R972 Trinnov User Notes - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 649 Old 03-03-2012, 10:58 AM - Thread Starter
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For anyone who has experienced Trinnov, we are learning a new way of experiencing sound, and with that comes new ways of setting up our listening environment and system for maximum enjoyment. The old rules for ideal sound no longer apply. Where we once would have been making grave compromises when not using an "ideal" configuration, we are now free to move beyond the previous limitations, sometimes with no compromise relative to the ideal. With a little bit of effort, we can have the room layout that suits both our living style and our desire for great sound- including fantastic imaging.

The purpose of this thread is to discuss using Trinnov in the R972 including:
  • What Trinnov does: 3D remapping of image, room/spkr EQ- exploring the possibilities
  • Getting to results we desire_
  • Calibration with 3D probe
  • Extending Cal mic cable
  • Identifying best combination of Speaker and listening positions
  • Subwoofer tuning, multiple subwoofers
  • Target Curves
  • Multiple listening rooms
  • Stereo 2.0, 2.1
  • Surround formats > to room
  • Height, Wide, Side
  • Digital and Analog- special cases
  • Outside the box, making it a reality


I hope you find this thread interesting and useful.

Cheers,

___________
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post #2 of 649 Old 03-03-2012, 11:12 AM
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Looking forward to it.

Many here who understand the significance or too correction are in for a treat.

Thanks!


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There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #3 of 649 Old 03-03-2012, 11:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks!

For those new to the R972, you'll find a set of Trinnov User Application Notes here:

http://www.cahoyt.com/Trinnov/R972Trinnov.pdf

Good reading for tips on configuring and setting up a Trinnov room.

Cheers,

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post #4 of 649 Old 03-03-2012, 01:31 PM
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Hi Curt! I am having a hard time getting the link above to work. Any thoughts? I am running Safari on a Macbook. Thanks!
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post #5 of 649 Old 03-03-2012, 01:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Others have reported link doesn't work with Safari, they get unrecognizable characters. Try another browser. It's an Adobe Acrobat pdf. Success with Chrome, Firefox, IE...

Cheers

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post #6 of 649 Old 03-03-2012, 01:41 PM
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In Safari, click on the link, then right click anywhere in the displayed .pdf file and select "open with Acrobat." The file should then display correctly...at least it did on my Mac.
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post #7 of 649 Old 03-03-2012, 01:52 PM - Thread Starter
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If some of you can't download the notes, send me an email to curt over at trinnov.com and I'll email them to you.

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post #8 of 649 Old 03-03-2012, 02:15 PM
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Got it with Chrome! Thanks!

Also was interested in extending the mic cable. I found these:

http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2

http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2

This cable talks about "shielded twist pair". Is this a better cable than above for this application?

http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2

I want make sure I have the right stuff before ordering. Thanks!
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post #9 of 649 Old 03-03-2012, 04:12 PM - Thread Starter
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I've used cat-6 and a shielded connector. Unshielded can work, if kept away from strong electrical fields.

We've measured the loss with the ADA TEQ, which uses a similar mic setup, and it was about 1 dB above 10k at total length of 75ft. You should be Ok if you keep the total length under 50 ft.

Don't leave mic plugged in when playing audio.

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post #10 of 649 Old 03-03-2012, 10:37 PM
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How long is the included mic cable?

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post #11 of 649 Old 03-04-2012, 08:08 AM
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I received my new R-972 this past Thursday, replacing my Marantz SR 7300. I have Def Tech BP 2002s in the front; 2002 c/l/r for the center, and Def Tech BP8s in the rear.

My initial attempts at calibration failed. Trinnov failed to recognize my rt front, and the lft front was missing the H & V angles. Tried several methods to correct (after verifying the rt front speaker was functional). Swapped lft for rt speakers. I did manage to get a rt front distance, finally, by moving the cal mic forward a couple feet, but still no angle readings. I tried toeing in the rt front kinda severely (30 degrees) and that finally got me a good set of figures. I'm eventually going to tweak back the rt front until I get a minimum angle that gives me a good calibration. Not sure if all this hassle was the fault of my room and furnishings or the speaker's bi-polar design...or if some sort of twilight zone exists in the corner of my room. Anyway, if anyone else encounters a similar problem, that is what I did to fix it.

