R972 Trinnov User Notes - Page 6 - AVS Forum
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post #151 of 649 Old 03-28-2012, 01:40 PM - Thread Starter
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See post 135 above...

___________
Curt Hoyt
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post #152 of 649 Old 03-28-2012, 02:59 PM
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Ryan1:

A re-set is not necessary after loading in new target curves via the USB input.

Jeff
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post #153 of 649 Old 03-28-2012, 03:37 PM
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Thanks, Jeff and Curt. The no need to reset is great.

But, can the target curves be loaded to an already calibrated position, without the need to recalibrate it?
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post #154 of 649 Old 03-28-2012, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan1 View Post

Thanks, Jeff and Curt. The no need to reset is great.

But, can the target curves be loaded to an already calibrated position, without the need to recalibrate it?


Yes

Jeff
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post #155 of 649 Old 03-28-2012, 07:47 PM
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What do I need to do to get the usb files?
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post #156 of 649 Old 03-29-2012, 04:47 AM
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I would love to try out the +3 and +6 curves as well. What is the procedure for getting the curves and loading them?

Thanks,
Ted
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post #157 of 649 Old 03-29-2012, 08:52 AM
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I watched The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo Blu-ray last night witn Trinnov on the R-972. Wow! I've never heard surround sound this impressive before. Nothing sounds like it comes from individual speakers, it is just there in the room completely enveloping you.

I wish Trinnov would do better marketing to get this technology out in the public more.

MIKE

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post #158 of 649 Old 03-29-2012, 10:02 AM - Thread Starter
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To acquire updates, contact fellow R972 uses or Sherwood directly: support ( at) sherwoodamerica (dot) com

What we know about updates:

They are uploaded to the R972 via USB memory card/stick
A reset of the system is not required to use

To take advantage of the "new" curve profiles, you must shoot a new calibration.

If you want to store different curves. It is an open question if you may be able to calibrate to different curves and keep then in the three presets, i.e. Preset 1 = 0db curve, Preset 2= +3dB curve, Preset 3= +6dB curve. As reported here, you may or may not be successful doing this.

What we can tell you about the algorithm: There is a finite amount of data storage on the R972 where the presets are stored, so Cal Data is never kept. Therefore, if you load a new curve, you'll have to run a new cal to process the new curve.

The process goes as follows: Cal run. Cal Data is in RAM. When a Calibration is aborted, the Cal Data is deleted. If Computation is selected, Computation computes all the EQs and Remappings for the preset based on the Cal Data and curve profile in the system. These are then stored for recall and the original Cal Data is DESTROYED, because there is not room to keep it. Therefore, if you load a new curve (form 0 to +3, as an example), you will have to RUN a CAL in order for a new computation on the data. It is unknown what happens if you have three existing presets, load a new curve and then try to only run a new cal on one and expect to keep the others.

It has been reported here that USB updating the curve has resulted in some cases where individuals have been able to keep different curves in the presets. Other individuals have reported that the previous curves get wiped out, requiring new calibrations. If you happen to be one of the folks who has experience storing multiple curves on your system, let us all know. It is a time consuming process, so let's get the word out one way or the other.

BTW, Trinnov products (other then R972) keep the original cal data in the preset. When the user wants to change any parameter relating to the calibration, they can re-compute the results and listen immediately. Most Trinnov users take several cals from various room positions and have this available anytime. The only time new cals are taken is if either the speaker or listener position changes.

Cheers,

___________
Curt Hoyt
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Trinnov Audio
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post #159 of 649 Old 03-29-2012, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post

...
To take advantage of the "new" curve profiles, you must shoot a new calibration.

...

Therefore, if you load a new curve (form 0 to +3, as an example), you will have to RUN a CAL in order for a new computation on the data. It is unknown what happens if you have three existing presets, load a new curve and then try to only run a new cal on one and expect to keep the others....

Ah, as I feared. Loading one of the new custom curves may screw up my existing calibration.

I think I'll wait, since I am happy with my current set up and the bass is well defined (but not overwhelming).

I did not find bumping my sub's volume level up 3 or 6 steps all that appealing (on some scenes the bass is just too much) -- I am assuming the +3 and +6 curves do a better job than just the sub's volume, but is it really much better?

