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post #1 of 26 Old 03-16-2012, 01:18 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm trying to understand if i missed any other good option.

at the moment i have Rotel -1095 and Studio 60s V4.



Seems like in this price range the options are :

Marantz av7005 <- is that just a very expensive 3312ci in a different box without the amps ?
Integra 80.1/2/3 <- seems more expensive and no airplay ?
Receiver as pre amp like Denon 3312ci/4311 <- not sure about SQ compare to
dedicated Pre/Pro

Rotel 1570 <- perfect match to my Power, but no airplay and other stuff
Rotel 1572 <- expensive , no airplay , and issues ?

any other PrePro in the 1k-1.5k that i should look at and consider ?


seems to me the Marantz is a good "decathlon" all around unit.
not the "best" in any thing but does the job.
I noticed that it doesnt have the latest xt32, is that an issue for someone that uses single sub ?

what about rumors on a replacement unit that comes out soon ?

i do need to mention, 2ch Stereo is 80% for me (but my budget is limited as well).

thanks

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post #2 of 26 Old 03-16-2012, 01:39 PM
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If you don't need >4 HDMI inputs or more than one output, the Anthem MRX300 is a viable option at $1k, I use it as a pre/pro.
I like that it comes with ARC, which uses the power of a PC instead of the receiver and comes with a calibrated mic (like Audyssey pro which costs $700 itself).
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post #3 of 26 Old 03-16-2012, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danny_isr View Post

Marantz av7005 <- is that just a very expensive 3312ci in a different box without the amps ?

Actually the AV7005 is a sawed-off 3311, not 3312. If you are using the room correction onboard I cant see any scientific reason there would be a difference in the sound from preamp output of all 3 models.

I'd imagine that the AV7005 is only really worth it if you had some crazy amazing multichannel amp - and if you did, it would be the amp making the marginal difference.

Also, even as a preamp, you'd get more value by buying the Denon 4311 and using that as a preamp, as it has a more updated room correction system (XT32). I cant say it is better, but its in an likelihood not worse and it is cheaper than the Marantz in street prices.

The AV7005 is priced high in order to cash in on the profile of expected buyer, IMO. Nothing to do with intrinsic value.

Not also that the Marantz SR7005, which picked up 5 star reviews everywhere I could see it, is a rebadged Denon 3311.
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post #4 of 26 Old 03-16-2012, 02:30 PM - Thread Starter
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yes that is what i suspected regarding the av7005.
it does have the XLR outputs that my Rotel has. Not sure if that is a real benefit.
And i read that it sounds pretty good (better then the 3311/2) .
Marantz claims the sound is "cleaner" then the SR7005 model.

The AV7005 has Bypass mode , that lets you connect 2 ch preamp.
can the 4311 do that ?

and it does have the looks ...decisions decsions
i do agree with you, if it's a 3311 , the thing is really over priced just b/c it's in the "separates" market.

i actually have here a denon 3312 for testing. What i didnt figure about the room correction , it doesn't let you fine tune the EQ after it's done .(Pioneer for example lets you). So it came out brighter then before .
So i ended up turning it off ...and fine tune the EQ manually.
unless i dont know how to use it correctly.




Regarding the Anthem 300 , how the 2ch stereo quality ?
looks like features wise , it's a bit behind. it's fine with me
if i know im gaining good SQ.

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post #5 of 26 Old 03-16-2012, 03:47 PM
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Just a few comments from someone who has the onkyo 3008, it locked up during firmware update trying to fix clicking problem, so its getting repaired.I also own the Sherwood Newcastle P-965 pre pro, great sound no hdmi. Bought the $1599 dollar Marantz av7005, kept it two weeks, and sent it back. It did every thing ok, not worth $1600 dollars in my opinion, it was glitchy, would drop sound for no apparent reason, cycling power would restore. The thing it did excel in was looks, it is beautiful. Purchased the Sherwood Newcastle R-972 to use as pre pro, good sound, has some glitches, but paid little over one third the price of the Marantz, and it sounds better to my ears. Also got the Emotiva UMC-1 at their close out price, it has some glitches as have been well documented, but the truth is it sounds damn good. Both the Sherwood and the Emotiva, sound better than the Marantz to me. The Onkyo and the Marantz are pretty close though the Marantz is better for music, and the Onkyo sounds better for home theatre. They were all hooked up to Carvin dcm 1500 pro amps and 5.1 system consisting of Mirage OMD-15, C1 center, and bipolar/dipole surrounds. Hope this helps.
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post #6 of 26 Old 03-16-2012, 04:04 PM
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what osamede said...

i had an av7005... edit: which, regardless of what an earlier poster said, was not "glitchy" in any way... i am VERY intolerant of things like that...

i now have an a100 (anniversary edition of 4311)...

i would not go back... and fwiw, music is my priority...

edit: i don't buy into the "this one is good for movies, but not music" routine...

