R972 Trinnov User Notes - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 649 Old 04-10-2012, 03:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Height

For height channels- your choice: output channels that would have been sides, backs, or center. You'll need to always have remapping on with surround sources to execute this. Try both 2d/3d as it will give you some control over the results, which will vary based on all speaker locations (their combined locations are taken into account).

Back Angles

I'll add a table to the notes. 5.1 ITU = 110 (+/- deg), 5.1 cinema = 135, 6.1 cinema = 135 & 180. 7.1 cinema = 110, 150. ITU/music back angle is most critical of the bunch, as a specific speaker location is used in all ITU mixes. Cinema is not as critical, as it's expected there may be multiple surrounds.

Curves
I'll add some detail on curves to the User Notes, probably next week.

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post #182 of 649 Old 04-10-2012, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nowknown View Post

How do you connect height speakers to the 972?

See Curt's post above and Curt's Notes for a more detailed explanation, but in my case I hooked up the Heights to the Surround Back outputs of the R-972 and ran Trinnov Optimizer.

I have a Center below the TV, Fronts a bit wider and lower than the TV and Heights wider yet and almost at ceiling level.

What Trinnov's 3D setting does is quite remarkable: the dialog appears to come from the TV screen, with other sounds seemingly coming from various points around the whole frontal area.

The precise positions of the individual speakers themselves are not really identifiable -- it's more of an enveloping field.

After some experimenting, I have settled to using the Music setting, rather than the Cinema one -- it just gives an extra sense of airiness, at least in my room, which I like.

I also find using Heights in this way to be significantly more beneficial than using Surround Backs.
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post #183 of 649 Old 04-10-2012, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan1 View Post

See Curt's post above and Curt's Notes for a more detailed explanation, but in my case I hooked up the Heights to the Surround Back outputs of the R-972 and ran Trinnov Optimizer.

I have a Center below the TV, Fronts a bit wider and lower than the TV and Heights wider yet and almost at ceiling level.

What Trinnov's 3D setting does is quite remarkable: the dialog appears to come from the TV screen, with other sounds seemingly coming from various points around the whole frontal area.

The precise positions of the individual speakers themselves are not really identifiable -- it's more of an enveloping field.

After some experimenting, I have settled to using the Music setting, rather than the Cinema one -- it just gives an extra sense of airiness, at least in my room, which I like.

I also find using Heights in this way to be significantly more beneficial than using Surround Backs.

Thanks a lot! Can't wait to try this! I thought I was gonna have to lose my heights with 972.

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post #184 of 649 Old 04-10-2012, 10:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nowknown View Post

I thought I was gonna have to lose my heights with 972.

Keep in mind that folks in this thread are using height speakers differently from how they are used on all other receivers, where information is extracted (Dolby PLIIz) or generated (Audyssey DSX) with the intent of being played back from speakers placed high up. The heights in the case of Trinnov remapping are used to create phantom imaging slightly above your LCR speakers in order to raise the soundstage to appear closer to ear level. That's very different from the height effect from PLIIz or DSX.

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post #185 of 649 Old 04-10-2012, 11:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Keep in mind that folks in this thread are using height speakers differently from how they are used on all other receivers, where information is extracted (Dolby PLIIz) or generated (Audyssey DSX) with the intent of being played back from speakers placed high up. The heights in the case of Trinnov remapping are used to create phantom imaging slightly above your LCR speakers in order to raise the soundstage to appear closer to ear level. That's very different from the height effect from PLIIz or DSX.

This is, true, as far as I know. But while the dialog does appear to come from wherever the "center" was during calibration (in my case the middle of the screen), other sounds appear to come from all over, including from higher up.

So, at least in my opinion, the end result is a much fuller and more seamless sound stage, both horizontally and vertically, than I was ever able to achieve with Audyssey DSX or Dolby PLIIz.

Of course, I may well be hearing things. Curt can probably explain how Trinnov Surround distributes sound to the Heights.
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post #186 of 649 Old 04-11-2012, 12:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan1 View Post

So, at least in my opinion, the end result is a much fuller and more seamless sound stage, both horizontally and vertically, than I was ever able to achieve with Audyssey DSX or Dolby PLIIz.

