Question regarding DTS master audio and DD true hd - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 24 Old 03-19-2012, 09:03 PM - Thread Starter
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I finally upgraded frommyharman kardon AVR 335 to the AVR 3600 becuase i wanted to be able to experience the two newest formats, DTS master HD and DD True HD My questions are, whats the advantage these have over the Dolby Digital EX and the previous DTS? Senondly, on my AVR 335, it had an option that I loved for my 7 speaker setup called Dolby Digital plus prologic 11x which sent a matrix type of surround to my SRB and SLB speakers. I notice that there is no option on this one that i can tell, so I'm stuck with only utilizing 5 speakers. Does anyone know of something I may be missing on this so that i can do something similar to what i was doing with my 335? thanks!
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post #2 of 24 Old 03-19-2012, 11:45 PM
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The previous formats were 6.1 while the new HD formats are currently up to 7.1. Also, as is the case with most 7.1 AVRs today, DD PLIIx is a featured surround mode, including on the 3600. Ensure the rear surround speakers were enabled when you ran the Auto EQ/setup program.

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post #3 of 24 Old 03-20-2012, 12:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smfins View Post

i wanted to be able to experience the two newest formats, DTS master HD and DD True HD My questions are, whats the advantage these have over the Dolby Digital EX and the previous DTS?

There is no such thing as "DD True HD". DD and TrueHD are two different Dolby codecs.

DTS-HD MA and Dolby TrueHD are lossless packing technologies, like zipping a computer file. They pack the audio data more efficiently, to take up less storage space on the disc, without throwing away any of the data. This allows you to have a bit-for-bit identical copy of the original studio master that was used for encoding.

DD (Dolby Digital) and DTS are lossy compression technologies, like MP3 or AAC. They use psychoacoustics in an attempt to drastically reduce the amount of data while minimizing the impact on sound quality.

EX is matrix encoding and decoding technology. An EX encoder is used to fold a 3rd surround channel (the surround-back channel) into a discrete 5.1 soundtrack by mixing it equally in the left & right surround channels. Matrixing in an additional surround channel doesn't make the soundtrack 6.1, just makes it 5.1 EX.

Upon playback, the EX decoder in your receiver will extract the surround-back channel and send it to the speakers behind you, while the L/R surround channels will be sent to the speakers at your sides. This allows you to have stable rear-vs-side directionality in the surround field. However, if you have a 5.1-speaker layout, then the surround-back info will phantom image behind you (backwards compatibility).

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post #4 of 24 Old 03-20-2012, 05:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for explaining that to me. @ JD smoothie. I don't even see the DD porollogic 11x format mentioned anywhere in the manual, and i definitely have all 7 speakers activated?? Hmmmm? I guess i'll keep messing with it. Thanks again
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post #5 of 24 Old 03-20-2012, 07:06 AM
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^^
It's mentioned several times in the 3600 manual as "IIx", there being two modes ... DD PLIIx - Movie and DD PLIIx - Music.

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post #6 of 24 Old 03-20-2012, 08:25 AM
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The AVR3600 should also have LOGIC7 and DTS Neo available for interpolation/matrix, in addition to Pro Logic II (not 11)x.
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post #7 of 24 Old 03-20-2012, 10:34 AM
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Did you double check your bluray player's setting just to make sure it is bitstreaming the new codecs correctly?

Are you really hearing a difference?
http://youtu.be/G-lN8vWm3m0
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post #8 of 24 Old 03-20-2012, 11:06 AM
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The 3600 cannot expand 5.1 DTS-HD-Ma and DTHD to 7.1 using Logic 7 or DPLIIx. You need to go to a 7550HD for that.
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post #9 of 24 Old 03-20-2012, 04:50 PM - Thread Starter
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What about basic Dolby digital and DTS from a standard dvd? Can it expand those? I am using my Playstation 3 for blue ray play, and as far as i know, it is outputting the proper signal. I will go in the menu just to make sure. I left it the way it was with my avr 335 except for changing the output to HDMI ony instead of using the Optical out.
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post #10 of 24 Old 03-20-2012, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smfins View Post

What about basic Dolby digital and DTS from a standard dvd? Can it expand those? I am using my Playstation 3 for blue ray play, and as far as i know, it is outputting the proper signal. I will go in the menu just to make sure. I left it the way it was with my avr 335 except for changing the output to HDMI ony instead of using the Optical out.

Go through the auto setup for Video/Audio in the PS3. It will auto negotiate through HDMI to figure out what the 3600 is capable of and check off those codecs and resolutions in the video and audio categories. You need to do this immediately to get the full capability.

The 3600 can do Logic7 and DPLIIx on lossy 5.1 codecs such as DTS and DD and 2 channel PCM. It just does not have the DSP horsepower to do it on lossless multi channel sources.
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post #11 of 24 Old 03-20-2012, 07:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Yep, I did that on the PS3 and it automatically detected everything. it pretty much checked off everything, and i set the PS3 to automatically send out the best format. When i go to my onscreen menu on the AVR3600 the only options it gives me on the current DVD I'm testing. (King Kong Standard DVD) it only allows me to pick Regular pro logic llX. The automatic signal it's getting is regular 5.1 Dolby Digital. I can't figure out how to get it to do the DDPL llX??? back to the manual i guess! Thanks for all the input!
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post #12 of 24 Old 03-20-2012, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bommai View Post

Go through the auto setup for Video/Audio in the PS3. It will auto negotiate through HDMI to figure out what the 3600 is capable of and check off those codecs and resolutions in the video and audio categories. You need to do this immediately to get the full capability.

The 3600 can do Logic7 and DPLIIx on lossy 5.1 codecs such as DTS and DD and 2 channel PCM. It just does not have the DSP horsepower to do it on lossless multi channel sources.