- chris

 

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post #7 of 26 Old 03-16-2012, 04:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

what osamede said...

i had an av7005... edit: which, regardless of what an earlier poster said, was not "glitchy" in any way... i am VERY intolerant of things like that...

i now have an a100 (anniversary edition of 4311)...

i would not go back... and fwiw, music is my priority...

edit: i don't buy into the "this one is good for movies, but not music" routine...


how does the 4311 sound compares to the av7005 ? are you using the 4311 as preamp ? why did you switch to the 4311 ?

i have to admit , buying a preamp isnt easy

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post #8 of 26 Old 03-16-2012, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g4sho View Post

... Purchased the Sherwood Newcastle R-972 to use as pre pro, good sound, has some glitches, but paid little over one third the price of the Marantz, and it sounds better to my ears.....

I'd take a very hard look at the R-972. It has Trinnov Optimizer, which for my money is just amazing (different (better) world than Audyssey XT altogether). A great buy at the closeout price.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

...

i don't buy into the "this one is good for movies, but not music" routine...

I agree.
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post #9 of 26 Old 03-16-2012, 04:47 PM
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IMO, a 4311 is a no-brainer given the options you are looking at, at least as far as the Denon/Marantz components go. As a processor, it has better room correction (XT32), at least as good if not better electronics, and then they throw in a very nice 9-channel amp section as a bonus for free, which are assignable, so you can use all or none of them or anything in between. The only advantage I see with the av7005 is XLR outs, which isn't really a big deal to me.
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post #10 of 26 Old 03-16-2012, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danny_isr View Post

how does the 4311 sound compares to the av7005 ? are you using the 4311 as preamp ? why did you switch to the 4311 ?

i have to admit , buying a preamp isnt easy

run flat and within spec, i'd place a large wager you could not differentiate them (with any type of competent amplification on the av7005' and competent amplification starts at a very low price)... turn on the dsp, and the answer immediately changes... the difference between xt and xt32 is not insignificant, especially for those of us with dual subs... this is confirmed by measurements...

no, i rid myself of my bryston when i got the a100, as it's amplification section is plenty robust to drive my "not easy to drive" speakers....

i switched for the better dsp... ime, dsp (specifically room correction) is the primary differentiator (and nothing else even comes close) between any modern avr/pre-pro, and imo/ime, xt32 is the real deal...

it actually is easy, if you put aside the, ummm, more questionable side of this hobby, and stick to an objective viewpoint...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjackkrash View Post

IMO, a 4311 is a no-brainer given the options you are looking at, at least as far as the Denon/Marantz components go. As a processor, it has better room correction (XT32), at least as good if not better electronics, and then they throw in a very nice 9-channel amp section as a bonus for free, which are assignable, so you can use all or none of them or anything in between. The only advantage I see with the av7005 is XLR outs, which isn't really a big deal to me.

and they really aren't an advantage, for two reasons...

- balanced connections are virtually never needed in a home environment...

- the balanced outs on the av7005 actually measure worse than the unbalanced ones when it comes to "noise"... note that doesn't mean "audibly worse"...

your mileage will not vary...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

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post #11 of 26 Old 03-16-2012, 10:42 PM - Thread Starter
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One more thing on the Marantz that i noticed today while researching this subject.

those are the differences Marantz claims to have from the SR7005:

 All-discrete, balanced preamplifier outputs
Hyper Dynamic Amplifier Modules (HDAM) oN the preamp board.
 Ultra-Quiet, Linear Power Supply
 Copper Shielded EI Core Power Transformer
 Pure Direct / Source Direct (Same)


anyone knows if that HDAM is real improvement ? i think the Denon 3311 doesnt have that . Maybe that is why some say it sounds better then the Denon ?

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post #12 of 26 Old 03-17-2012, 03:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danny_isr View Post

One more thing on the Marantz that i noticed today while researching this subject.

those are the differences Marantz claims to have from the SR7005:

? All-discrete, balanced preamplifier outputs
? Hyper Dynamic Amplifier Modules (HDAM) oN the preamp board.
? Ultra-Quiet, Linear Power Supply
? Copper Shielded EI Core Power Transformer
? Pure Direct / Source Direct (Same)

anyone knows if that HDAM is real improvement ? i think the Denon 3311 doesnt have that . Maybe that is why some say it sounds better then the Denon ?