Not surprising, since neither DSX nor PLIIz are trying to raise the soundstage. Instead, they're both trying to create height imaging that is intended to appear distinctly above the front soundstage.

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post #187 of 649 Old 04-11-2012, 03:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi All:

This is redundant, but it's important to keep you in the loop. There is a group thread on the $10-15k Trinnov/TEQ: "Datasat RS20i BETA test and comparison with ADA Rhapsody/Trinnov TEQ-12!!!!" They have the same questions you guys do... as it is as a group, they are speculating and you are using.... so it's helpful sometimes to share experiences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

How easy is it to create height channels?...

I know doing the width channels is easy, how can you create height channels with the ada or the trinov pro piece?

Peter and I have been discussing his project off-line. The answer to the question is not obvious, as there are several aspects that are operating in concert when we consider "height channels." Therefore I'm going to provide some insight and some AVS quotes from a Trinnov user who has done all three height possibilities.

At Trinnov we are not after fabricating something that is not in the mix. Rather, we are after spatial accuracy inherent in every mix. We can speculate that the use of height and width in the fixed speaker positions products are there to give a further sense of envelopment, to make the speakers disappear, and render more life like sound. This is not an constraint with Trinnov Remapping, so the approach to height is different: height speakers in Trinnov contribute to building the original acoustic field. Example (thanks Ryan1 and sdurani, R972 Trinnov User Notes thread)....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan1 View Post

...in my case I hooked up the Heights to the Surround Back outputs of the R-972 and ran Trinnov Optimizer.

I have a Center below the TV, Fronts a bit wider and lower than the TV and Heights wider yet and almost at ceiling level.

What Trinnov's 3D setting does is quite remarkable: the dialog appears to come from the TV screen, with other sounds seemingly coming from various points around the whole frontal area.

The precise positions of the individual speakers themselves are not really identifiable -- it's more of an enveloping field.

After some experimenting, I have settled to using the Music setting, rather than the Cinema one -- it just gives an extra sense of airiness, at least in my room, which I like.

I also find using Heights in this way to be significantly more beneficial than using Surround Backs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Keep in mind that folks in this thread are using height speakers differently from how they are used on all other receivers, where information is extracted (Dolby PLIIz) or generated (Audyssey DSX) with the intent of being played back from speakers placed high up. The heights in the case of Trinnov remapping are used to create phantom imaging slightly above your LCR speakers in order to raise the soundstage to appear closer to ear level. That's very different from the height effect from PLIIz or DSX.

This makes sense, but it does go beyond this. A characteristic of Trinnov Remapping is to give a sense of width and height space that extends to the borders of the speakers, while the image remains in a focused. It is one of the reasons I've encouraged the use of height in the R972 Trinnov User Guide. I've not used the other systems, so can't comment on the relative merits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan1 View Post

This is, true, as far as I know. But while the dialog does appear to come from wherever the "center" was during calibration (in my case the middle of the screen), other sounds appear to come from all over, including from higher up.

So, at least in my opinion, the end result is a much fuller and more seamless sound stage, both horizontally and vertically, than I was ever able to achieve with Audyssey DSX or Dolby PLIIz.

Of course, I may well be hearing things. Curt can probably explain how Trinnov Surround distributes sound to the Heights.

Perhaps I'll be able to go into more details later. For now, I hope the experiences of Trinnov users give you some insight to the possibilities.

Cheers,

___________
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post #188 of 649 Old 04-11-2012, 04:49 PM
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Curt and everyone else,

Thank you for this thread!

I just demo-ed a Bluray of Resident Evil Afterlife (don't worry - no Oscar nominees were harmed in the making of this film) without Tinnov set up (yet) and the 972 blew away my former Denon 3311ci.

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post #189 of 649 Old 04-11-2012, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nowknown View Post

...the 972 blew away my former Denon 3311ci.