How does it sound? Marvelous! I can truly say that the soundstage blends so well that this is the first time I can say the speakers truly seem to disappear.

Jim
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post #12 of 649 Old 03-04-2012, 09:02 PM
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First, thanks to Curt for taking the time to prepare the Trinnov User Notes. They've been invaluable in setting up my 7.1 + Stereo rooms.

Second, I have a sub question: When I ran the 7.1 calibration, the sub ran through about 7 or 8 bursts before it was registered. The distance measurement was good, but I got zero degrees on both both the vertical and horizontal measurements. Is this something I should worry about? BTW, the sub has built-in auto-EQ, which I had run and set earlier.
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post #13 of 649 Old 03-05-2012, 07:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Glad you are getting a lot out of the notes.

You'll only get distance for the sub- it's time and level aligned with the other speakers. It's not used for imaging, so direction is not required.

Per the notes- the auto xover setting can be "pushed" up or down with where the sub low pass is set. If you want a BM xover around 80Hz, the low pass should be set around 160. This is because the region of the xover should be flat (not have rolloff). I'm guessing you have the low pass filter on. Try raising the frequency to max. Also try without your sub's active correction. It's very possible our correction is better. Trust your ears.

If you had 8 tries, this alsoi could be because the level may be a bit low (in part affected by the low pass filter). Try this: start a cal. When it comes to the sub, if you get two sets of noise, turn it up a pinch. If you get another two sets of noise, repeat. Do this until you get the sub in one set of bursts. Ideally, you can get it where the level somewhat matches the sats.

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post #14 of 649 Old 03-05-2012, 07:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjaymz View Post

...I have Def Tech BP 2002s in the front; 2002 c/l/r for the center, and Def Tech BP8s in the rear.

How does it sound? Marvelous! I can truly say that the soundstage blends so well that this is the first time I can say the speakers truly seem to disappear.

Jim

Good going. You may want to leave well enough alone, but in time you may want to experiment with more options. With the Def Tech BP 2002s, (has built in powered subs) you have an opportunity to setup your system two ways:

1. Use the subs in the BP2002s as subwoofers (connect both the sub out). Alone or combined with a sub, you may smooth out room modes. I'd say this choice is probably best over a wide listening area.

2. Use the subs in the BP2002s as part of a full range L/R ( connect to respective L/R pre out). Trinnov corrects full range (see user notes). This choice may work for stereo, depending on room modes for spkr locations.

In both cases, the trick is to get the sub levels correct. You could use a Radio Shack meter for this. In any case, as you've got a GOOD cal, do any experimenting using another position.

Lets say you like (1) for movies and (2) for stereo music. YOu could actually have both choices, one for movies, the other for stereo (you would need trigger based switching of pre outs)

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post #15 of 649 Old 03-05-2012, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post

Good going. You may want to leave well enough alone, but in time you may want to experiment with more options. With the Def Tech BP 2002s, (has built in powered subs) you have an opportunity to setup your system two ways:

1. Use the subs in the BP2002s as subwoofers (connect both the sub out). Alone or combined with a sub, you may smooth out room modes. I'd say this choice is probably best over a wide listening area.

2. Use the subs in the BP2002s as part of a full range L/R ( connect to respective L/R pre out). Trinnov corrects full range (see user notes). This choice may work for stereo, depending on room modes for spkr locations.

In both cases, the trick is to get the sub levels correct. You could use a Radio Shack meter for this. In any case, as you've got a GOOD cal, do any experimenting using another position.

Lets say you like (1) for movies and (2) for stereo music. YOu could actually have both choices, one for movies, the other for stereo (you would need trigger based switching of pre outs)

Curt:

Right now, I have the speakers connected to the front mains. Any problems with that setup?

Jim
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post #16 of 649 Old 03-05-2012, 08:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjaymz View Post

Curt:

Right now, I have the speakers connected to the front mains. Any problems with that setup?

Jim

You've got lots of connection possibilities, the key is getting a great level match between the sub and sat part of the speaker thru it's xover region. Using the speaker's speaker level inputs is a great starting point. You may get better bass performance using option (1).