I thought so initially but then you look at the specs and both are in the inaudible difference territory in terms of Signal/Noise ratio. Add to that the exact same room correction and personally I start to think "BS they are the same". The AV receivers are falling into the same trap as the airline industry where they think the road to profit is selling the same product at 75 different price points based on who the buyer is, instead of just improving it or providing better service.
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post #13 of 26 Old 03-17-2012, 05:38 AM
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@danny...

refer back to my statement about "the more questionable side of this hobby"...

many people "say" all kinds of things make a difference when they are aware of the marketing terms, the cost, their existing perception of a product, their existing "beliefs", and so on... when those variables are controlled, those "differences" magically disappear...

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post #14 of 26 Old 03-17-2012, 09:25 AM
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I would definitely go with the denon 4311 over the 7005 any day of the week. I use to own the av7005 and while it's very good for 2ch pure audio, it lacked dynamics in movies, especially with multeq xt.

The denon could be had for almost the same price with multeq xt32.

I now use a Integra DHC-80.3 and while it's not the greatest for 2ch music (prefer my Oppo 95), it blows the doors off of the av7005.
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post #15 of 26 Old 03-17-2012, 12:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CElee View Post

I use to own the av7005 and while it's very good for 2ch pure audio.

well that is what i'm looking for ... i mostly listen to music.

but yes i am very aware that marketing is big factor in those mass products.
And there is lot's of "self convincing" here as well.
Heck even with my current system some days it sound amazing to me , and then i can listen to the same thing day after and i feel it isn't that great.
So i can see how in forums like this one , opinions can be all over the spectrum .

Back to mass product and marketing , this is actually why i wanted (tried) to get away from them and hoped a dedicated PreAmp will be different.

I really thought the Marantz hit the ticket, but i guess you cannot win it all.
I'm looking for something that is relatively cheap and still has it all

Maybe in this price range its impossible. Another problem here you cannot really go with used stuff (like amps and speakers), because they are usually outdated formats/connectivity .

any word on the new Emotiva XMC-1 ?

i still hope i can go the separates way ...

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post #16 of 26 Old 03-17-2012, 04:49 PM
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My wife who has no clue when it comes to this stuff was able to pick and preferred my Oppo over my Integra for 2ch music. So it wasn't just me.

Now, I had a real hard time with the marantz vs Oppo. They both offered something different but precise. Pinpoint imaging and a perfect soundstage.

I cannot see the denon being any different, but I'm not sure. Plus it also offers xt32. Which some people do prefer using for 2ch music.
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post #17 of 26 Old 03-17-2012, 05:09 PM - Thread Starter
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hmm very interesting on that Oppo , i wasnt even aware of it.
I guess if budget isnt issue av7005 + Oppo is the best of both.
You can listen to 2ch music using the Oppo while the Marantz is in bypass mode.
and when watching a movie use the HDMI from Oppo to the Marantz ...

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post #18 of 26 Old 03-17-2012, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CElee View Post

I cannot see the denon being any different, but I'm not sure. Plus it also offers xt32. Which some people do prefer using for 2ch music.

yup... i enable xt32 for everything... my room doesn't have any way of knowing it's 2 channel music or a mch movie, it is agnostic... it has it's way with the sound emanating from the speakers, regardless of source...

fwiw, i use an oppo 93 as a disk spinner... hdmi for everything, because as noted in the previous paragraph, the room is consistent, it doesn't change from source to source...

- chris

 

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post #19 of 26 Old 03-17-2012, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

what osamede said...

i had an av7005... edit: which, regardless of what an earlier poster said, was not "glitchy" in any way... i am VERY intolerant of things like that...

i now have an a100 (anniversary edition of 4311)...

i would not go back... and fwiw, music is my priority...

edit: i don't buy into the "this one is good for movies, but not music" routine...

I am glad you did not ever have a glitch like loosing sound or center channel being the only speaker that sound would come from, until shutting off and turning back on. Not asking
anyone to buy in to anything, I was only giving my opinion, but some equipment is engineered to do somethings better than others, like some components have higher quality dacs than others, some focus on features, rather than sound, so the components that are used can make a particular piece better for one activity than for the other. Just common sense, and my ears can tell the difference when using these various pieces. And the one thing I have learned over a great deal of time and money in this hobby, is price does not equal great sound or necessarily quality. But the main point is at the price point of the Marantz, and the onkyo for that matter, there are alternatives that may sound better for a given application, and alot cheaper. I second the Sherwood Newcastle R-972 if sound quality in both music and movies is your ultimate goal. But with some issues, which for the price, I decided I can live with, until something else catches my fancy in the future.

