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post #1 of 114 Old 03-20-2012, 05:39 PM - Thread Starter
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From everything I've read, it looks like the 2012 models of receivers are a big disappointment. In most cases there's no real difference between 2011 and 2012 models. It seems like all that's happened is the model numbers and price were pushed up a little. I've read about Pioneer, Denon, Yamaha and Onkyo. Pretty much all the major brands.

I was hoping higher end audyssey worked it's way into lower models. It doesn't look like it.

I was hoping 9.2 and higher worked down into lower end models. Nope.

I was hoping pre-outs worked their way into lower end models. Nope.

I was hoping mcacc and/or ypao added sub eq. Nope.

It seems like TVs have better 2012 models, but not AV equipment.
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post #2 of 114 Old 03-20-2012, 05:50 PM
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^^^

well...

- actually, in 2011, xt worked it's way down into lower models... however, they still need a differentiator for totl models... put xt32 in the denon 3xxx model (for example), and it would completely cannibalize sales of the 4xxx model...

- needless expense for lower end models... i doubt that 5% of consumers even have 5.1...

- same... i doubt that even 1% of that 5% would even consider external amplification (not to mention they don't need it)...

- very good point, and one that we have beaten to death in a few pio threads...

avrs, just like everything else, are built to a price point... and those price points are based on what the majority, not the small minority, want...

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post #3 of 114 Old 03-20-2012, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

From everything I've read, it looks like the 2012 models of receivers are a big disappointment. In most cases there's no real difference between 2011 and 2012 models.

When I looked at Yamaha models, there was not a big difference between 2010 and 2011 models I looked at.

There's really not a lot of interesting tech right now...not much has changed since HDMI 1.4 models started coming out that I can tell.

Seems your main dissapointment is a lack of trickle down. I am thinking it's not a good deal for mftr's to trickle down much into lower models when they have nothing cool to add to the higher models. Am I making sense?

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #4 of 114 Old 03-20-2012, 05:58 PM
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^^^

yup... you are making sense...

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post #5 of 114 Old 03-20-2012, 05:59 PM
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Denon dropped preouts several years ago on the lower models and as Chris notes, with the vast majority likely never even using (or needing for that matter) an external amp, no financial reason to bring them back.

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post #6 of 114 Old 03-20-2012, 06:34 PM
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furthermore, imo, we are reaching a bit of plateau of technology... the last half dozen or so years have brought new tech each year (primarily driven by hdmi, but some other goodies as well)...

right now, there's not a lot more to "do"... 4k, while a neat marketing term, really isn't of any concern to 99.999% of consumers (and whatever 4k display/pj they get down the road will already do 4k processing)...

as noted earlier, "more" channels of processing/amplification also have no real market in the lower ends, and also present other issues (more expensive power supplies for one, which are the most expensive part of any avr to begin with)...

we've reached a settling in point... which (for my wallet, anyway), isn't necessarily a bad thing...

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post #7 of 114 Old 03-20-2012, 06:36 PM
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Hmm. I'm glad I bought my 4311 the week it came out and that I won't need to replace it anytime soon.
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post #8 of 114 Old 03-20-2012, 06:44 PM
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I don't understand, I thought cool GUI graphics is all that is needed to boosts AVR sales and appease our tech and performance hunger

...did I just say that!
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post #9 of 114 Old 03-20-2012, 06:48 PM
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^^^

troublemaker...

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post #10 of 114 Old 03-20-2012, 07:20 PM
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I'm not aware of any technological feature improvement that has come out in the last few years. Has there been anything since HDMI 1.4?

A lot of the 'improvements' seems to have been related to adding more internet content and connectivity. This is just moving computer features to the AVR.
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post #11 of 114 Old 03-20-2012, 07:27 PM
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Yamaha has fine quality, but no dsx wide, no PLIIz and no NeoX.

How does the "presence channels" stack up on HT? Yamaha does have
many in-house surround modes too, how do they stack up on music
(including the use of "presence")?
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post #12 of 114 Old 03-21-2012, 05:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

Seems your main dissapointment is a lack of trickle down.

That is exactly what I'm disappointed in. Technology is supposed to get less expensive as time progresses and it seems like in 2012, it's become more expensive.
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post #13 of 114 Old 03-21-2012, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

Technology is supposed to get less expensive as time progresses and it seems like in 2012, it's become more expensive.

It trickles down much slower when they don't have something to replace it with (on the high-end).
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post #14 of 114 Old 03-21-2012, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post


That is exactly what I'm disappointed in. Technology is supposed to get less expensive as time progresses and it seems like in 2012, it's become more expensive.