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post #17 of 649 Old 03-05-2012, 12:21 PM
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Curt:

Assume I am dumb and I left the mic plugged for a few days...what happens?

REW...most expensive freeware ever...

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post #18 of 649 Old 03-05-2012, 12:21 PM
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Curt:

Why does Trinnov knock the level down so hard on my speakers - usually -17db (all channels, I have very big speakers)

I know I can just turn my knob a little more - but im curious what conditions would make it measure something flat and adjust the rest.

Ive tried to the sub high gain and very low gain - trinnov fixes it (AWESOME!) but still punished everything with -14 to -17db.

I have tried this direct (all 7.1 only on the 972, no amps) and with a XPA 3 amp.

Let me say that it sounds flawless, im really just curious is all.

I hate posting a question like this cause some tard is going to think its a problem...but oh well.

Trinnov correctly finds my subwoofer at any crossover point from 80 to 20 - KUDOS for being the only room correction to actually find and match a sub without drama (that I have owned in 15 years...)
I forced this by setting the crossover on the sub itself or turning it off...go it pick up at 80,60,40 and 0...COOL.

REW...most expensive freeware ever...

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post #19 of 649 Old 03-05-2012, 01:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twylight View Post

Curt:

Assume I am dumb and I left the mic plugged for a few days...what happens?

The mic is paralleled into the analog inputs. Remove the mic before playing any analog sources.

If you were to have the mic plugged in with a analog source such as CD, you would be picking up the mic along with the CD. Just disconnect it to avoid feedback. Mic remains muted for all digital inputs except during cal.

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post #20 of 649 Old 03-05-2012, 01:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Trinnov will automatically reduce overall gain in order to keep full digital headroom. The gain reduction is computed based on two key factors:

(1) level differences between speakers. Trinnov level matches all speakers and the difference between them must be accounted for in the overall level

(2) correction and Target boost, as much as 6dB

Between the level and EQ corrections, there can be a difference of 16dB or more. If the overall level is not reduced, digital distortion could result.

Things you can do to reduce the drop: Get your sub levels manually close to where it needs to be to match sats (Radio Shack meter it with the built in tones). Avoid having unequal speaker levels, such as speakers with different efficiencies, or speakers way far away that need unusual amounts of boost.

I've been able to get great results on my system here, using the meter first to get the levels near where theny need to be.

Bottom line: as long as you are able to drive the system to the levels you are looking for, and it sounds clean, you'll be OK with the kinds of drops you are seeing. If you clean it up a bit, let us know how it goes- particularly if you find it worth the effort for others.

Cheers,

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post #21 of 649 Old 03-05-2012, 04:00 PM
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I got my R972 about 1.5 weeks ago. Here is my initial report:

For background, all of my equipment is connected to the R972 using HDMI 1.4 rated cables for both audio and video. There is not an analog, optical or coax cable anywhere in my setup. The center of my 40" Samsund 3D TV is eactly at "ear height" when seated, so I used a high end Bogen camera tripod that has bubble levels for both the X and Y axes for the Trinnov microphone and pointed it straight forward toward the center of my screen. I calibrated and set it up for "Flat" eq and 3D mapping, and it sounds GREAT. My setup is not bass-shy in the least, so I wonder why some other R972 owners are wanting bass-boosting curves. Perhaps it's bacause I am using seven identical monopole speakers all around (no dipoles or bipoles) and a 18" bag-end subwoofer that is very flat down to 20hz (down 3db at 8hz). All of my speakers are toed-in; I pointed them so that they were exactly facing the Trinnov microphone during calibration- and left them that way. I even tipped my center front speaker upward slightly so that it is pointing dirrectly at the microphone/listening sweet spot.

Although my speakers are good sounding, only the center front is in the ideal position. The rest are wherever my room and furniture would allow me to place them. The fronts are each about 24 degrees from center. The sides are slightly behind the main listening seat. The left side is about 3 feet farther from the sweet spot than the right side. The rears are about six feet further from the sweet spot than the fronts. My room is wide open in the rear and to the right rear/side to other rooms.

