Onkyo New AVR's TX-NR818,717,616 official Discussion [No Price Talk]Thread - Page 28 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #811 of 1113 Old 07-21-2012, 08:31 AM
Member
 
barryaz1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
Posts: 135
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I'm probably getting the 717 soon. A big question (for my wife) - will the HDMI signal pass through to the TV when the power's off on the 717? I'd appreciate it if someone already knows or can test. Thanks.
barryaz1 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #812 of 1113 Old 07-21-2012, 08:53 AM
Newbie
 
Darren J's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Epworth, South Yorkshire. UK
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I have the 818. If the 717 is anything like it, it will be FANTASTIC. It does have a HDMI through capability and works exceptionally well.
I initially had the 808 and it worked well, but I swopped my TV for a LG LW650t 3D and it started having loads of faults. I have had the 818 for about 2 weeks and so impressed. It is easy to set up and sounds amazing. The 717 has a few differences the main one being the XT32 aspect. If you can stretch believe me its worth every penny.
Darren J is offline  
post #813 of 1113 Old 07-21-2012, 09:06 AM
Member
 
barryaz1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
Posts: 135
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren J View Post

the XT32 aspect. y.

And a quick and dirty explanation of XT32, please?
barryaz1 is offline  
post #814 of 1113 Old 07-21-2012, 10:11 AM
AVS Special Member
 
babgvant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 2,006
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by barryaz1 View Post

And a quick and dirty explanation of XT32, please?

High quality room correction. Models lower than 818 just have the most basic version Audyssey provides.
babgvant is offline  
post #815 of 1113 Old 07-21-2012, 10:14 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
jmpage2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 10,053
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by barryaz1 View Post

I'm probably getting the 717 soon. A big question (for my wife) - will the HDMI signal pass through to the TV when the power's off on the 717? I'd appreciate it if someone already knows or can test. Thanks.

If it is like the 818 it does work but it can only be programmed to a specific HDMI input or the "last used" input. In other words it won't switch all of your HDMI channels when it is in standby mode.
jmpage2 is offline  
post #816 of 1113 Old 07-21-2012, 12:07 PM
Member
 
barryaz1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
Posts: 135
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

If it is like the 818 it does work but it can only be programmed to a specific HDMI input or the "last used" input. In other words it won't switch all of your HDMI channels when it is in standby mode.

Actually, that will be fine, so that it will revert to the satellite box and she can just turn on the TV and box and use the TV's volume. And I'll double-check the online manual, LOL - I know very well what those are like
barryaz1 is offline  
post #817 of 1113 Old 07-22-2012, 04:31 AM
585-645-1006
 
jdsmoothie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 42,997
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 348 Post(s)
Liked: 1317
Quote:
Originally Posted by barryaz1 View Post

I'm probably getting the 717 soon. A big question (for my wife) - will the HDMI signal pass through to the TV when the power's off on the 717? I'd appreciate it if someone already knows or can test. Thanks.

Although the "Auto" feature is no longer listed in the Owner's Manual as a selectable setting, it is still referred to as a setting. Perhaps a current owner can confirm whether the manual is simply incorrect?


Quote:
Originally Posted by barryaz1 View Post

And a quick and dirty explanation of XT32, please?

XT32 is the most advanced version of Audyssey MultEQ (2EQ-->MultEQ-->MultEQ XT-->MultEQ XT32) which can not only EQ the sub (2EQ on the 717 cannot EQ the sub) but also has 512x more speaker filters than used by 2EQ which should result in an appreciable increase in audio fidelity. Last year's model 709 which uses MultEQ XT would actually be the better buy over the 717 if audio fidelity is a requirement.

---------------------------------
"JD" – jd@avscience.com ; shop.avscience.com ; 585-645-1006, AVScience - AVSForum sponsor for 15 years  
Mon - Fri: 8am – 8pm EST (Sat/Sun, leave message)
Call for pricing on Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, Onkyo, Klipsch, Def Tech, Oppo, Parasound 
** Think the AVR is defective?  Reset the microprocessor 4-5 times. 
jdsmoothie is offline  
post #818 of 1113 Old 07-23-2012, 09:05 AM
Member
 
Lastyear4gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 57
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Although the "Auto" feature is no longer listed in the Owner's Manual as a selectable setting, it is still referred to as a setting. Perhaps a current owner can confirm whether the manual is simply incorrect?

XT32 is the most advanced version of Audyssey MultEQ (2EQ-->MultEQ-->MultEQ XT-->MultEQ XT32) which can not only EQ the sub (2EQ on the 717 cannot EQ the sub) but also has 512x more speaker filters than used by 2EQ which should result in an appreciable increase in audio fidelity. Last year's model 709 which uses MultEQ XT would actually be the better buy over the 717 if audio fidelity is a requirement.

