Pioneer vs onkyo - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 55 Old 03-04-2012, 04:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Dear all,

I own the Onkyo PR SC5508 processor connected to five Marantz MA700 mono block amps powering my 5.2 Jamo D600 THX U2 speakers. I had the opportunity to try the Pioneer SC-LX85 (SC57 in the US) with my setup and i am really surprised of what i heard. The Pioneer really sounds great, much better than the other setup i have, and i was really surprised about all this.

Never thought that i would hear all the detail and the sound just simply is more solid, faster and better bass response also, my twin D650 THX subs, have much more control on them.

my question would be, how come i went for the pre/pro route spending much over double the price of the Pioneer in the process, and I really struggle to match what i heard today with the pioneer receiver? Sometimes i also beleive that i am not even close to matching the Pioneer, maybe i have something wrong in the amps, no match with my speakers or could it be that the onkyo processor is defective? Sound is much more suffocated, and bass is out of control. Please if you can help me. Thanks.
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post #2 of 55 Old 03-04-2012, 05:44 PM
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I can't think of any really good reason. Pio uses MCACC, so that's different. I guess auto setup could have worked better in one case than the other. Stuff like whether speakers are small or large and how the crossovers are set.

Audio is tricky, IMO. Sometimes it's easy to be hyper critical, at least for me. It can be tough to get to the root cuase.

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post #3 of 55 Old 03-04-2012, 06:32 PM
 
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Are you saying that you swapped the Pioneer into your system using it's amplifiers, or that you kept using the Marantz mono blocks? Or that you put it in a second system that you have?
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post #4 of 55 Old 03-05-2012, 02:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

Are you saying that you swapped the Pioneer into your system using it's amplifiers, or that you kept using the Marantz mono blocks? Or that you put it in a second system that you have?

I simply swapped the Pio instead of the Marantz mono blocks together with the Onkyo Processor and i was simply amazed.
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post #5 of 55 Old 03-05-2012, 02:55 AM
 
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So you didn't calibrate? Wow, that is something that you'd get such results. That Pioneer apparently has Pioneer's own design on digital amps. Digital amps are said to have superior bass control but I wonder what else is in Pioneer's secret sauce? To beat an Onkyo/Marantz combination with an AVR is perplexing!
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post #6 of 55 Old 03-05-2012, 04:28 AM
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Either a problem running Audyssey XT32 on the Onkyo 5508 or not calibrated at all as it sounds.
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post #7 of 55 Old 03-05-2012, 05:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gurkey View Post

Either a problem running Audyssey XT32 on the Onkyo 5508 or not calibrated at all as it sounds.

Can it be because the Marantz MA700 are quite old now and these amps (which served me very well and i consider them as very good) do not have the dynamic range of today's amps? I mean the Pio is a D Class amp, can it be because of that?
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post #8 of 55 Old 03-05-2012, 05:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

So you didn't calibrate? Wow, that is something that you'd get such results. That Pioneer apparently has Pioneer's own design on digital amps. Digital amps are said to have superior bass control but I wonder what else is in Pioneer's secret sauce? To beat an Onkyo/Marantz combination with an AVR is perplexing!

I did calibrate with MCACC on the Pio, and had the calibration on the Onkyo with Audessey, so i can say that everyting was done as it should be. My room has just been refurbished and i still did not put any treatment behind the fabric panels, but even without treatment, the Pio sounds amazing, when i thought that my setup would simply crush it when it came to sound quality. I know this is perplexing, that is why i am posting at AVS, anyway thanks for all the help as usual.
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post #9 of 55 Old 03-05-2012, 06:43 AM
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You might just like how MCACC handles the sound over Audyssey and since this is not uncommon with some preferring Yamaha's YPAO or Anthem's ARC along with Sherwood offering Trinnov ah the many flavorings of room correction.
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post #10 of 55 Old 03-05-2012, 09:08 AM
 
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The room correction coupled with your preferences might definitely have something to do with your results. Are those Marantz amps 200 watts? How old are they?
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post #11 of 55 Old 03-05-2012, 10:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

The room correction coupled with your preferences might definitely have something to do with your results. Are those Marantz amps 200 watts? How old are they?