For now, I'll just leave it as is and just enjoy it.

Thanks.
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post #160 of 649 Old 03-29-2012, 07:47 PM
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I contacted Sherwood for files and other info by email.I got a reply within about two hours with files and answers, pretty cool.

I have tried recalibrating many times but the very first time I used it when I first got my 972 is still the best one.I've set it all up the same, or really close but never have got the great sound like the first cal.

If you have a cal you really like you may want to keep it as long as you can.I still have my original and hope I never have to reset this thing.
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post #161 of 649 Old 04-02-2012, 08:33 AM
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trinnov hates my ribbons - getting a good cal is such a chore

REW...most expensive freeware ever...

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post #162 of 649 Old 04-02-2012, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twylight View Post

trinnov hates my ribbons - getting a good cal is such a chore

If you are talking about your Phils, I don't think it is an issue with your ribbons. The ribbon is this case is the tweeters and midrange.

I think the issue is with the open back midrange.

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post #163 of 649 Old 04-02-2012, 11:30 AM
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nah i stuffed the back full...its always 6-7 degree off in a multichannel reading

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post #164 of 649 Old 04-02-2012, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twylight View Post

nah i stuffed the back full...its always 6-7 degree off in a multichannel reading

Ahh...

There are some tricks listed on how to point the mic accurately.

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post #165 of 649 Old 04-03-2012, 11:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post

What we can tell you about the algorithm: There is a finite amount of data storage on the R972 where the presets are stored, so Cal Data is never kept. Therefore, if you load a new curve, you'll have to run a new cal to process the new curve.

Hi All:

Good news regarding the bass files that will save you some time and effort. Jeff sent me a PM, recalling that no new cal is required after doing a USB upload of a bass curve. I went back to my release notes (11/29/09) when I first provided the curves to Sherwood.

USB curves change the relative bass level (not correction) in run time, thereby not requiring a re-cal after update. The USB curve then is equally applied to all 3 POSITIONS.

To those who have been running re-cals after the updates, you have my apologies for your extra effort. I will include this and more in a future update of the Trinnov User Notes.

Cheers,

___________
Curt Hoyt
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post #166 of 649 Old 04-03-2012, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post

...

USB curves change the relative bass level (not correction) in run time, thereby not requiring a re-cal after update. The USB curve then is equally applied to all 3 POSITIONS.

...

Thanks, Curt. I thought I was hearing things

I did apply the +6dB curve a couple of days ago and thought it filled out the bass a bit more at lower volume levels. But since I hadn't recalibrated, I chalked it to my imagination, influenced by the knowledge that I loaded the new curve.

In my case, the effect of the +6dB curve is more subtle and the bass is noticeably better controlled than simply increasing the volume on the sub itself.

As an aside, Trinnov does a much better job of controlling the bass in my room than Velodyne's built-in room correction was able to do.
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post #167 of 649 Old 04-05-2012, 03:56 PM
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First, thank you Curt for helping us with the R-972 and its Trinnov Optimizer. Your insight and support in this forum was the final push to convince me to purchase a R-972. I eagerly await its arrival (hopefully tomorrow!).

I'm setting up a 5.1 system. While reading the User Manual pdf, I discovered I could bi-amp my bi-wireable front mains using the extra SURROUND BACK/MULTI channels. Before I buy another set of speaker cables, will bi-amping my front mains offer any benefits with the Trinnov Optimizer?

Tony
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post #168 of 649 Old 04-05-2012, 04:38 PM
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Bi-wiring benefits are illusory, and why not take advantage of Trinnov's unique capabilities by adding a pair of satellite speakers?

Noah
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post #169 of 649 Old 04-05-2012, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Bi-wiring benefits are illusory

Not necessarily Noah. I noticed some people have posted having some problems with output power. If his mains require more power, there would be a benefit in having 4 "amps" powering them as opposed to 2.

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post #170 of 649 Old 04-05-2012, 08:46 PM
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The output power will not increase by adding more load to the amps, it could even shut it down quicker than just using 5 channels.But you could try it and let us know.

That's not to say biwire/biamp has no benifit, add a big amp and biamp/biwire may help, but it would help without biwire/biamp also.