In regards to the Passthrough, I'm having a problem with the 818. When set to cable/sat (hdmi input 1), It will passthrough the video weather the receiver is on or in standby, but no audio either way. Any suggestions?

LG 47LG70 LCD, Onkyo TX-NR818, Energy Connoiseur CC-10, 4- CB-20's, 4 Omnimount 20.0, 2- CR-10's, 10" JBL Studio 150, PS3, Bell 9143 HD PVR
Lastyear4gt is offline  
post #819 of 1113 Old 07-23-2012, 09:11 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
jmpage2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 10,053
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lastyear4gt View Post

In regards to the Passthrough, I'm having a problem with the 818. When set to cable/sat (hdmi input 1), It will passthrough the video weather the receiver is on or in standby, but no audio either way. Any suggestions?

There is a separate HDMI setting (I am not sitting in front of my AVR at the moment) that controls whether or not audio is played out of the HDMI output, I believe it's under the monitor out or HDMI general settings.
jmpage2 is offline  
post #820 of 1113 Old 07-23-2012, 09:23 AM
585-645-1006
 
jdsmoothie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 42,997
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 348 Post(s)
Liked: 1317
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lastyear4gt View Post

In regards to the Passthrough, I'm having a problem with the 818. When set to cable/sat (hdmi input 1), It will passthrough the video weather the receiver is on or in standby, but no audio either way. Any suggestions?

HDMI Control (RIHD) must also be set to ON.

---------------------------------
"JD" – jd@avscience.com ; shop.avscience.com ; 585-645-1006, AVScience - AVSForum sponsor for 15 years  
Mon - Fri: 8am – 8pm EST (Sat/Sun, leave message)
Call for pricing on Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, Onkyo, Klipsch, Def Tech, Oppo, Parasound 
** Think the AVR is defective?  Reset the microprocessor 4-5 times. 
jdsmoothie is offline  
post #821 of 1113 Old 07-23-2012, 10:30 AM
Member
 
Lastyear4gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 57
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Ok thanks guys I'll try that tonight.

LG 47LG70 LCD, Onkyo TX-NR818, Energy Connoiseur CC-10, 4- CB-20's, 4 Omnimount 20.0, 2- CR-10's, 10" JBL Studio 150, PS3, Bell 9143 HD PVR
Lastyear4gt is offline  
post #822 of 1113 Old 07-23-2012, 10:40 AM
Member
 
barryaz1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
Posts: 135
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Wow! When I (probably) get my 717 (818 if I can sneak the extra $ past my wife), I may need a local coach. Seems to make my set up of my Anthem AVM 20 like child's play.
barryaz1 is offline  
post #823 of 1113 Old 07-23-2012, 12:31 PM
Newbie
 
cgtheboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 12
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
One question does the 818 have any of the same problems as the 515. I just returned one and was thinking of stepping up to the 818. Just a little worried about the brand now .
cgtheboy is offline  
post #824 of 1113 Old 07-23-2012, 08:50 PM
Member
 
Lastyear4gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 57
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Jmpage2, I'm not sure exactly what you're talking about. I looked tonight but found no such settings. If you can elaborate it would be greatly appreciated.

I did activate the RIHD as jdsmoothie suggested, I now have audio and video passthrough to the tv when the reciever is on, I'm half way there, but I still have no audio in standby mode.

Any other suggestions?

LG 47LG70 LCD, Onkyo TX-NR818, Energy Connoiseur CC-10, 4- CB-20's, 4 Omnimount 20.0, 2- CR-10's, 10" JBL Studio 150, PS3, Bell 9143 HD PVR
Lastyear4gt is offline  
post #825 of 1113 Old 07-23-2012, 09:33 PM
585-645-1006
 
jdsmoothie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 42,997
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 348 Post(s)
Liked: 1317
^^
Once the HDMI Control setting is enabled, power OFF the AVR and back ON again, then OFF again. If still no joy, then set the "HDMI Through" setting to the specific HDMI input you want to pass through while the unit is in Standby mode.

---------------------------------
"JD" – jd@avscience.com ; shop.avscience.com ; 585-645-1006, AVScience - AVSForum sponsor for 15 years  
Mon - Fri: 8am – 8pm EST (Sat/Sun, leave message)
Call for pricing on Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, Onkyo, Klipsch, Def Tech, Oppo, Parasound 
** Think the AVR is defective?  Reset the microprocessor 4-5 times. 
jdsmoothie is offline  
post #826 of 1113 Old 07-24-2012, 03:54 AM
Member
 
Lastyear4gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 57
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
I'll try cycling the power a couple more times tonight but I already tried setting the HDMI through to cab/sat input #2 and the result I got was video and no audio.