Quite old I must admit I have these for over 10 years I am sure. Yes power is 200w RMS 8ohms and 300 at 4 ohms and all are THX.
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post #12 of 55 Old 03-05-2012, 11:05 PM
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No, your ear are not fooling you. The SC 57 is just a remarkable avr. It's separate amps are very capable. It is a Class D3 which means it is ultra quiet and 4 ohm stable. The SC 37 was not 4 ohm stable and was and class D ICE amp. It is also an excellent avr. The mono blocks may need to be reset to factory spec's after 10 years. MCACC is one of the best programs for room correction and may be a key factor.

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post #13 of 55 Old 03-05-2012, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

No, your ear are not fooling you. The SC 57 is just a remarkable avr. It's separate amps are very capable. It is a Class D3 which means it is ultra quiet and 4 ohm stable. The SC 37 was not 4 ohm stable and was and class D ICE amp. It is also an excellent avr. The mono blocks may need to be reset to factory spec's after 10 years. MCACC is one of the best programs for room correction and may be a key factor.

This must be a joke, MCACC is so far behind the times. It doesn't even calibrate the subs at all. There are many MCACC converts switching to XT32.
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post #14 of 55 Old 03-05-2012, 11:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by nismo604 View Post

This must be a joke, MCACC is so far behind the times. It doesn't even calibrate the subs at all. There are many MCACC converts switching to XT32.

To me the MCACC looks much simpler compared to Audessey and does not take long to calculate distance and delays, and i noticed that subwoofers are not properly setup, but the end result is what counts, and this AVR simply is stunning, and that is something from someone who never beleived in integrated amps and always had separates in my setups. Even for HIFI i never used integrated amps. Times are changing i guess and tonight i am hooking up the Onkyo again and do a proper Audessey tune up to check again. Can it be that my amps have passed their best?
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post #15 of 55 Old 03-05-2012, 11:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

No, your ear are not fooling you. The SC 57 is just a remarkable avr. It's separate amps are very capable. It is a Class D3 which means it is ultra quiet and 4 ohm stable. The SC 37 was not 4 ohm stable and was and class D ICE amp. It is also an excellent avr. The mono blocks may need to be reset to factory spec's after 10 years. MCACC is one of the best programs for room correction and may be a key factor.

Must be so as you say because this AVR is really impressive. Its got ample power and very stable to 4 ohm loads, my Jamo D600 are 4 ohms anyway. So your opinion is that the amps need a refurb, or i change to something more modern say a Wyred 4 sound digital amp?
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post #16 of 55 Old 03-06-2012, 05:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

No, your ear are not fooling you. The SC 57 is just a remarkable avr. It's separate amps are very capable. It is a Class D3 which means it is ultra quiet and 4 ohm stable. The SC 37 was not 4 ohm stable and was and class D ICE amp. It is also an excellent avr. The mono blocks may need to be reset to factory spec's after 10 years. MCACC is one of the best programs for room correction and may be a key factor.

ummm... the sc-37 most certainly is 4 ohm stable...

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post #17 of 55 Old 03-07-2012, 12:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Yesterday i switched from the Pio to the Onkyo again, spent many time to re calibrate using Audessey and sat down to listen. Sound seems better, maybe last time the calibration was not done right. Even though, i cannot understand how the subs seem to rumble more even when i adjusted both subs at the 75db that Audessey suggests and both my subwoofers are active Jamo D650. Audessey to my surprise, did not recognize the spreakers as THX and gave me the front L&R as 40Hz crossover setting, the centre at 60Hz and the rears only at 50Hz. Anyway i adjusted those parameters and the distance of one of the subs was way off, but the rest seems fine. It is strange to see all this when i consider that to do the setup with Audessey, i spent around 1 hour playing with the mic and with MCACC it only lasted about 5 minutes and the result was very good.
Can it be that maybe i need to change the Mono blocks to something more modern, say a D class amp to hear the difference? I know for a fact that a good amp will remain good for quite a long time, i know that becasue i have an NAD 208THX amp, and it still sounds great after more than 10 years, and if i had another two of those my problem will sureley be solved. Please any advice guys? Thanks.
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post #18 of 55 Old 03-07-2012, 05:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joebuzz View Post