The first thing I listened to was a channel identification test. Wow! I could precidely locate the "virtual" speaker locations exactly where they SHOULD be. In other words, it sounds exactly like speakers were sitting in the perfect spots- which in reality would have been impossible to physically do in my room. I walked around the room and put my ear right up to each speaker during this test, and could actually hear something coming out of all seven speakers even when the test signal was supposed to be activating only one single channel at a time. But when I sat in the sweet spot, the sound from all seven speakers somehow combined or cancelled each other causing the image to be focused like a razor on one very precise point in space for each of the seven test tones. It's clear that Trinnov is using some very clever phase trickery with all seven speaker feed channels working together to create the illusion of seven speakers that are in ideal locations- even when your actual speakers are not. I found that as I moved to the left or right of the ideal listening spot, my ability to precisely locate the spot where the virtual speaker sppeared to be located was diminished. But I had to get almost 6' away from the sweet spot before the illusion was lost altogether. Again, amazing.

Next I put the Tron 3D Blu-Ray on my Oppo BDP-93. What I heard was the most seamless presentation of a 360 degree soundfield I have ever experienced in my home. Boy am I glad I was able to get my hands on this unit for such a good price.

Next I put on a DVD-Audio (5.1) of Deadwing by Porcupine Tree. At first listen, the front soundstage seemed to be a bit narrow, and it seemed like the side images were kind of weak. But then I remembered that Trinnov offers different remapping for Movies and Music. I changed the setting to Music, and suddenly it sounded GREAT! The front image spread out further toward the sides, and the side holes disappeared. I just wish there was something in the signal that would flip the Trinnov mapping between Music and Movie modes automatically when it is appropriate to do so. Changing these settings on the R972 is kind of a pain- requiring navigating through several layers of menus.

All in all, I've got to say that, sound-wise, Trinnov is everything I hoped it would be. In fact, the only somewhat negative thing I have to say about the R972 is with audio being muted for several seconds whenever the audio or video format changes (like when going between the main menu and the movie on a BluRay disc, or changing channels on a HD TiVo). This makes you miss the first few seconds of audio after each such event- not a show-stopper, but nevertheless annoying. It is particularly maddening when starting any of the episodes on the Battlestar Gallactica BD set.

All in all, I am thankful that the commercial failure of the R972 caused it to be discontinued and blown out at such a great clearance price. It has convinced me beyond the shadow of a doubt however that I will be wanting Trinnov or equivalent 3D mapping and room eq in any future AV receiver or pre/pro that I buy- even if I have to pay full price for it. Why are there no other consumer grade Trinnov products available?
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post #22 of 649 Old 03-05-2012, 04:15 PM - Thread Starter
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R972/Trinnov Initial Report-dkaleita

GREAT REPORT!

Trinnov does not use phase- it's one of the reasons you'll get a relatively large sweet area for a given speaker layout.

Switching remapping from cinema to music: if you have an extra video input available- you could map it to the one used for your audio DVDs- and set the preset for music remapping. This would get you around having to use the Quick Menu to switch from cinema to music remapping. Same may be done for other varibles as well. Using a common input, such as HDMI 1, one could have two video presets, one for movies, one for music, with preset varibles found on Input setup pages 1-3.

Let us know how it works out.

Cheers,

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post #23 of 649 Old 03-05-2012, 06:02 PM
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What else is using Trinnov besides the 972?

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #24 of 649 Old 03-05-2012, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

What else is using Trinnov besides the 972?

Here's what I was told...

"The code in the R-972 is identical to Trinnov's professional unit of 3 years ago. Fox paid $15k for their Trinnov boxes (with the same code). They use them in the DVD mix-down room as Trinnov makes that room sound just like the dubbing stage."

And I know ADA uses Trinnov:

http://www.ada.net/products/ht/teq_trinnov.php

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post #25 of 649 Old 03-05-2012, 06:35 PM
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dkaleita

The 972 can remap additional inputs to the same source. You can:

Setup oppo 93 as hdmi 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and CD and the following

hdmi 1: regular
hdmi 2: different parameters, same position (say natural instead of flat)
hdmi 3: use music correction, aphile1 - same position
hdmi 4 : you get the point
on CD 1 you:
setup position 3 disconnect everything but the 2.0 or 2.1 before you run it
run the analog or spdif out of the oppo 93
setup CD 1 as:
position 3, aphile 1, music, use pure direct or whatever its called

ive done this - works like a champ - curt's ideas.