LG 47LG70 LCD, Onkyo TX-NR818, Energy Connoiseur CC-10, 4- CB-20's, 4 Omnimount 20.0, 2- CR-10's, 10" JBL Studio 150, PS3, Bell 9143 HD PVR
Lastyear4gt is offline  
post #827 of 1113 Old 07-24-2012, 05:52 AM
Member
 
Mean Gene's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 183
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Sent my 616 back to amazon yesterday. The latest firmware improved the issues, but I was not going to take the chance on it dying on me after the return period. Looking at the yamaha 671.
Mean Gene is offline  
post #828 of 1113 Old 07-24-2012, 10:25 PM
Advanced Member
 
rworne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 840
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgtheboy View Post

One question does the 818 have any of the same problems as the 515. I just returned one and was thinking of stepping up to the 818. Just a little worried about the brand now .

If the 515 was anything like the 616, then no. I have had zero issues with the 818 aside from one time out of many, many, power ups that had no HDMI. Considering how much I abuse these receivers during testing, I do not hold that against it at all. In fact, it is far more stable than models from the three previous model years.
rworne is offline  
post #829 of 1113 Old 07-27-2012, 08:04 AM
Newbie
 
TITANHAWK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I had just bought a new 60" Samsung 3D 7000, Samsung 3D blueray and had an old Onkyo I loved for the sound. The old Onkyo just didn't have the punch so I bought the Onkyo TX NR 616 because the last Onkyo I had worked flawlessly for 15 years. I loved my old one and figured the new one would be the same, boy was I wrong... At first I couldn't get it to work at all so thinking that times had changed and I was out of date I actually hired a guy who was a PRO with 27 years experience installing home systems. That's when I got the news from him that their were problems with the new Onkyos. After he left it worked fine for 1 day and I had the HDMI thing start to happen and voices wouldn't match the brand new Blueray. I tried all the setting to get it to match and it wouldn't. He came back out and reset the system and it worked that night but the next day the same thing happened. I took that one back and got a new one and called the Onkyo support team on the phone for 1 and a half hours and we finally got it running. But the next morning it wouldn't work so I called the support team again waited 40min to talk to someone, spent over an hour on the phone and tried getting the July 2012 firmware installed but it wouldn't take it and they finally told me to take it back and get another. They suggested getting a new one and before I set it up do the firmware update so back to the store I went for my third one. Guess what, the same thing happened and I called Onkyo again and after 1 hour and 30 min of waiting and not being able to get someone on the phone I finally gave up. I bought a Yamaha Aventage and set it up in minutes. It sounds awesome love the features and have had absolutley no problems with it. Onkyo was a huge disappointment and their support team suck!
MD
TITANHAWK is offline  
post #830 of 1113 Old 07-27-2012, 09:48 AM
Advanced Member
 
bodean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Chicago
Posts: 510
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 57 Post(s)
Liked: 19
I am looking at updating my aging receiver, and now have this 818 on my radars. Thanks for all the input on it. Never had an Onkyo product before. I really need a receiver that has the room calibration, but I am a bit disturbed at the poor tech support stories in here with the company. Will continue reading though.

Sony KDL65W850A 65" LED HDTV 
Denon AVR-2113CI
Polk Monitor 65T (Fronts)
Polk Monitor 50's (Rears)
Polk CS2 (Center)
Acoustech PL-200
bodean is offline  
post #831 of 1113 Old 07-27-2012, 10:41 AM
Member
 
Lastyear4gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 57
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
I Bought the 818 last weekend. After having problems right out of the box (see post 818), the audio via HDMI quit completely last night. After I got on the onkyo tech support forum, and reading a few different comments even here, it seems these new receivers are riddled with issues, many pertaining to HDMI audio/video issues. I talked to onkyo and was told to return the unit. I was talked out of the Yamaha aventage rx-a1020 for this unit. I'm now trying to decide weather to try one more unit or return it and go to the Yamaha. I'm leaning towards the Yamaha. It's a shame, this looked like a kick ass unit for the price.

LG 47LG70 LCD, Onkyo TX-NR818, Energy Connoiseur CC-10, 4- CB-20's, 4 Omnimount 20.0, 2- CR-10's, 10" JBL Studio 150, PS3, Bell 9143 HD PVR
Lastyear4gt is offline  
post #832 of 1113 Old 07-27-2012, 12:10 PM
Senior Member
 
colleycol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Seattle Area
Posts: 418
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Would replacing my Integra 9.8 be a step up for those that would know for the 818?

I am a little worried about the issues I am hearing.