Yesterday i switched from the Pio to the Onkyo again, spent many time to re calibrate using Audessey and sat down to listen. Sound seems better, maybe last time the calibration was not done right. Even though, i cannot understand how the subs seem to rumble more even when i adjusted both subs at the 75db that Audessey suggests and both my subwoofers are active Jamo D650. Audessey to my surprise, did not recognize the spreakers as THX and gave me the front L&R as 40Hz crossover setting, the centre at 60Hz and the rears only at 50Hz. Anyway i adjusted those parameters and the distance of one of the subs was way off, but the rest seems fine. It is strange to see all this when i consider that to do the setup with Audessey, i spent around 1 hour playing with the mic and with MCACC it only lasted about 5 minutes and the result was very good.
Can it be that maybe i need to change the Mono blocks to something more modern, say a D class amp to hear the difference? I know for a fact that a good amp will remain good for quite a long time, i know that becasue i have an NAD 208THX amp, and it still sounds great after more than 10 years, and if i had another two of those my problem will sureley be solved. Please any advice guys? Thanks.

A member from another site posted this link , I dont
feel your mono blocks are the issue , I myself have a PR-SC5508 along with a XPA-5 200X5 Amp and I have also owned a Pio SC-57 for a short time . I am selling my 5508 and going back to a SC-57 because I had the same results as you , the SC-57 blew away the 5508 . I just thought you would like to know this .Also the 5508 as a Pre Pro gets very hot and the SC-57 as a AVR stays cool .

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post #19 of 55 Old 03-07-2012, 06:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joebuzz View Post

Yesterday i switched from the Pio to the Onkyo again, spent many time to re calibrate using Audessey and sat down to listen. Sound seems better, maybe last time the calibration was not done right. Even though, i cannot understand how the subs seem to rumble more even when i adjusted both subs at the 75db that Audessey suggests and both my subwoofers are active Jamo D650. Audessey to my surprise, did not recognize the spreakers as THX and gave me the front L&R as 40Hz crossover setting, the centre at 60Hz and the rears only at 50Hz. Anyway i adjusted those parameters and the distance of one of the subs was way off, but the rest seems fine. It is strange to see all this when i consider that to do the setup with Audessey, i spent around 1 hour playing with the mic and with MCACC it only lasted about 5 minutes and the result was very good.
Can it be that maybe i need to change the Mono blocks to something more modern, say a D class amp to hear the difference? I know for a fact that a good amp will remain good for quite a long time, i know that becasue i have an NAD 208THX amp, and it still sounds great after more than 10 years, and if i had another two of those my problem will sureley be solved. Please any advice guys? Thanks.

bolded part 1... not surprising, as that "rumble" you were getting was likely a big peak that was knocked down...

bolded part 2... don't change the distance... "distances" are really "delays"...

i find it highly unlikely it's the amps...

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post #20 of 55 Old 03-07-2012, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nismo604 View Post

This must be a joke, MCACC is so far behind the times. It doesn't even calibrate the subs at all. There are many MCACC converts switching to XT32.

If you need sub equalization you could always add an Antimode 8033 but to say its behind yes with the lack of sub equalization and greater control over crossovers but the rest may not hold true as more like the sound than not.
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post #21 of 55 Old 03-07-2012, 09:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by a1usedcomp View Post

A member from another site posted this link , I dont
feel your mono blocks are the issue , I myself have a PR-SC5508 along with a XPA-5 200X5 Amp and I have also owned a Pio SC-57 for a short time . I am selling my 5508 and going back to a SC-57 because I had the same results as you , the SC-57 blew away the 5508 . I just thought you would like to know this .Also the 5508 as a Pre Pro gets very hot and the SC-57 as a AVR stays cool .