Yes, it's easy to overlook that the 972 beats the competition on SQ w/o Trinnov.

Noah
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post #190 of 649 Old 04-12-2012, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Ken posted them, I think in both threads:


Thanks sdurani. I saw these. They are definitely interesting. The problem:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RUR View Post

These were measured in a friend's 2.1 channel system - Martin Logan Prodigy mains (Big! dipole line source) + Velo DD-15 sub - measuring left channel only + sub. Although the room has been reasonably well-treated with various ASC and RealTraps products, there's no avoiding room response and others' results will certainly vary.

I would like to see the raw correction curves, without room and speaker interactions.

Additionally, I forgot to request the Cinema EQ curve, earlier. Could this be included, too?
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post #191 of 649 Old 04-12-2012, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ograma View Post

I would like to see the raw correction curves, without room and speaker interactions.

Additionally, I forgot to request the Cinema EQ curve, earlier. Could this be included, too?

Here's the effect of CinEQ on the 0dB flat curve:



This is typical i.e. rolloff starting ~5kHz and down ~5dB @ 20kHz.
The actual target curves would need to come from Sherwood, or perhaps Curt.
LL
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post #192 of 649 Old 04-14-2012, 10:18 AM
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I will be adding an external amp as my low ohm speakers and room size appear to be providing somewhat of a challenge for the internal amps.

Once I add the external amps...should I need to run the Trinnov set-up again? I wouldn't think so, but just checking.

Thanks,
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post #193 of 649 Old 04-14-2012, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RTPBob View Post

I will be adding an external amp as my low ohm speakers and room size appear to be providing somewhat of a challenge for the internal amps.

Once I add the external amps...should I need to run the Trinnov set-up again? I wouldn't think so, but just checking.

Yes...you should.

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post #194 of 649 Old 04-14-2012, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RTPBob View Post

Once I add the external amps...should I need to run the Trinnov set-up again? I wouldn't think so, but just checking.

If the amp doesn't have level controls you'll need to to get the levels matched, unless the gains happen to be the same.

Noah
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post #195 of 649 Old 04-14-2012, 03:56 PM
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Hi guys, will be joining the thread since I just pulled the trigger on one of these! Long time owner of the 965. Looks like I have alot of reading to do!

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post #196 of 649 Old 04-16-2012, 08:44 AM
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Did some calibration last night and got 90 degrees horizontal sub ? What does that mean?
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post #197 of 649 Old 04-16-2012, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stang323 View Post

Did some calibration last night and got 90 degrees horizontal sub ? What does that mean?

Nothing. The wave lengths are too long to get placement data from a subwoofer. Trinnov uses a frequency around 5 kHz to find the location. Can't get that from your sub.

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Ive been reading up on trying to get 0 degrees as center and tried everything! Measurements, moving the mic and all and everything still shows up around +8 degrees ? I set my mic right in front of center and gave me the same thing!
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Get a laser pointer so you have a reference point to start from.

Rotate the mike and take note of how far the spot moves, and how many deg Trinnov tells you it is.

Or you can even can use trigonometry, using how far the spot moves and the distance to where it hits.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Get a laser pointer so you have a reference point to start from.

Rotate the mike and take note of how far the spot moves, and how many deg Trinnov tells you it is.

Or you can even can use trigonometry, using how far the spot moves and the distance to where it hits.

Thanks, well it turns out that trinnov doesnt like rear ported speakers, plugged them in and took care of the problem
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post #201 of 649 Old 04-16-2012, 09:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stang323 View Post

Ive been reading up on trying to get 0 degrees as center and tried everything! Measurements, moving the mic and all and everything still shows up around +8 degrees ? I set my mic right in front of center and gave me the same thing!

Quote:
Thanks, well it turns out that trinnov doesnt like rear ported speakers, plugged them in and took care of the problem

Are you are reporting that "plugging the rear port" affected the reported angles, or...?

Cheers,

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Quote:
Originally Posted by stang323 View Post

Thanks, well it turns out that trinnov doesnt like rear ported speakers, plugged them in and took care of the problem

No issues with my rear ported speakers.

