Receiver is dead! Did my speakers kill it? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 23 Old 03-06-2012, 05:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi:

I have 5 Athena speakers, they are:

2X front:

Frequency Response: 40 Hz — 20 kHz (±3 dB)
Impedance: 8 Ohms Compatible
Typical Room Sensitivity: 92 dB
Power Handling: 200 Watts

2X back

Frequency Response: 60 Hz — 20 kHz (±3 dB)
Impedance: 8 Ohms Compatible
Typical Room Sensitivity: 90 dB
Power Handling: 125 Watts

1X center

Frequency Response: ?
Impedance: 8 Ohms Compatible
Typical Room Sensitivity: ?
Power Handling: 150 Watts


Yesterday, my one-year old Denon AVR 891 receiver was dead, tech support at Denon told me that because my amplifier is 135w x 7 channels at 6 Ohms and 105w x 7 at 8 Ohms, and because my speakers are 200w-150w-125w, my speakers were overdriving my amplifier, with time, my speakers just killed my amplifier.

my Denon AVR 891 has 135w x 7.1 channels. all channels have following same spec.

105 W + 105 W
(8 ohms, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, THD 0.08%)
135 W + 135 W
(6 ohms, 1 kHz, THD 0.7%)


I thought that amplifier should have lower watt than speakers, and I never used my amplifier at very high volume, 99% time just for TV viewing.

Rarely, I would get this very loud, very short popping sound from my speakers, just one sound, not continues, like popping a champagne cork, just louder and sharper. I thought it was my cable PVR causing it, because it happened most time when I watch TV recording.

Is this true? my speakers just killed my amplifier?

Anyone has the same problem? what should I do? buy new speakers? If I fix the old receiver, I am afraid it will happen again.

Do I need to set up Denon AVR 891 to 8 ohms, I couldn't find where to change it. I thought it was automatic.

If anyone knows why this happened, please reply!

Thank you very much!
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post #2 of 23 Old 03-06-2012, 06:04 PM
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^^^

no...

your speakers didn't kill your amplifier...

if you were running it full bore for long periods of time and clipping the hell out of it, it could die because of that... which given the specs on your speakers (and your stated usage) seems improbable, as you were using less than a watt... and even then, the speakers themselves aren't the issue... speakers don't drive amplifiers, it's the other way around...

and even if you were clipping the hell out of the amp, the speakers likely would have cried uncle first...

iow, tech support at denon is blowing smoke up your posterior...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

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post #3 of 23 Old 03-06-2012, 06:15 PM
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A major reason for AVR failure is heat buildup..
Due to inadequate ventilation and not enough free-air clearance around the AVR's L/R sides and top cover....
Though certain people may challenge this..
The majority of operation guides & quick-start guides state this point but frequently it is overlooked..

An AVR needs at least 3" for the sides and top cover, and some brands recommend even more. Also no component should be placed on the AVR's top. Also many of the wall units and cabinets are designed by furniture guys who have little awareness of this issue....

This point is very pertinent for entry-level AVRs as they do not have any overdesign in the amount of provided heat-sinking area.


Just my $0.02..
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post #4 of 23 Old 03-06-2012, 06:16 PM
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Only way a speaker could damage a receiver, I can think of, is if the speaker had a short in it. The receiver would likely shut down as most are protected from such abuse, but there's a chance of receiver failure.

Has NOTHING to do with speaker rating vs amp rating IMO.

p.s. some would suggest having more amp power than average rated speaker power handling, but that's hardly mandatory.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #5 of 23 Old 03-06-2012, 06:23 PM
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^^^

yea michael, that's the only thing i can think of too, a dead short, and the avr would almost certainly go into protection if that happened...

i can't think of any conceivable scenario that would cause speakers to slowly kill an avr...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

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post #6 of 23 Old 03-06-2012, 06:36 PM
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Hello Waterfallmtl-couple of basic questions:

1-Did you purchase your unit from a Denon authorized dealer?
2-If you did not purchase from Denon authorized dealer, did selling source include a warantee or some sort? Basic or extended warantee?
3-Not insulting your intelligence,but you are sure all AC sources, and connections to receiver are securely in place? Main power switch, next to standby button, has been cycled, and no red light appears around the standby power button,(next to the aforementioned main power button)?

I believe that if you purchased from an authorized dealer, that your Denon basic warantee is still in effect, and your unit should be repaired at Denon's expense. Speaking from experience, proof of purchase, from an authorized Denon dealer, is a MUST, for Denon to honor their warantee.
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post #7 of 23 Old 03-06-2012, 06:55 PM - Thread Starter
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///

Big thanks to everybody!

It's a relief I don't have to replace anything.

To ccotenj: I guess the tech at Denon had to find a reason to justify the failure of their product.