Onkyo PR-SC5508
XPA-5
Klipsch RF-7II
Klipsch RC-64II
RS-62II
(2) HSU VTF-15 H
HSU MBM-12 MK2
Samsung 63B550 Plasma
Oppo BDP- 95
Panamax M5400-PM
Harmony 1100 Remote

So you are confirming what i heard and i am not dreaming all this. Seems that the amp, even wtih the power amps on board is more in control. Even my wife did not complain about the sound of the Pio and she said that the Onkyo rattles the apartment like mad, while with the Pio she never complained that the sound is too loud while i am sure that in the room it was loud enough that i was almost becoming deaf!
I feel really bad to hear this, more disappointed when i had the marantz av8003 that i swapped for the Onkyo, and i do remember that processor to be very good indeed.
What about the Emotiva XPA-5? are you happy with this amp, as this week i sent them an email to check how much will it cost me to ship one to Malta. Please tell me what you think. thanks.
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post #22 of 55 Old 03-07-2012, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joebuzz View Post

So you are confirming what i heard and i am not dreaming all this. Seems that the amp, even wtih the power amps on board is more in control. Even my wife did not complain about the sound of the Pio and she said that the Onkyo rattles the apartment like mad, while with the Pio she never complained that the sound is too loud while i am sure that in the room it was loud enough that i was almost becoming deaf!
I feel really bad to hear this, more disappointed when i had the marantz av8003 that i swapped for the Onkyo, and i do remember that processor to be very good indeed.
What about the Emotiva XPA-5? are you happy with this amp, as this week i sent them an email to check how much will it cost me to ship one to Malta. Please tell me what you think. thanks.

Im happy with the XPA-5
but I once I get the SC-57 I will sell the XPA-5 I wont need it , the SC-57 was enough for my speakers

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post #23 of 55 Old 03-08-2012, 12:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Im happy with the XPA-5
but I once I get the SC-57 I will sell the XPA-5 I wont need it , the SC-57 was enough for my speakers

I am sure that the power of the Pioneer is more than enough for an average sized room and my room size is 16ft by 11ft. My only concern is that i still did not add any wall treatments behind the cloth panels i built, and i suspect that when i add the treatments then i need more power, but i have to wait and see. I am going to get some treatments today and hopefully will fit next saturday, will keep you posted.
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post #24 of 55 Old 03-08-2012, 04:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joebuzz View Post

Dear all,

I own the Onkyo PR SC5508 processor connected to five Marantz MA700 mono block amps powering my 5.2 Jamo D600 THX U2 speakers. I had the opportunity to try the Pioneer SC-LX85 (SC57 in the US) with my setup and i am really surprised of what i heard. The Pioneer really sounds great, much better than the other setup i have, and i was really surprised about all this.

Never thought that i would hear all the detail and the sound just simply is more solid, faster and better bass response also, my twin D650 THX subs, have much more control on them.

my question would be, how come i went for the pre/pro route spending much over double the price of the Pioneer in the process, and I really struggle to match what i heard today with the pioneer receiver? Sometimes i also beleive that i am not even close to matching the Pioneer, maybe i have something wrong in the amps, no match with my speakers or could it be that the onkyo processor is defective? Sound is much more suffocated, and bass is out of control. Please if you can help me. Thanks.

Are you by any chance still using the original firmware and/or have you installed the firmware which fixed a major Audyssey XT32 bug in the original firmware for the Onkyo xx08-series?
As of 22 September 2010
• Improves Audyssey MultEQ XT32 processing
http://www.intl.onkyo.com/support/fi...pr-sc5508.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shnapper View Post

Onkyo TX-NR5008

Ok I ran Audyssey XT32 and got BAD results. Kinda bizarre really, the best way I can describe it is... Even when sitting dead center in my listening area it actually sounds hollow and if I'm listening from another room in my house. Kinda freaky really, I immediately went into EQ settings and disabled Audyssey and everything was back to sounding decent.

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Originally Posted by jmalto View Post

Running auto-setup and then engaging Audyssey XT32 with Dynamic EQ=Tin/Echo sound (pick some familiar music or movies and listen for it.) It makes it really easy to hear by putting the receiver into mono mode so only the center channel plays. Turning off Audyssey resulted in crisp, clear, dialog and sound.