_________________________________________________
My Gear:
JVC RS4810, Prismasonic HD6000M anamorphic lens, Screen Excellence 4K 115 inch wide
Lumagen Radiance 2021
Onkyo 818, Emotiva Amp
B&W CT700 Series Speakers, (2) PowerSound Audio XS30s
Custom HTPC running Mediabrowser, 12TB Server for storage
...
colleycol is offline  
post #833 of 1113 Old 07-27-2012, 10:53 PM
Member
 
JackBarry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 92
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
I replaced my Onkyo 885 which is the same as the Integra 9.8 and the difference was more than significant. I use the 818 as a preamp and I couldn't be more happy with the results. The cost of the 818 makes the pre-amps prior to Audyssey 32 obsolete or overpriced on the used market!

t
JackBarry is offline  
post #834 of 1113 Old 07-28-2012, 10:18 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Tesla1856's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 1,268
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 50

Man, I count two 616s and one 818 that just got returned on this page alone.

 

This is not looking good, but I'll read the thread from the beginning now. Looking for a 717 or 818 to replace my 607.


Tesla1856 is offline  
post #835 of 1113 Old 07-29-2012, 04:58 PM
Member
 
JackBarry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 92
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
How many purchased that were not returned and not reported on this page?
JackBarry is offline  
post #836 of 1113 Old 07-29-2012, 05:05 PM
AVS Special Member
 
yadfgp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Meridian, Idaho
Posts: 2,044
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked: 36
FWIW I've had my 818 for about 6 weeks now and I have had no issues with it. Best AVR I've ever owned. biggrin.gif

1 Mitsubishi WD-82642 82" TV
1 Onkyo TX-NR929 11.4 setup
2 Emotiva XPA-5's
1 Emotiva XPA-100
1 Definitive Technology CLR 3000 (Center)
2 Definitive Technology BP2004TL's (Mains)
2 Definitive Technology ProMonitor 1000's (Heights)
6 Definitive Technology BPX's (Rears Wides Sides)
4 CHT VS-18.1 Subs
yadfgp is online now  
post #837 of 1113 Old 07-30-2012, 01:31 PM
Member
 
TeddyGVT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: SF
Posts: 88
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Nothing has changed for me since I last checked in. I've had my 515 for almost 4 months now and the many firmware updates (it's almost reminded me of the PS3 with how frequent they were for a while), all of the issues have been resolved. I haven't had a single problem in a long time.
TeddyGVT is offline  
post #838 of 1113 Old 07-30-2012, 07:52 PM
Advanced Member
 
Patrick Murphy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 788
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 42
Almost two months with the 818, all firmwares loaded and only one brief sync issue a couple weeks ago that has me now waiting for the 'hdmi start up' screen to vanish before I turn on anything else. No problems since. But, I only use it with a Mits pj, Directv box and a Blu-Ray player. I have it sitting on the floor supported by two blocks of 4 inch thick wood and it gets lots of air. Runs real cool even after extended periods. BTW, has anyone ever seen the dual fans activate?

The most feature loaded and best sounding receiver that I've ever had. Couldn't be happier.
Patrick Murphy is offline  
post #839 of 1113 Old 07-30-2012, 09:06 PM
Member
 
runcliffyrun's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 44
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
I've had my 818 for a week now, and its been unreal. No problems at all. The SQ is beyond belief.

I upgraded from a Pioneer 919 and was using an Antimode 8033s to deal with the sub eq, but I've taken the Antimode out of the link now. Not needed at all. The XT32 is incredible - the subwoofer (a SVS PC12-NSD) has never sounded so good.

The other thing I LOVE about this 818 is the Dynamic EQ. The speakers seem more alive at EVERY volume . I am a very happy customer. Touch wood.....

Behringer B212XL (x3), Axiom QS8 (x2), SVS PC12 NSD, PB1000 (x2) . Onkyo TX-NR818. Mini DSP 2x4. Sony BDP-S370. Samsung PS50B650 . Epson 8350 Projector, Grandview pulldown 92" screen, Aura Bass Shakers (x3).
runcliffyrun is offline  
post #840 of 1113 Old 07-31-2012, 12:16 PM
Newbie
 
Darren J's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Epworth, South Yorkshire. UK
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I'm the same, I've had mine now for the past month and it is by far the best I have had. I initially had the denon 2310 then upgraded due to problems to a Yamaha, (can't remember the model). Didn't
like it so bought the "What HIFI" winner , the Onkyo 808. It initially worked well with my Panasonic TV as per thread 839. Then developed various faults. I am a perfectionist and as such Richersounds must hate me! as they kept replacing systems until i had the right one. So far the 818 has been absolutely first class and sounds amazing both with Dolby Digital programs and music. I would definitely suggest to any one thinking of getting one. Persevere! The 818 is worth it.
The one thing i would say is that Onkyo need to stop concentrating on new models every five minutes and just make the ones they do already have even better! Remember we are your loyal customers who can't really afford to upgrade with faulty models every few months! We need systems that work. Cheers. Feel better now!
Darren J is offline  
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Tags
Onkyo Tx Nr717 , Onkyo Tx Nr616 , Onkyo Tx Nr818
Gear in this thread

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off