Edit: I also own the Oppo 93, with its network capability, there is no need for networking on the receiver. And the picture quality and sound are excellent.
Also when I said the Marantz was glitchy, I did not mean this happened all the time. The issues I described above happened once each in the 2 weeks I had it. And at $1600, that was 2 times two many for me. If this would have not happened, I would have probably kept it, because like I said it did everything ok, did not blow me away with its sound but was acceptable, but it really looked damn good on top of my cabinet.
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I have auditioned 4311 and sr7005 . I swear marantz sounded far better with great control and dynamic range . I was auditioning Neil Young bluray 2 channel Massey Hall and other stuff with b&w CM9 . All content played in direct/pure mode.

av7005 should be at least the same or better compared to sr7005 . I got sr7005 since I had space constraints!! .

I would recommend Parasound/Emotiva/Outlaw/NAD amps for 2 channel to 5 channel goodness .
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post #21 of 26 Old 03-18-2012, 02:18 PM - Thread Starter
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i have here a 3312ci that i'm testing. Had a pioneer 1121 before that.
and nothing major "glitched" with the Denon but i can tell that the software isn't as robust as in the pioneer.
I noticed few times it had some kind of "hesitations" in the menus or just freezes on Pandora channels .
Even one time i had to unplug it from the outlet .because it was locked on one of the HDMI inputs and nothing helped.
I didnt experience anything like this with the Pioneer (and i had it for longer time).

with all that said , if the SQ is better i will go with Denon. those issues i described are not a killer for me, and pretty rare to happen.

But so far i didnt notice the 3312 is much better then the 1121 (as a preamp).
for sure not justifying the 2x in price.

you will need to a/b switch them , and i bet the SQ still going to be really small.
maybe if you use the internal amp the difference will be bigger ...i just didnt try that.

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post #22 of 26 Old 03-18-2012, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danny_isr View Post

But so far i didnt notice the 3312 is much better then the 1121 (as a preamp).
for sure not justifying the 2x in price.

you will need to a/b switch them , and i bet the SQ still going to be really small.
maybe if you use the internal amp the difference will be bigger ...i just didnt try that.

Those two receivers (Pioneer 1121 & Denon 3312) have room corrections systems that are quite different in philosophy, technology and sound frequency range. I'd imagine there is a good chance they'd present an audible difference in sound - as long as you have the room correction employed.
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post #23 of 26 Old 03-18-2012, 05:56 PM - Thread Starter
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true, i compared them mostly in 2 ch direct/pure mode.
i am mostly music stereo guy , and thought it will be better to compare that way.
I wasnt impressed from the Pioneer room correction , but i didnt really experiment with it much after i treated my room. so i wont say any more about it.
I do find myself turning off the audyssey on the 3312 sometimes too.
(and going back to "manual EQ" - at least the pioneer let you modify the EQ after it's done not the case with audyssey as far as i know).
it made the sound brighter on my already forward/bright speakers.
but it may be my lake of experience setting up audyssey as well.

I run it using a tripod at my listening position. but i didnt more the location of the Microphone in any other position for all the measurements.

i know it's kind of unrelated , but i had a Pioneer Car head unit few years ago .
and i used the correction with the mic, it made miracles over there !

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post #24 of 26 Old 03-18-2012, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danny_isr View Post

true, i compared them mostly in 2 ch direct/pure mode.
i am mostly music stereo guy , and thought it will be better to compare that way.
I wasnt impressed from the Pioneer room correction , but i didnt really experiment with it much after i treated my room. so i wont say any more about it.
I do find myself turning off the audyssey on the 3312 sometimes too.
(and going back to "manual EQ" - at least the pioneer let you modify the EQ after it's done not the case with audyssey as far as i know).
it made the sound brighter on my already forward/bright speakers.
but it may be my lake of experience setting up audyssey as well.

I run it using a tripod at my listening position. but i didnt more the location of the Microphone in any other position for all the measurements.

Audessy requires you to run about 8 mic positions. From what I remember with the Pioneer 2020 it used 1 or 2 only. So basically you never really set up the Audyssey.


These days, once you the the midrange products at about 5-600 bucks most of the sound difference and the dollar premium you pay for a reciever beyond that price point, lies in the room correction. I'd check and compare them carefully.
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post #25 of 26 Old 03-18-2012, 06:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osamede View Post

Audessy requires you to run about 8 mic positions.

Do you know what those positions are ?
from what i figured , the FIRST is your seating position , but about the rest i have no idea ...

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post #26 of 26 Old 03-18-2012, 06:45 PM
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See the Audyssey thread.

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