2012 models are disappointing - Page 4 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #91 of 114 Old 03-27-2012, 07:38 AM
AVS Special Member
 
bhazard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: NY
Posts: 2,413
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superman07 View Post

This seems like it would be a great thread to find a comprehensive matrix of 2012 products, yet I've only heard a few generalities by brand...and lots of economics talk...

People like to think they're always right, and have condescending attitudes against others while doing so. I can do the same and talk about 2012 models at the same time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

If there are compelling new capabilities developed that aren't being offered, I haven't seen them. Complaining that the vendors won't offer premium features like XT32 in less expensive units is being unrealistic, at least until XT64 (or whatever) is available. Why would a vendor cannibalize it's own premium market?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

When/if the 2012 models don't sell, the companies will be forced to re-evaluate.

It doesn't look like this is the year of <$1,000 XT32 though. Maybe next year. Someone will eventually get it. $$$$ and sales talk.

"Onkyo Announces TX-NR 717 and TX-NR 818 Mid-range Receivers" 818 has XT32 included, MSRP $1199. Pre-order prices and sales will most likely bring it to $999 or less, as seen with previous 8xx models.

I guess Onkyo didn't take the "unrealistic" advice of the "economics experts" here. Silly competition forcing others to innovate or to provide a similar product at the same price point....
bhazard is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #92 of 114 Old 03-27-2012, 08:11 AM
Member
 
JDEaston's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 198
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post


People like to think they're always right, and have condescending attitudes against others while doing so. I can do the same and talk about 2012 models at the same time.

"Onkyo Announces TX-NR 717 and TX-NR 818 Mid-range Receivers" 818 has XT32 included, MSRP $1199. Pre-order prices and sales will most likely bring it to $999 or less, as seen with previous 8xx models.

I guess Onkyo didn't take the "unrealistic" advice of the "economics experts" here. Silly competition forcing others to innovate or to provide a similar product at the same price point....

I've stayed away from this thread due to all of the economics talk, but I will say that Onkyo providing so many features at such a low price point is a catch 22. While they do offer the most features per dollar, their build quality has taken a huge hit in the process. Avr's are just like anything wlse, you get what you pay for in terms of quality. It's not a mystery how Onkyo has been able to lower their price point, they're just using cheaper internals, which is fine as long as build quality doesn't take a huge hit. In Onkyo's case, it certainly has. The old saying if it sounds to good to he true, it probably is, applies in this case. The Onkyo's look great on paper, and offer robust features and sound quality when working properly. But if your holding your breath everytime you power the thing up, is it really worth it?
JDEaston is offline  
post #93 of 114 Old 03-27-2012, 08:44 AM
AVS Special Member
 
CruelInventions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Chicago-ish
Posts: 4,543
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Liked: 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legends View Post

Shhh, don't tell anyone but, try out Emotiva.

Thanks, this thread needed a dose of levity.

Mourning the disappearing usage of the -ly suffix. Words being cut-off before they've had a chance to fully form, left incomplete, with their shoelaces untied and their zippers undone. If I quote your post (or post in your thread) without comment, please check your zipper.
CruelInventions is online now  
post #94 of 114 Old 03-27-2012, 08:57 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
ccotenj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: the toxic waste dumps of new jersey
Posts: 21,915
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 90
^^^

lol.... yea, that would be a disappointing 2007 unit...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

ccotenj is offline  
post #95 of 114 Old 03-27-2012, 10:32 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mjpearce023's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Little Rock
Posts: 2,489
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

Looks like I nailed it. The Onkyo 818 is going to have XT32. Very smart move by Onkyo.

Excellent news! I have been wanting XT32 for the longest. If the 818 sells for a similar price as the 809 then I will have one for sure.
mjpearce023 is offline  
post #96 of 114 Old 03-27-2012, 10:41 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Venomous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Huntington Beach/San Diego CA
Posts: 1,198
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjpearce023 View Post

Excellent news! I have been wanting XT32 for the longest. If the 818 sells for a similar price as the 809 then I will have one for sure.