Im redoing my room this week with a new center and a pair of bass traps - ill post my final config which will be some like

bluray1
directv1
boxee1
directtv 1,position 2 (on elliptical machine stuffed in far corner)
bluray 1, position 1, different correction setting testing
CD 1 - analog oppo, position 3, 2.1 only, pure audio engaged

position 1 and 3 will be my primary seat in 7.1 and 2.1 respectively.

I should have it dialed in this weekend and will post about it - ive already done this, but with old center channel.

REW...most expensive freeware ever...

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post #26 of 649 Old 03-05-2012, 07:06 PM
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Great work by everyone in this thread. Thank you for fleshing out these ideas.
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post #27 of 649 Old 03-05-2012, 07:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Here's what I was told...

"The code in the R-972 is identical to Trinnov's professional unit of 3 years ago. Fox paid $15k for their Trinnov boxes (with the same code). They use them in the DVD mix-down room as Trinnov makes that room sound just like the dubbing stage."

And I know ADA uses Trinnov:

http://www.ada.net/products/ht/teq_trinnov.php

Yes, The code in the R-972 is identical to Trinnov's professional unit of 2008, V2.0, with fixed variables, where the pro we've always had extensive flexibility. For the R972, we used the Pro to find the set of parameters ideal for home. Given typical room sizes found in homes, the Pro has often been configured similarly. The computation engine is identical to V2.0 for building the coefficients.

Fox started with V2.0. In January 2001, Fox had me perform an update to V3.0 and acoustical re-tuning of the rooms. We were able to do a fully automated tuning- verified independently by their top guy- without the need for any manual post adjustments- both rooms. What allowed us to do that is our multi-point calibration and graphing capability. This becomes really important for verification. At any time, the performance of the room can be verified using the installed Trinnov. The Optimizer Pro will find any issues in the chain. Cool, fun stuff.

ADA TEQ is based on Trinnov hardware and software, with some handshakes to integrate easily into the ADA line.

___________
Curt Hoyt
3D Audio Consultant

Trinnov Audio
USA

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post #28 of 649 Old 03-05-2012, 07:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twylight View Post

dkaleita

The 972 can remap additional inputs to the same source. You can:

Setup oppo 93 as hdmi 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and CD and the following

hdmi 1: regular
hdmi 2: different parameters, same position (say natural instead of flat)
hdmi 3: use music correction, aphile1 - same position
hdmi 4 : you get the point
on CD 1 you:
setup position 3 disconnect everything but the 2.0 or 2.1 before you run it
run the analog or spdif out of the oppo 93
setup CD 1 as:
position 3, aphile 1, music, use pure direct or whatever its called

ive done this - works like a champ - curt's ideas.
(snip)

Great work! You followed the User Notes- well done. Next step I did was figure out a preset naming scheme that tells in a glance what preset you are in (972 doesn't tell you), source, position and music or cinema. Something like "V1-DVD-P1-M", or "V2-DVD-P2-C." (BTW I use M= music remapping/natural EQ, C = cinema remapping/cinema EQ) Got to use a shorthand, as the name can't be too long. If someone is organized and has a bit of time, a setup sheet (XLS?) for documenting configs and abreviations could be really helpful. Bonus- when you come back to change things a year later, it becomes really easy to do.

___________
Curt Hoyt
3D Audio Consultant

Trinnov Audio
USA

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post #29 of 649 Old 03-06-2012, 03:19 AM
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post #30 of 649 Old 03-06-2012, 11:48 AM
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Hi Curt,

I'm presently considering the R972 and have a couple of questions. Are you aware of any bugs that remain to be resolved? In the "other" thread the importance of microphones was discussed. I have a decent mic that I purchased to calibrate my HT system and it is very likely of better quality than the one included with the Sherwood, but I'm guessing this unit uses a proprietary mic. Is that the case? If yes can a better mic be "macgyvered" to work with this unit? Or is the mic included with this unit sufficient to meet its needs?

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