I have a full 7.2 AV123 Rocket setup with 2 Danley DTS-10 subwoofers. Every speaker experienced this problem but the center channel was the most noticeable since that is where the dialog comes from. The dynamics of the sound also changed and was a lot softer with Audyssey engaged.

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Originally Posted by gurkey View Post

The German Auerbach Verlag, publisher of several HiFi and MultiMedia magazines, has tested the new 3008 and discovered, that the new Audyssey MultEQ XT32 seem to have a mejor bug in its current implementation, which delivered results leaving the impression of defective speakers. They did repeat the tests in several other locations outside of their labs and concluded finally, that the older version of Adyssey MultEQ XT in the 3007 and 5007 gave excellent results, while the measurements of the new XT32 seem to result in much worse calibration. Turning off Audyssey removed the impression of defective speakers. This is been supported by feedback of several users of the 3008.

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post #25 of 55 Old 03-08-2012, 04:52 AM
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Go by your ears.

You prefer the Pioneer, stick with it. I would.

You can make yourself crazy trying to figure some of this stuff out.

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post #26 of 55 Old 03-09-2012, 10:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Go by your ears.

You prefer the Pioneer, stick with it. I would.

You can make yourself crazy trying to figure some of this stuff out.

I guess you are right as this is not becoming my hobby anymore I feel that now its a burden. Anyway I am testing the Pio back today and hopefully by next week I should have the room treated acoustically and only then I can judge. Thanks for the help guys!
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post #27 of 55 Old 03-09-2012, 10:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickardl View Post

Are you by any chance still using the original firmware and/or have you installed the firmware which fixed a major Audyssey XT32 bug in the original firmware for the Onkyo xx08-series?
As of 22 September 2010
o Improves Audyssey MultEQ XT32 processing
http://www.intl.onkyo.com/support/fi...pr-sc5508.html

I am running the latest firmware but our local onkyo reseller told me yesterday not to setup with audessey. Strange I said but he told me that if I repeated audessey 3 times in a row without changing a thing, it will give 3 results different to each other, makes me think that after all I paid a lot of cash to have XT32 and it is a gimmick anyway. What do you think?
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post #28 of 55 Old 03-09-2012, 10:44 AM
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makes me think that after all I paid a lot of cash to have XT32 and it is a gimmick anyway.

Dude you are really asking for it. How dare you use "gimmick" and XT32 in the Same sentence. You need to be taught an Audyssey lesson.?
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post #29 of 55 Old 03-09-2012, 11:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Dude you are really asking for it. How dare you use "gimmick" and XT32 in the Same sentence. You need to be taught an Audyssey lesson.?

First of all dude I am asking for nothing and if you are a very good teacher then i suggest you to give private lessons. I said what my onkyo supplier told me that if you run audessey 3 times it will give you 3 times different results, if this is not a joke I cannot understand what is. I also confirmed that the Pioneer sounded better to me, and that does not have audessey. And please calm down as no one here is on this forum to give anyone an audessey lesson or any other lesson for all that matters, if you did not like what I said just ignore it and enjoy life. Thanks anyway for your comment.
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post #30 of 55 Old 03-09-2012, 11:24 AM
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First of all dude I am asking for nothing and if you are a very good teacher then i suggest you to give private lessons. I said what my onkyo supplier told me that if you run audessey 3 times it will give you 3 times different results, if this is not a joke I cannot understand what is. I also confirmed that the Pioneer sounded better to me, and that does not have audessey. And please calm down as no one here is on this forum to give anyone an audessey lesson or any other lesson for all that matters, if you did not like what I said just ignore it and enjoy life. Thanks anyway for your comment.

No, no, no, my post is just a poke at the audyssey enthusiast who believe audyssey is the be all end all and it's best for ever HT. I'm using an 1121 and I'm loving it. I agree with you that pioneer sounds great with mcacc. Enjoy your Pio man..... I am
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