You forgot about value of dollar against other currencies. We are lucky enough not to see price of electronics up by 50% from what we had a few years ago.
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post #15 of 114 Old 03-21-2012, 06:28 AM
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2011 models, look like a good year for purchase, because they are going to be current for a few years, it looks like. 4K is the next big thing coming and it is going to be a few years before it becomes a must have item. To me XT32 is what should be tempting people to move up right now. That is the feature that I was looking for in an AVR.

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post #16 of 114 Old 03-21-2012, 06:40 AM
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The new "feature" are going to center around iOS/Android integration, and other streaming services.
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post #17 of 114 Old 03-21-2012, 06:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap1 View Post

You forgot about value of dollar against other currencies. We are lucky enough not to see price of electronics up by 50% from what we had a few years ago.

That would be true if electronics were priced in ounces of silver or gold. But since everyone is trying to devalue their currency, it all evens out.
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post #18 of 114 Old 03-21-2012, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap1 View Post

You forgot about value of dollar against other currencies. We are lucky enough not to see price of electronics up by 50% from what we had a few years ago.

Don't be fooled, money is money, we are paying alot more, and getting less. As the title to this thread tells what its all about. If you think the new 2012 avrs are a big disappointment, just wait for the 2013 and 2014. By 2020 a avr will just be a crappy apple app.
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post #19 of 114 Old 03-21-2012, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

That would be true if electronics were priced in ounces of silver or gold. But since everyone is trying to devalue their currency, it all evens out.



Hmmm...

The AVR product category is dominated by Japan based corporation brands including Yamaha, Sony, Onkyo, Denon/Marantz. And their financials are reported in Japanese YEN, USA sales are in $ and then converted to YEN when consolidated in their respective financials. Last year the exchange rate was 117 YEN=1US$, now it is 82 YEN=1US$, so the value of the US$ has decreased 30%...

Since retail pricing for AVRs in the USA stayed about the same for the last year, Who covered the 30%??

Ding, Ding......
The product was cheapened up significantly by decreasing power transformer size, heat sinking..

Basic 101 Economics...
Can't raise retail pricing so they need to decrease their AVR material costs..

Next question...

Just my $0.02...
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post #20 of 114 Old 03-21-2012, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

That would be true if electronics were priced in ounces of silver or gold. But since everyone is trying to devalue their currency, it all evens out.

Read a book on economics and how exchange rates work, then report back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post

Don't be fooled, money is money, we are paying alot more, and getting less. As the title to this thread tells what its all about. If you think the new 2012 avrs are a big disappointment, just wait for the 2013 and 2014. By 2020 a avr will just be a crappy apple app.

You really believe that you are getting less and paying more for electronics, and more specifically AVR's.?

My Denon 3300 (purchased over a decade ago) cost about the same my A100, yet I'm very comfortable in saying that there is are a lot more features in the newer model. A LOT more.

I doubt you could name any electronic devices where your statement is accurate.
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post #21 of 114 Old 03-21-2012, 10:02 AM
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The solution to the problem in the original post is to buy a higher end 2011 model that is now selling for less. If you want pre-outs, 9.1, Audyssey XT 32, HDMI 1.4a and solid power, then look at the AVR-4311ci. Careful shopping around on the internet will get you a *very* good price on these today. This is what I just did. Be careful, some sites are stating they are in stock when the are in fact back ordered for weeks. Email or chat with the site to verify availability.
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post #22 of 114 Old 03-21-2012, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Read a book on economics and how exchange rates work, then report back.



You really believe that you are getting less and paying more for electronics, and more specifically AVR's.?

My Denon 3300 (purchased over a decade ago) cost about the same my A100, yet I'm very comfortable in saying that there is are a lot more features in the newer model. A LOT more.

I doubt you could name any electronic devices where your statement is accurate.

- yea, i didn't know that exchange rates only effected silver and gold... that's certainly an, ummm, different way of looking at things... currency traders would be shocked at this little nugget of "knowledge"...

- but... but... he's "honest"...

fwiw, anyone who thinks they are getting "less for their buck" today with electronics (vs. years ago) is kidding themselves, or simply isn't paying attention...

edit: what's intriguing to his "commentary" is that there is a healthy thread going on right now where someone is insisting that if we turn avr's into a crappy apple app they'd become the greatest thing since sliced bread...