Hopefully they have addressed their piss poor quality control on their new receivers. I would never give onkyo time of day anymore based on my own experience with them.
Venomous is offline  
post #97 of 114 Old 03-27-2012, 11:37 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mjpearce023's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Little Rock
Posts: 2,489
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Venomous View Post

Hopefully they have addressed their piss poor quality control on their new receivers. I would never give onkyo time of day anymore based on my own experience with them.

I haven't seen as many complaints on the 09 series as I did on the 06 07 and 08 series. I have read horror stoires about there customer service so that does worry me a bit. I wouldn't touch the 08 series with all the problems they had with it. I won't say that I trust Onkyo now but I would probably go ahead and take a chance since the 09 series didn't get as hot and I didn't hear as many complaints about it as the previous 3 series. I will wait a couple months before I buy one just to see if there are any major issues and to get a sale price. If it sells for the same price as the 809 there is no way I could turn down XT32 for that price no matter how iffy I am about their customer service and quality control. Hopefully that doesn't come back to bite me. I still would rather have the 4311 but I doubt it will be around for 650 anytime soon so I will probably just settle for the Onkyo. I am wondering if the 3313 will have XT32 because I really like my 3311 and would like to stay Denon if possible. All I know is that my next receiver will have XT32.
mjpearce023 is offline  
post #98 of 114 Old 03-27-2012, 11:37 AM
AVS Special Member
 
bhazard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: NY
Posts: 2,413
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Venomous View Post

Hopefully they have addressed their piss poor quality control on their new receivers. I would never give onkyo time of day anymore based on my own experience with them.

I've had multiple Onkyo receivers in the past, and each year is different in quality I've noticed. I had the 606 which was a hot mess (literally), and had to send it in to get warranty repaired. It worked fine afterwards. I had the 608 and it was flawless.

If I didn't already have the 4311, I would have definitely taken the chance on the 818.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mjpearce023 View Post

I am wondering if the 3313 will have XT32 because I really like my 3311 and would like to stay Denon if possible. All I know is that my next receiver will have XT32.

If they are around the same price, I would def go Denon. I like them the most out of all AVR makers.
bhazard is offline  
post #99 of 114 Old 03-27-2012, 12:07 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Sam S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,171
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 20
One thing to think about is that the 4311CI will likely be the last sub (street) $2K priced receiver from Denon made in Japan. That 4311CI chassis is different than the 3312CI and below units.
Sam S is offline  
post #100 of 114 Old 03-27-2012, 12:46 PM
Advanced Member
 
zoetmb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 502
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

From everything I've read, it looks like the 2012 models of receivers are a big disappointment. In most cases there's no real difference between 2011 and 2012 models. It seems like all that's happened is the model numbers and price were pushed up a little. I've read about Pioneer, Denon, Yamaha and Onkyo. Pretty much all the major brands.

I was hoping higher end audyssey worked it's way into lower models. It doesn't look like it.

I was hoping 9.2 and higher worked down into lower end models. Nope.

I was hoping pre-outs worked their way into lower end models. Nope.

I was hoping mcacc and/or ypao added sub eq. Nope.

It seems like TVs have better 2012 models, but not AV equipment.

First of all, it's only March. The higher-end receiver models haven't been announced yet. They usually come a bit later in the year.

Secondly, I don't know what you expect. Lower end models sell for $300 to $500. For $500 (at the high-end of the "low end"), you generally get from five to nine channels of 50 to 100 watts of sound per channel and all kinds of digital processing for both audio and video and usually web connectivity wtih all kinds of services. That's very inexpensive. Nine channels of amps for $500? That's $55 per channel.

The problem is that everyone's been spoiled by low prices enabled by cheap Chinese labor costs.

Back in 1980, I paid around $400 for a good quality 2-channel preamp. (Apt-Holman). That's $1105 in 2012 dollars and that's just for a preamp, obviously without any web connectivity, services or digital processing and it was only 2-channel.