To M Code: my receiver is on top of the stand, there is nothing around it. my room temp is cool, it happened when I tried to turn it on after being off all day, so I don't think it's the heat. and is Denon DVR-891 a entry-level receiver, I spent $700 on it a year ago, I hope it is a middle range one.

To fordf250: yes, I have the warranty and my receiver is being fixed at service center.

To MichaelJHuman and ccotenj: the only thing I can think of is that one of two wire head popped out from center speaker, (the red and black ones), I am not sure if it touched the one still inside speaker. could this be the reason?

It might be just some small capacitor is blown, I will have to wait until they fix it.

Any thoughts on the popping sound?

Thanks again!
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post #8 of 23 Old 03-06-2012, 07:22 PM
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There is no way those Athenas caused your Denon receiver to blow.They're easy to drive speakers. I have a HK AVR 325 that is 7 x 50W and it powered two F1 towers, one C1 center and two B1 or B2 bookshelf speakers very loudly with no problems at all.

Now if you had a short somewhere that's a different story. Were you using bare wire or banana plugs? On the receiver terminals? Speaker terminals?

and like was said above...speakers don't drive amps! Its the other way around.

Glad you're getting your Denon serviced under warranty.

Afro GT
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post #9 of 23 Old 03-06-2012, 07:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post

There is no way those Athenas caused your Denon receiver to blow.They're easy to drive speakers. I have a HK AVR 325 that is 7 x 50W and it powered two F1 towers, one C1 center and two B1 or B2 bookshelf speakers very loudly with no problems at all.

Now if you had a short somewhere that's a different story. Were you using bare wire or banana plugs? On the receiver terminals? Speaker terminals?

and like was said above...speakers don't drive amps! Its the other way around.

Glad you're getting your Denon serviced under warranty.

Thank you for replying.

I am using banana plugs, why they popped out? I don't know, it has happened twice on different speakers a little over one year.

Could you give me some examples about shorting? wires inside speaker? the wire with 2 heads connected to receiver?

what caused the short? I did something or some faulty thing inside speakers?

Thanks!
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post #10 of 23 Old 03-06-2012, 10:44 PM
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Did you get the name of the "tech"? He needs to be reported to his superiors. On the other hand, he was likely reading from a script created by his superiors.
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post #11 of 23 Old 03-07-2012, 11:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbobuick86 View Post

Did you get the name of the "tech"? He needs to be reported to his superiors. On the other hand, he was likely reading from a script created by his superiors.

Well, he said his name at beginning of the phone call, but I don't remember, anyways, I think you are right, people report problems, they have scripts to deal with people. I don't think it's tech's fault, it's the company.

why they lie or give misleading info? the only reason I can think of is that they try to avoid responsibilities. If I want to spend $1000 replace my speakers or receiver, I wouldn't come here to ask questions, I would just take their words and go with it. I guess that is most people would do, not everyone knows a lot about this kind of things.

today, these companies don't make quality products anymore, they just want you to use it for a few years, then it breaks, you will have to buy a new one, the companies make more money this way. they say because costumers want cheaper stuff, but I think they are just greedy. and they want to lower the cost, so they buy parts from all over the world, and they just outsource the parts, then quality control become a huge problem. anyways, I start to think extended warranty maybe a good idea.
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post #12 of 23 Old 03-07-2012, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waterfallmtl View Post

Thank you for replying.

I am using banana plugs, why they popped out? I don't know, it has happened twice on different speakers a little over one year.

Could you give me some examples about shorting? wires inside speaker? the wire with 2 heads connected to receiver?

what caused the short? I did something or some faulty thing inside speakers?

Thanks!

Assuming it was a short (not proven,) it could happen a number of ways. Yes, if a plug popped out of speaker output jack, it could short that output.

A bad speaker voice coil could short out. I had that happen, receiver was shutting down, then I realized speaker was not sounding correctly...that should only happen with abuse. I had blown the speaker during a party.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #13 of 23 Old 03-07-2012, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waterfallmtl View Post

Well, he said his name at beginning of the phone call, but I don't remember, anyways, I think you are right, people report problems, they have scripts to deal with people. I don't think it's tech's fault, it's the company.

why they lie or give misleading info? the only reason I can think of is that they try to avoid responsibilities. If I want to spend $1000 replace my speakers or receiver, I wouldn't come here to ask questions, I would just take their words and go with it. I guess that is most people would do, not everyone knows a lot about this kind of things.

today, these companies don't make quality products anymore, they just want you to use it for a few years, then it breaks, you will have to buy a new one, the companies make more money this way. they say because costumers want cheaper stuff, but I think they are just greedy. and they want to lower the cost, so they buy parts from all over the world, and they just outsource the parts, then quality control become a huge problem. anyways, I start to think extended warranty maybe a good idea.

it's always possible that the person calling isn't providing all of the pertinent information as well...

your last paragraph isn't true...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #14 of 23 Old 03-12-2012, 06:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

Assuming it was a short (not proven,) it could happen a number of ways. Yes, if a plug popped out of speaker output jack, it could short that output.