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post #23 of 114 Old 03-21-2012, 10:31 AM
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When/if the 2012 models don't sell, the companies will be forced to re-evaluate.

It doesn't look like this is the year of <$1,000 XT32 though. Maybe next year. Someone will eventually get it. $$$$ and sales talk.
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post #24 of 114 Old 03-21-2012, 11:05 AM
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post #25 of 114 Old 03-21-2012, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

When/if the 2012 models don't sell, the companies will be forced to re-evaluate.

It doesn't look like this is the year of <$1,000 XT32 though. Maybe next year. Someone will eventually get it. $$$$ and sales talk.

they'll sell... if they don't, it won't be because of a lack of features/tech, it'll be because people don't have any money to spend... it's not like there will be 2011 models sitting around to be bought...

as far as xt32 goes, i wouldn't hold my breath on next year either... not as long as d&m and onkyo/integra are the only game in town for it... if d&m plans on selling a new 4xxx model (big IF) and onkyo/integra plans on selling $2k+ models, that's a HUGE differentiator...

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post #26 of 114 Old 03-21-2012, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

I was hoping 9.2 and higher worked down into lower end models. Nope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
- needless expense for lower end models... i doubt that 5% of consumers even have 5.1...

To add to ccotenj's post most people do not have a dedicated home theater and watch their movies in their living room. Even placing 5.1 in the living room can be a difficult for various reasons, never mind 9.2.
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post #27 of 114 Old 03-21-2012, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

You really believe that you are getting less and paying more for electronics, and more specifically AVR's.?

My Denon 3300 (purchased over a decade ago) cost about the same my A100, yet I'm very comfortable in saying that there is are a lot more features in the newer model. A LOT more.

This difference in perspective here is time horizon. Some are looking at what was around in 2010 and 2011, and seeing that the stuff around in 2012 is at best no better, and at best no cheaper.

From 2002 to 2012...that's a different story.

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post #28 of 114 Old 03-21-2012, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

This difference in perspective here is time horizon. Some are looking at what was around in 2010 and 2011, and seeing that the stuff around in 2012 is at best no better, and at best no cheaper.

From 2002 to 2012...that's a different story.

I agree with the time horizon comment, but responded to a post stating that it would be the same issue in 2020.

Overall, the complainers might have a leg to stand on if they could specify a new feature that ought to be in a 2012 AVR and isn't. And can describe it in a context that doesn't ignore economic and marketing realities.

If there are compelling new capabilities developed that aren't being offered, I haven't seen them. Complaining that the vendors won't offer premium features like XT32 in less expensive units is being unrealistic, at least until XT64 (or whatever) is available. Why would a vendor cannibalize it's own premium market?
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post #29 of 114 Old 03-21-2012, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

...
It doesn't look like this is the year of <$1,000 XT32 though. Maybe next year. Someone will eventually get it. $$$$ and sales talk.

XT32 may be great, but now that I've tasted Trinnov's 3D remapping, I really hope that it trickles into more mainstream products -- to me it's the most significant audio improvement I've heard in years.

I really hope it doesn't get relegated to esoteric "audiophile" brands only, but enters the mainstream -- it should be a great feature to differentiate a mass market AVR, if marketed right.
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post #30 of 114 Old 03-21-2012, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

I agree with the time horizon comment, but responded to a post stating that it would be the same issue in 2020.

Overall, the complainers might have a leg to stand on if they could specify a new feature that ought to be in a 2012 AVR and isn't. And can describe it in a context that doesn't ignore economic and marketing realities.

Here are a few, strictly on the audio performance side (I'm a casual video user at best, and don't know or care about it much):

-Real multisub capability, a la Harman SFM. XT32 handles multisubs poorly, so in my mind not even trying (XT, ARC) is a better solution.
-Superior handling of mains/sub integration. AVRs today do it poorly, because they do not run the mains and the subs together. Instead, they ping each separately and pray that their interaction will be predictable.
-"Advanced modes" with target curve editing and such, using the hardware that already comes with the unit and a computer linkup. (Audyssey Pro already gives one this ability. But it's an expensive add on.)
-OSX compatibility for RC software (ARC and Audyssey Pro must be run in Parallels or similar virtualization software on a Mac)
-Spatial remapping, a la Trinnov.
-More energy-efficient amplification (that most AVR's in 2012 still use 1970s amplifier technology puzzles me. Small/cheap ones should use modern chip amps, and bigger ones should use Class D amps)
-Pre-out/main-in loops, so advanced users can use the internal amps to drive speakers with outboard active crossovers.

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