I don't know why you expect high-end features in low-end receivers. That's why they have high(er)-end receivers. Personally, I'd wish they'd take half the crap features OUT of the models and prioritize on high quality sound.
zoetmb is offline  
post #101 of 114 Old 03-27-2012, 12:59 PM
Advanced Member
 
zoetmb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 502
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by guisar View Post

Meaning very few models have them.

Preamp outs are really not needed at the low end. People who buy the low end NEVER add external amps (aside from a powered subwoofer). But IMO, they're mandatory at the high end. I'm not noticing preamp outs going away at the higher end, but I am noticing multichannel preamp inputs going away, but that makes sense since most BR players and other devices are eliminating them.

And the receiver manufacturers have supported composite and component video much longer than I thought they would. IMO, at this point, anything more than one composite, one component, and one s-video (although they're mostly already gone anyway) is overkill. How many people who are buying a new receiver have more than one video device that's not HDMI?

It's time to start simplifying these receivers and cleaning up the back panels and related circuitry. Most people have nothing more than an HDMI BD player and one or two game machines these days. It's only the real audio/videophiles who have turntables, analog tape, laserdisc and other non-HDMI devices.
zoetmb is offline  
post #102 of 114 Old 03-27-2012, 06:14 PM
585-645-1006
 
jdsmoothie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 45,292
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1418 Post(s)
Liked: 1604
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoetmb View Post

How many people who are buying a new receiver have more than one video device that's not HDMI?

Still need the analog inputs to pass audio to Zone 2 on the vast majority of Zone 2 AVRs. I'm seeing more and more Zone 2 related questions as folks start expanding audio to their decks and other rooms in the house.

---------------------------------
"JD" – jd@avscience.com ; shop.avscience.com ; 585-645-1006, AVScience - Authorized dealer for AVRs, Speakers, etc. 
Daily 8am – 8pm EST (Sat/Sun too if you leave message)
Call for pricing on Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, Pioneer Elite, Def Tech, Atlantic Tech, Oppo
** Think the AVR is defective?  Reset the microprocessor 4-5 times. 
jdsmoothie is online now  
post #103 of 114 Old 03-27-2012, 06:48 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jproy13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: East of West, Canada
Posts: 1,195
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoetmb View Post

Back in 1980, I paid around $400 for a good quality 2-channel preamp. (Apt-Holman). That's $1105 in 2012 dollars and that's just for a preamp, obviously without any web connectivity, services or digital processing and it was only 2-channel.

Yet, ppl expect the kitchen sink with today's AVRs for $400

Quote:


Personally, I'd wish they'd take half the crap features OUT of the models and prioritize on high quality sound.

agreed, probably not going to happen but agreed. In order to capture the younger market, they have to keep all the "I Stuff" that they demand. Unfortunately, something has to suffer and it's most of the time the amp section. And when a company tries to do both, like say...Onkyo, well something else has to suffer, like quality control for instance. I'm not accusing Onkyo of poor quality control, but hey, the number of complaints seems to be targeted towards them a lot.

just saying....

cheers
jproy13 is offline  
post #104 of 114 Old 03-27-2012, 08:08 PM
Senior Member
 
AVTrauma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Vancouver, Wa
Posts: 387
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
onlyclave - where are you hearing that Denon will not be releasing a 4313 model later this year? You are the first I have heard state (emphatically) that this will not happen. What is your source?

mj - careful with the new Onkyo line (809 -> 818) possibly just repackaging with a new name from last years models, and as eluded to in this thread, without significant changes (as done by all manufacturers/models). Unfortunately, after the X08/XX08 model fiasco, Onkyo was again forced to issue a press release recently with the X09 models due to shutting down.

