horns and the surrounds are B&C 8CX21 coaxials.

All of them are crossfired to maintain uniform SPL over the two-row listening area; (see 1st and 2nd pics)..

I haven't had problems with the fronts except once for no apparent reason (that randomness again), but the surrounds have been problematic.

I'd just repoint them but I spent a lot of time making fixed plate mounts that set the desired angles and they're screwed onto the walls.

What I don't understand is why Trinnov would be so sensitive to this; I'd think that it would straightforward to distinguish between the first arrival sound and the earliest reflection, even if the latter were somehow louder, as long as there's enough time between them.

I have to say my jaw dropped when Curt suggested using a pair of speakers per channel; if I'm having trouble getting it to recognize a single speaker, presumably because of reflections, I'd think a second speaker would drive it nuts.

How does Trinnov distinguish between a second speaker and a very strong, very early reflection, unless it's at exactly the same distance as the first?

Curt, can you shed any light on what parameters Trinnov uses to decide that a measurement is good?
LL
LL

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post #85 of 649 Old 03-10-2012, 04:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Noah

it's first arrival impulse at hi frequencies, and there is no confusion with early reflections. You need enough SPL of the hi frequency content of the impulse to arrive at the mic. I suggest that you try the method outlined for speakers that are not found, where you first try to get localization (3 bursts), then find out when and where it is lost (function of distance/SPL and/or angle to speaker). That will provide the clue you need to get it right.

For a given condition, two summed speakers are generally not an issue. I've done it several times.

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post #86 of 649 Old 03-10-2012, 05:21 PM
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Volume control is disabled during setup. so the only way to get it louder would be with an external amp, which I'd be willing to do if that would help.

But I think it's plenty loud (surrounds are 94 dB/1W/1m), as you can see from the SPL graphs of my room quiet and while the tones are playing, and I'd think 30 dB S/N is ample - or is it?

Can you say what freq it's looking for?

8CX21 polar response attached if that helps.

Thanks
LL
LL
LL

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post #87 of 649 Old 03-10-2012, 05:40 PM
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I think Curt mentioned it looks for the high freqs.
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post #88 of 649 Old 03-10-2012, 05:56 PM - Thread Starter
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I'd think 30 dB S/N is ample- yes, we look for a minimum "crest factor" = s/n of 30 or so.

Noah: you're going the have to try the stated program for difficult speakers. Page 5, item 3 of v2.5 of the Trinnov User Notes. Hook up the offenders to the first two inputs (LR) and run the tests mentioned. Don't bother with looking at the 972 plots at first. Put the mic in optimal placement for the rears, see you get them in 3 bursts, etc- to find where you loose them. It may be an axis or distance issue. You won't know till you try. You'll figure out if more gain or re-aiming the speakers (if temporarily) will help. We need your data to figure out what is up.

Sorry you have to make it like pinging with sonar, but the R972 doesn't report our error codes. In your case, we know what they are anyway: speaker not found.

Go for it- you've been interested long enough to make it right!!

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post #89 of 649 Old 03-10-2012, 06:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Helping you all out, I revisited some of the code stuff from back in 2008, when the final code for the r972 was burned.

You all ask about the differences in Trinnov versions...
For the R972, Trinnov processing is DSP constrained to 32 bit floating point, great in a $1800 box. In the Trinnov Pro and ADA units, all processing is 64 bit floating point. The importance of the hi bit depth is the intermediate math in the calculations. Think multiply-divide-multiply-divide... 32 bit floating point is great, 64 bit is icing on the cake.

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post #90 of 649 Old 03-10-2012, 06:08 PM
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But what about the randomness part - like I said, sometimes it fine and sometimes it isn't.

But I guess that could just mean it's borderline.

And per my first post I'd still like to know what exactly is provoking it, or would you have to divulge propriety data to answer that?

OK, leaving to go out with the lady...

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