On another note, Sherwood sent me an email saying they are working on new bass curves, should be available in a few weeks, then posted on their site.
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post #171 of 649 Old 04-05-2012, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post

Not necessarily Noah. I noticed some people have posted having some problems with output power. If his mains require more power, there would be a benefit in having 4 "amps" powering them as opposed to 2.

Except that the power is limited by the power supply that feeds all of the amps.

Or more likely, the current limiting circuitry that sounds like it's a bit overzealous.

Noah
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post #172 of 649 Old 04-05-2012, 11:19 PM
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I now realize I buried the primary question. Can the Trinnov Optimizer function with the R-972's BI-AMP feature engaged? (It seems like a waste to let 2 amplifiers sit unused.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Bi-wiring benefits are illusory, and why not take advantage of Trinnov's unique capabilities by adding a pair of satellite speakers?

More speakers aren't really an option. But, the Trinnov Optimizer with extra speakers sounds interesting (no pun intended).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post

Not necessarily Noah. I noticed some people have posted having some problems with output power. If his mains require more power, there would be a benefit in having 4 "amps" powering them as opposed to 2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmo C View Post

The output power will not increase by adding more load to the amps, it could even shut it down quicker than just using 5 channels.But you could try it and let us know.

That's not to say biwire/biamp has no benifit, add a big amp and biamp/biwire may help, but it would help without biwire/biamp also.

If I correctly understand how the Trinnov Optimizer works, it first sets all the channel levels as equally as it can. So, if I bi-amp and give my front mains more "power" will the Optimizer just level the the extra amplifiers away? Or, will the added "power" give the system, as a whole, more headroom and less distortion? (My room isn't large. I don't think I will have to worry about about output/volume issues.)

I would be happy to share my results with any experiments I try. However, before I buy more speaker cables, I want to make sure real improvements are possible.
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post #173 of 649 Old 04-05-2012, 11:45 PM
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If Noah is correct, and most likely he is, then trying to tap more power from other channels by bi-wiring should not help increase power output because of the current limiting circuitry in the PS

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence, than it does knowledge. Charles Darwin
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post #174 of 649 Old 04-06-2012, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ograma View Post

So, if I bi-amp and give my front mains more "power" will the Optimizer just level the the extra amplifiers away? Or, will the added "power" give the system, as a whole, more headroom and less distortion?

Since all the power is coming from the same place, you're really just bi-wiring; I wouldn't bother.

Noah
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post #175 of 649 Old 04-07-2012, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
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At the beginning of this thread I made the promise to cover topics relative to the Trinnov in the R972. The following is a post to a $20k thread regarding spatiality. As I know you may be interested in undestanding the concepts behind what you are hearing, I'm repeating the post for you here. Cheers, Curt
--------------

The following is a discussion regarding the benefits of loudspeaker correction with respect to spatiality- where it helps and where a different kind of correction is needed.

Spatial Detail

The highest spatial detail comes from a point source- like one loudspeaker. The amount of reproduced spatial resolution will be how big the image appears. Often we see speakers placed away from walls- that would cause early reflections and reduce spatial detail. Most spatial detail comes between pairs of loudspeakers, and again, many are placed away from walls to reduce reflections. Here we have the added problem of needing the speakers to be matched- to each other and the room in order to have utmost spatial detail. If the speakers don't sound the same at the listening position(s) (in both amplitude and time), then there is no hope to have robust spatial detail.

Enter loudspeaker correction. The best improves spatial detail between the speakers. To my way of thinking, this benefit is bigger than the target listening curve. I'd easily give up my favorite curve to have better spatial resolution, because it has every thing to do with seeing into the performance, revealing subtle details. Some recordings have layers of spatial detail that can easily be lost without the right balance of speaker, room, and correction. For stereo reproduction, this may be all you need, but for surround, there is more to the puzzle then speakers, room, and EQ correction.