I don't think economic lessons are necessary to explain the dearth of inovations anticipated this year... I just wish I had the economic power in my bank account to stimulate the economy with my pursuit of Audio/Video nervana!
AVTrauma is offline  
post #105 of 114 Old 03-27-2012, 09:02 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mjpearce023's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Little Rock
Posts: 2,489
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVTrauma View Post

mj - careful with the new Onkyo line (809 -> 818) possibly just repackaging with a new name from last years models, and as eluded to in this thread, without significant changes (as done by all manufacturers/models). Unfortunately, after the X08/XX08 model fiasco, Onkyo was again forced to issue a press release recently with the X09 models due to shutting down.

Thanks for the info. I just looked it up and found the recall, at least the UK version. I can't believe they did it again. It's really bad that the models were from October 2011 to Jan 2012 because that would mean that they tried to cut corners after selling them for several months. That's pretty bad. I also wonder if the 818 will really have XT32. The release says the 717 will have 2EQ which makes no sense at all so I wouldn't be surprised if the XT32 was a typo or mistake as well.
mjpearce023 is offline  
post #106 of 114 Old 03-28-2012, 02:22 AM
Member
 
edo101's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 122
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I agree, i thought lower model ONkyo this year will have Multi Eq XT for subs. at least for the 609's replacement.

I believe for AVRs the most important "audio" enhancers like room correction should be available. Leave out the extra stuff like 2 HDMI outs, 9.2, zone audio for higher end AVRs. but leave the core audio packet in tact.

My biggest gripe has been the lack of Subwoofer Eq room correction for lower end AVR. Like who gives a crap about some of the network stuff, improve CORE AUDIO qualities
edo101 is offline  
post #107 of 114 Old 03-28-2012, 06:19 AM
Member
 
guns&motorcycles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 59
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by edo101 View Post

I agree, i thought lower model ONkyo this year will have Multi Eq XT for subs. at least for the 609's replacement.

I believe for AVRs the most important "audio" enhancers like room correction should be available. Leave out the extra stuff like 2 HDMI outs, 9.2, zone audio for higher end AVRs. but leave the core audio packet in tact.

My biggest gripe has been the lack of Subwoofer Eq room correction for lower end AVR. Like who gives a crap about some of the network stuff, improve CORE AUDIO qualities

The Denon 1712 does that pretty well. No networking, but Audyssey MultEQ XT. I'd like it if Onkyo did something similar.
guns&motorcycles is offline  
post #108 of 114 Old 03-29-2012, 03:47 PM
Advanced Member
 
pukemon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 776
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by guns&motorcycles View Post

The Denon 1712 does that pretty well. No networking, but Audyssey MultEQ XT. I'd like it if Onkyo did something similar.

i can vouche for the 1712. i do wish it had a little more oomph though but i'm saving up for another receiver anyways.
pukemon is offline  
post #109 of 114 Old 03-29-2012, 04:11 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Audiodork's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Siesta Key, Florida
Posts: 2,442
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjpearce023 View Post

Thanks for the info. I just looked it up and found the recall, at least the UK version. I can't believe they did it again. It's really bad that the models were from October 2011 to Jan 2012 because that would mean that they tried to cut corners after selling them for several months. That's pretty bad. I also wonder if the 818 will really have XT32. The release says the 717 will have 2EQ which makes no sense at all so I wouldn't be surprised if the XT32 was a typo or mistake as well.

I am guessing it is Subcontractors (again like with the IDE Cable in the x08 Series) that are behind the Transistor Board which is the reason for the Recall on the November-January x09's. Given that Onkyo has acted quickly to get the affected AVR's off Retailers Stock and I too have heard far less complaints about the x09's makes me feel better about the current direction of Onkyo.

For what its worth, I have had a TX-NR3008 for 8 Months and has been flawless. I use it strictly as a Prepro, but it has been just fine. My former TX-SR805 and 875 were both sold to friends and both are now 5 years old and have never needed repair as well. I did have a TX-NR3007 that was a disaster. It was a Refurbished Model (the only one of the 4), but between Service Center ineptitude and a bizarre issue, I was without an HDMI AVR from May until early July. Onkyo ended giving me an A-Stock 3008 which I mentioned above. I also value AVR's Made in Japan and lament that Denon too has started to move all production away from Japan. As the 5808CI is a pretty old design that requires an additional $1000 to add XT32 and HDMI 1.4 (these updates will always need to be done by the Owner sending it in) and the 4810 too is fairly dated, it makes sense why they remain built there.
Cheers,
AD

Radio Shack SPL Meter Owner
Audiodork is offline  
post #110 of 114 Old 03-29-2012, 07:51 PM
 
DS-21Phone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 16
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by jproy13 View Post

Leaves little $$$ for R&D on what matters, amplification.