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post #203 of 649 Old 04-17-2012, 12:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post


Are you are reporting that "plugging the rear port" affected the reported angles, or...?

Cheers,

Yes i think, one of the speaker is in a cabinet and getting alot of resinance, I took out the speaker and recalibrate and it was dead on 0 degrees center, i then plugged it and put it in the cabinet and got 0 again.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stang323 View Post

Yes i think, one of the speaker is in a cabinet and getting alot of resinance, I took out the speaker and recalibrate and it was dead on 0 degrees center, i then plugged it and put it in the cabinet and got 0 again.

So it seems it was the cabinet resonance throwing off the angle measurement, not the port itself.

How does the system sound now with a proper calculation?

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post #205 of 649 Old 04-17-2012, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stang323 View Post

Yes i think, one of the speaker is in a cabinet and getting alot of resinance, I took out the speaker and recalibrate and it was dead on 0 degrees center, i then plugged it and put it in the cabinet and got 0 again.

I wouldn't make any conclusions about successive measurements based on a variable you think changed.

Results can differ without apparently changing anything.

Roger Dressler explained how that could be so for RC; I tried to find the post but couldn't.

Curt, I wonder if variations inaudible background noise could be a factor; while S/N may be ample for the initial burst, as it decays so does the S/N.

Noah
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post #206 of 649 Old 04-17-2012, 01:18 PM
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I did calibration about 6 times moving the mic and compensating for off angles without plugs inside cabinet, it sounded okay but image was not centered on the screen, i plugged the port and walla, got it on the first try 0 degrees center, left is about 29 and right about 32, it sounds so full and centered now,
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post #207 of 649 Old 04-17-2012, 01:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereojeff View Post

Nothing. The wave lengths are too long to get placement data from a subwoofer. Trinnov uses a frequency around 5 kHz to location. Can't get that from your sub.

Jeff

Same thing applies here- as Jeff stated earlier- Trinnov locates direction from first impulse at higher frequencies, and is not confused by reflections.

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post #208 of 649 Old 04-17-2012, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post


Same thing applies here- as Jeff stated earlier- Trinnov locates direction from first impulse at higher frequencies, and is not confused by reflections.

Can the cabinet make reflections on high freq?
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post #209 of 649 Old 04-21-2012, 07:55 PM
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Great thread, I would like to add a bit about my experience with Trinnov on the R-972. I originally purchased the R-972 with the intent to use it in our family room. However, to test the unit I installed it in a small sitting room that already had a 5.1 system. Since there was no real way to add more side/rear speakers to make a standard 7.1 system (due to room size) I added 2 speakers in the front up high.

My experience:
-I was blown away by the "wall of sound" effect with 3D remapping - the dialog and front effects seemed to float and I could not locate the speakers.
-Speech was understandable even at very low volumes which impressed my as I often have issues understanding speech with many surround systems at low volumes. (I am used to doing a lot of fiddling with the center channel and was super impressed at this "auto set up" experience.
-I have never liked the results for most auto setup systems but in my room the Trinnov seemed to nail setup.
-Overall, i find the 3d setting yields a very smooth and pleasing sound.

- Unfortunately, the R-972 has way too many idiosyncrasies (and that is being charitable) to work in our family room so I have (happily) left it in our sitting room. The sitting room is now my favorite room to watch movies.
- I can only imagine how well the "full" Trinnov experience works once the ability to tweak settings is added.

I wrote this post to thank Trinnov for a great product - and - express my hopes that in the near future Trinnov can find another AV Receiver partner who is able to release a more stable product for those of us who are unable to afford the "full" Trinnov experience.
Our family room is waiting...
:-)
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post #210 of 649 Old 04-23-2012, 01:41 PM
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still doing research and trying different things... I will report back later.

Somewhere in here, I tried at least a dozen different subwoofer phase settings in an effort to make Trinnov know it was closer. The distance stayed about the same except a few settings pushed it farther -- one out another half meter. One of my earliest runs had the subwoofer's level higher, but still about the same distance.
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