Angular Resolution

So we have our spatial detail between two speakers. Now make it surround-with any number of speakers. You have a completely different spatial problem, even if we assume you have the spatial detail problem (outlined above) solved. That problem is what I'll call Spatial Angular Resolution. Will images appear and move where they should? Will you hear only the images, with the speakers seemingly disappearing? You could achieve this, for one dedicated playback format, only if you have exact placement of your speakers to the format and spatial detail correction outlined above. Then, as soon as you change formats (there are several - movie, ITU misic, etc), you'll need to change everything: move the speakers to positions required for the new format, re-calibrate for the new positions otherwise you will have lost your spatial angular resolution. Maybe you're thinking, Ah that won't be so bad, I can live with that!. You can, but here's what you are missing, and it's easy to tell: you'll be listening to loudspeakers, not images. Why?

Angular Resolution is very important to Spatial Resolution because you are listening in what we call an Acoustic Field. It's 3 dimensional. In the studio, just as there are layers of sounds created by the harmonic textures of instruments and voices, there are also often spatial layers of sounds created by more then one loudspeaker that form together in the acoustic field and appear to come from an intended direction. The loudspeakers are spatially coherent, supporting the 3d acoustic field. If everything is right, then you hear the images originate in the field from the intended directions. If it's not right (the loudspeaker/room placement is off), the waves from the loudspeakers will not be coherent and won't properly combine in the acoustic field. The result is that you just hear sounds from speakers and the imaging is lost (or incorrect).

Listening

What to listen for? Those who have heard Trinnov Spatial Correction (separate from room correction) understand the difference, but what if you haven't? Maybe here's one way to describe it, and those of you who have heard Trinnov Spatial Correction can respond. I'm going to use a rough example to get the point across. Here goes.

First consider a stereo recording you've heard that has one singer singing a duet with themselves, their voice recorded separately to each channel. The harmony is excellent, so listening on average stereo, it appears as one voice, but clouded somewhat and lacking detail. As you improve Spatial Detail through a better playback system, you now hear the two voices distinctly.

Second, let's consider a stereo recording with one voice. If the system lacks Spatial Detail, then the voice can appear cloudy, possibly swishy, and as though there are two voices- a duet- even though it is just a single voice. You are hearing both loudspeakers, rather then the single voice. This is an example of what to listen for: do you hear loudspeakers or images? In stereo, spatial detail comes from matching speakers and room. In surround, detail comes from this and speaker placement. If placement is not exact, one can use Trinnov spatial correction, called Spatial Remapping. The result is seamless imaging. This is at the heart of what Trinnov Spatial Correction provides as a benefit, and it should never be confused with room correction alone.

Cheers-

___________
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post #176 of 649 Old 04-09-2012, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Since all the power is coming from the same place, you're really just bi-wiring; I wouldn't bother.

Thanks for the advice, Noah.

I'm having issues with the Trinnov Optimizer. More cables and amplifiers would have just made everything more complicated. I want to try some more variations before I share my experiences with the forum.

On a different note... Curt, could you please add a couple things to your R972 Trinnov Optimizer Application Notes?
1) The angles for the rear speakers in the Trinnov Remapping -- 5.1 and 7.1 for the music and movie settings.

2) The user manual is vague in its A.Phile 2 and Natural descriptions. Could you include a more precise description? Where does the low frequency adjustment start for A.Phile 2? What does modest and slight cut mean for Natural? Even better would be graphs.

Some of this information I can find elsewhere, but some of it I can't. Nevertheless, it would be great to have it all in one simple place. Thanks again for the R972 Trinnov Optimizer Application Notes. They have been helpful.
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post #177 of 649 Old 04-09-2012, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ograma View Post

Where does the low frequency adjustment start for A.Phile 2? What does modest and slight cut mean for Natural? Even better would be graphs.

Someone in either this or the other 972 thread posted some.

Noah
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post #178 of 649 Old 04-09-2012, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan1 View Post

The "Height" speakers blend perfectly, too

How do you connect height speakers to the 972?

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post #179 of 649 Old 04-10-2012, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan1 View Post
The "Height" speakers blend perfectly, too

Quote:
Originally Posted by nowknown View Post

How do you connect height speakers to the 972?

I meant to ask about that too.

With 3D remapping Trinnov tries to locate the virtual speakers in a single plane, so if the mix of physical speaker heights allows it to do so, getting height effects from the height speakers would/might require 2D remapping to be used.

Right, Curt?

Noah
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post #180 of 649 Old 04-10-2012, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Someone in either this or the other 972 thread posted some.

Ken posted them, I think in both threads:


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