That's a silly comment. Receiver makers either use bog standard ab designs that have not been materially changed since the 1970s, or pick up an off the peg solution (chip amps, modules such as icepower) from a 3d party. Even the powersupplies are generally mid century technology, ei cores or torroids and not modern switch mode ps's. And that's fine. Amps evolved in the mid 20th century to be sonically transparent. But most avr makers have been woefully inadequate in improving their amps where actual improvements can be made, such as energy efficiency.

The last avr's to offer amps resulting from actual R&D were the TI/Panasonic models from last decade...
DS-21Phone is offline  
post #111 of 114 Old 03-29-2012, 09:00 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mjpearce023's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Little Rock
Posts: 2,489
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiodork View Post


I am guessing it is Subcontractors (again like with the IDE Cable in the x08 Series) that are behind the Transistor Board which is the reason for the Recall on the November-January x09's. Given that Onkyo has acted quickly to get the affected AVR's off Retailers Stock and I too have heard far less complaints about the x09's makes me feel better about the current direction of Onkyo.

For what its worth, I have had a TX-NR3008 for 8 Months and has been flawless. I use it strictly as a Prepro, but it has been just fine. My former TX-SR805 and 875 were both sold to friends and both are now 5 years old and have never needed repair as well. I did have a TX-NR3007 that was a disaster. It was a Refurbished Model (the only one of the 4), but between Service Center ineptitude and a bizarre issue, I was without an HDMI AVR from May until early July. Onkyo ended giving me an A-Stock 3008 which I mentioned above. I also value AVR's Made in Japan and lament that Denon too has started to move all production away from Japan. As the 5808CI is a pretty old design that requires an additional $1000 to add XT32 and HDMI 1.4 (these updates will always need to be done by the Owner sending it in) and the 4810 too is fairly dated, it makes sense why they remain built there.
Cheers,
AD

Well it really comes down to XT32. If its on the 818 I will try one out. It is good that onkyo issued a recall but sad that they have had to for 2 generations in a row. I have an authorized onkyo repair center about 2 blocks from me so I will take a chance if XT32 was not a typo.
mjpearce023 is offline  
post #112 of 114 Old 09-17-2012, 11:20 AM
Newbie
 
AVPLUS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I enjoyed your post and agree wholeheartedly. Thanks for the link to the video, it was great fun!
AVPLUS is offline  
post #113 of 114 Old 09-18-2012, 08:23 AM
 
cybrsage's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 8,074
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21Phone View Post


That's a silly comment. Receiver makers either use bog standard ab designs that have not been materially changed since the 1970s, or pick up an off the peg solution (chip amps, modules such as icepower) from a 3d party. Even the powersupplies are generally mid century technology, ei cores or torroids and not modern switch mode ps's. And that's fine. Amps evolved in the mid 20th century to be sonically transparent. But most avr makers have been woefully inadequate in improving their amps where actual improvements can be made, such as energy efficiency.


The last avr's to offer amps resulting from actual R&D were the TI/Panasonic models from last decade...

They realized any money spent making them more efficient will be money thrown away. While everyone will applaud them, no one will spend the hundreds extra for it. (By no one, I mean the vast majority of people)
cybrsage is offline  
post #114 of 114 Old 09-18-2012, 11:06 AM
Member
 
Strider-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 121
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
I'm pretty happy about the HDMI matrix in the Denon 3313ci. Makes it much nicer for my setup. The loss of PCM 2.0 to zone 2/3 was a disappointment though.
Strider- is offline  
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off