A bad speaker voice coil could short out. I had that happen, receiver was shutting down, then I realized speaker was not sounding correctly...that should only happen with abuse. I had blown the speaker during a party.

Thank you very much!

I guess I will have to be extra careful with these plugs, check on them now and then.
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post #15 of 23 Old 03-12-2012, 07:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

it's always possible that the person calling isn't providing all of the pertinent information as well...

your last paragraph isn't true...

Thank you for replying!

I called, told tech guy what's the symptom of my receiver, he immediately asked my speaker's brand name and model, and told me the whole story. He was leading the conversation, I just answered his questions. I don't know what more I can tell him.

And for the last paragraph, I am business school MBA student. In many courses, we have discussed what's going on in business world. I didn't come up with these theories, they are common practice in today's manufacturing sector. Before, it's built to last, today, it's how to lower costs. we compared the raise and fall between Toyota and GM, why GM's plan to build car you have to replace after a few year, giving Toyota chance to take over GM's market.

I think if you ask around, many will tell you stories about their broken electronics, I am not saying they should last forever, but you have certain expectation from these companies.
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post #16 of 23 Old 03-12-2012, 07:09 PM
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^^^

good for you...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

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post #17 of 23 Old 03-12-2012, 07:17 PM
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I have no complaints on quality from any Yamaha receiver. However, for some reason, my Z7 remote control failed way before I feel it should. I have rarely had a remote control develop defective contacts. But it could be a fluke...my 2700 and 3900 remotes worked just fine until the day I sold them.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #18 of 23 Old 03-14-2012, 07:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

I have no complaints on quality from any Yamaha receiver. However, for some reason, my Z7 remote control failed way before I feel it should. I have rarely had a remote control develop defective contacts. But it could be a fluke...my 2700 and 3900 remotes worked just fine until the day I sold them.

I agree, it's just so annoying when electronics break, especially when you just brought it for a year or 2. you have to fix it or replace it, it's just such a hassle.

I have this Samsung 46" TV, right after warranty expired, 2 capacitors were blown. I googled the problem, many many people had the same problem, I watched other people's video on Youtube and fixed it myself. otherwise, I had to spend a lot of more money and time to deal with it. it's just 2 small capacitors, only cost a dollar, I had no TV for a week, I had to order them online, then spending hours to repair it. If Samsung used quality parts at first place, it will save everybody a lot of time and energy. well, I guess that's just the reality.
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post #19 of 23 Old 03-14-2012, 08:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^

good for you...

Hi, I hope I didn't offend you. I was just simply saying what I felt. I think if you ask anybody, they will tell you today's electronics have much shorter lives than before.

I moved in this new apartment 4 years ago, I brought some new electronics since I wanted to keep my old stuff at home. last year, they all dropped like flies. 1 space heater, 1 electric water kettle, 1 universal remote control, 1 passport hard-disk, 1 rice cooker, 1 cable TV DVR, they all just simply stopped working. not mention the Samsung TV, small ones are OK, imaging taking this huge TV to be repaired. and the time I would have to spend and wait. at same time, my parents' 20 year old microwave oven is still in my kitchen, working perfectly.
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post #20 of 23 Old 03-14-2012, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waterfallmtl View Post

I agree, it's just so annoying when electronics break, especially when you just brought it for a year or 2. you have to fix it or replace it, it's just such a hassle.

I have this Samsung 46" TV, right after warranty expired, 2 capacitors were blown. I googled the problem, many many people had the same problem, I watched other people's video on Youtube and fixed it myself. otherwise, I had to spend a lot of more money and time to deal with it. it's just 2 small capacitors, only cost a dollar, I had no TV for a week, I had to order them online, then spending hours to repair it. If Samsung used quality parts at first place, it will save everybody a lot of time and energy. well, I guess that's just the reality.

ohh thats to bad if you threaten to sue them they will come out to fix the caps.
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post #21 of 23 Old 03-14-2012, 08:24 PM
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I would be concerned with banana plugs popping out never heard of that if they are pushed in all the way it should never happen unless they were cheaply made or real loose to begin with.
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post #22 of 23 Old 03-15-2012, 08:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cookieattk View Post

ohh thats to bad if you threaten to sue them they will come out to fix the caps.

yes, people online tried to file a class action lawsuit, Samsung extended warranty for a year, I just missed for 2 months.
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post #23 of 23 Old 03-15-2012, 08:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by oztech View Post

I would be concerned with banana plugs popping out never heard of that if they are pushed in all the way it should never happen unless they were cheaply made or real loose to begin with.

Indeed, I am worried about it. they are on the back of speaker against the wall, nothing or no one would disturb them, and 2 of them from 2 different speakers popped out, they are from Monster, unless they are counterfeited, they should have good quality. but I brought them from a well-known chain store. I guess something you just never know.
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