Incorrect..
The 3600 can only do Logic 7 with 2-channel PCM or 2-channel analog...

Just my $0.02...
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post #13 of 24 Old 03-22-2012, 10:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Well after talking with HK tech, unfortunately they no longer offer the combination mode of Dolby Digital+Pro Logicllx. I am really dissapointed about this because it gave me a way to utilize all 7 speakers while still using the Dolby Digital mode. Now my only option is to use plain Dolby Digital 5.1 or use Dolby pro Logic llx to utilize all 7 speakers which I don't want to do. Thats an old technology and Dolby Digital sounds much better. Oh well.....I'm bummed
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post #14 of 24 Old 03-23-2012, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smfins View Post

Well after talking with HK tech, unfortunately they no longer offer the combination mode of Dolby Digital+Pro Logicllx. I am really dissapointed about this because it gave me a way to utilize all 7 speakers while still using the Dolby Digital mode. Now my only option is to use plain Dolby Digital 5.1 or use Dolby pro Logic llx to utilize all 7 speakers which I don't want to do. Thats an old technology and Dolby Digital sounds much better. Oh well.....I'm bummed

I don't see what the problem is - you get native playback (which is the "ideal"), but you want "noise from all channels" instead?

Oh, and Pro Logic IIx is newer than AC-3; by about a decade. I'm assuming what HK told you is that it will only work on a stereo source though, which is (agreeably) a somewhat wonky way to do things, but it doesn't strike me as end of the world. Is there an EX mode you can enable? (Some receivers do not let you "stack" IIx and AC-3, but will let you put the AC-3 signal through EX; basically the same result at the end of the day).
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post #15 of 24 Old 03-23-2012, 03:33 PM - Thread Starter
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No, you can't force it into Dolby Digital EX. And onthe other format which they offered Dolby Digital+Prologic llx, it actually sounded great! The 5.1 went to the designated speakers it was supposed to and then it utilized the proLogicllx formatto send surround to the two rear speakers. it really really worked great and I'm missing it already. if you never tried it on one of the older HK receivers and you get the chance, give it a try. it was more than just "noise" from the two back channels.
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post #16 of 24 Old 03-23-2012, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smfins View Post

No, you can't force it into Dolby Digital EX. And onthe other format which they offered Dolby Digital+Prologic llx, it actually sounded great! The 5.1 went to the designated speakers it was supposed to and then it utilized the proLogicllx formatto send surround to the two rear speakers. it really really worked great and I'm missing it already. if you never tried it on one of the older HK receivers and you get the chance, give it a try. it was more than just "noise" from the two back channels.

Hrm, with no EX that seems obnoxious. I'd probably replace the receiver (being entirely serious with you), as it doesn't appear to do what you'd like it to do.

Regarding the "noise" comment - I was more referencing taking a stereo source and feeding it through a matrix to generate 7 or 9 output channels, not 5.1 + EX/ES matrix. It's somewhat silly that those are your options, but such is life.
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post #17 of 24 Old 03-23-2012, 09:34 PM - Thread Starter
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No receivers do Dolby Digital EX without the DVD being encoded with it. Not many DVD's are that I've seen. many are. The receiver does DD EX if it gets the signal. HK was the only one that offered the option i spoke of as far as I know.
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post #18 of 24 Old 03-23-2012, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smfins View Post

No receivers do Dolby Digital EX without the DVD being encoded with it. Not many DVD's are that I've seen. many are. The receiver does DD EX if it gets the signal. HK was the only one that offered the option i spoke of as far as I know.

I believe you are mistaken. I can apply DD-EX in my Denon, for example, regardless of whether the source is encoded with an EX flag.
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post #19 of 24 Old 03-23-2012, 09:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Oh OK. My previous HK 335 would allow me to choose DD EX even if the dvd wasn't encoded with it but the DD+PL llx mode sounded much better for whatever reason.... Atleast to me it did.
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post #20 of 24 Old 03-23-2012, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smfins View Post

No receivers do Dolby Digital EX without the DVD being encoded with it.

Every receiver I've ever seen can apply EX decoding to any DD 5.1 soundtrack.
Quote:
Originally Posted by smfins View Post

Oh OK. My previous HK 335 would allow me to choose DD EX even if the dvd wasn't encoded with it but the DD+PL llx mode sounded much better for whatever reason.... Atleast to me it did.

EX extracts a single surround-back channel, PLIIx extracts stereo surround-back channels. Maybe stereo rears sounded better to you than dual-mono rears.

Sanjay
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post #21 of 24 Old 03-23-2012, 10:01 PM - Thread Starter
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hmmmm, I'm going to contact HK again because it maskes no sense that this unit wouldn't do that.
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post #22 of 24 Old 03-24-2012, 02:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smfins View Post

Oh OK. My previous HK 335 would allow me to choose DD EX even if the dvd wasn't encoded with it but the DD+PL llx mode sounded much better for whatever reason.... Atleast to me it did.

Yes, many receivers can do this - the only receivers I've seen/used that cannot do this, do not support Dolby EX; as Sanjay said basically.

It's kind of odd that this machine won't do either EX or PLII - perhaps there's a firmware update?
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post #23 of 24 Old 03-24-2012, 07:29 AM - Thread Starter
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yeah it will do EX but only if it's receiving an EX signal.
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post #24 of 24 Old 03-24-2012, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smfins View Post

yeah it will do EX but only if it's receiving an EX signal.

That's surprising, considering what a mess the EX flag implementation was. For example: the very first DVD with an EX flag (to automatically trigger EX decoding in receivers) was the French language track on 'Pearl Harbor'; only problem, the movie was never mixed for EX. Doh! (That's why the English language track didn't have it.)

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