How can I take full advantage of DTS NEO:X and use all 11 channels? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 61 Old 04-17-2012, 02:52 PM - Thread Starter
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This is very frustrating. I am finally in the market for a new receiver and there seems to be no receivers on the market today that can simultaneously output all 11 channels of the NEO-X algorithm. Denon 4810 and 4311 can output all 11 channels of Audyssey DSX (albeit with external amplification), but not even that solution is available for NEO X. Whats the point in having NEOX if there are no AVRs that can exercise it to its full potential?!

Please, lets not turn this thread into a quality vs quantity argument. From everything I have read about the immersion capabilities of 11 channel setups, I am convinced this is the way I want to go. But this does bring up the question where those people who have heard NEO:X in 11.1 , 11.2 , 11.3 , 11.X form: where did they hear it, and how did they hear it if there are no receivers that can output it?

Please, someone point me in the right direction and tell me I am wrong and that there is a way to achieve true DTS 11 channel capability.
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post #2 of 61 Old 04-17-2012, 03:33 PM
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^^^

to the best of my knowledge, nothing will...

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post #3 of 61 Old 04-17-2012, 04:34 PM
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Wow, talk about zero WAF... 11 channels!!

Hey, I was just up in Owasso. Trail's End isn't a bad place to get a cheap plate of BBQ!
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post #4 of 61 Old 04-18-2012, 02:20 AM
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Only DTS Neo:x AVR currently on the market that I am aware of is the Onkyo 3009, but it won't do true 11.x surround even with external amps... only ones that do that are the Denon 4810 and 4311, both before Neo:x.
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post #5 of 61 Old 04-18-2012, 05:05 AM
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Currently there are no receivers that decode 11.2 Neo:X, but I suspect there will be before the end of this year.

Onkyo recently released specs on the 818 and it does 9.2 neo:x where you can use either the highs or wides but not both at the same time. If their current model year mirrors their past years, they'll have 3 models above this that traditionally have had 2 more channels than the 800 series. The 1000, 3000 and 5000. I think it likely that one or more of those models will have 11.2 Neo:x.

Denon is supposedly going to release a successor to the 4311 either late this year or early next. I think the model is 4520. I haven't heard details, but it seems like another good candidate for 11.2 Neo:x.

This is all speculation on my part, so I may very well be wrong about all this.

DTS must have their own internal electronics department or work closely with companies that do. My hunch is they slap together prototypes to test things prior to releasing specs. Also, it wouldn't be much of a stretch for Onkyo to add a couple of amps to a 818 and make a few software changes to output 11.2 for testing.
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post #6 of 61 Old 04-19-2012, 06:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the replies guys.. Guess Ill wait to see what the next lineup of Onkyos and Denons bring to the market. I am building my theater now, so i still have a little time before its done, but I dont want to have all the speakers in place with no way to use them simultaneously. Hopefully the market will catch up o the DTS technology soon.
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post #7 of 61 Old 04-19-2012, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chevychad View Post

Thanks for the replies guys.. Guess Ill wait to see what the next lineup of Onkyos and Denons bring to the market. I am building my theater now, so i still have a little time before its done, but I dont want to have all the speakers in place with no way to use them simultaneously. Hopefully the market will catch up o the DTS technology soon.

How do you even know you'll like what (synthesized) 11.1 sounds like?

Ever thought of using the money for 11 mediocre speakers and just buying 5 really good ones?
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post #8 of 61 Old 04-19-2012, 06:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post


How do you even know you'll like what (synthesized) 11.1 sounds like?

Ever thought of using the money for 11 mediocre speakers and just buying 5 really good ones?

No, that thought never crossed my mind at all!

Quote:
Originally Posted by chevychad View Post

Please, lets not turn this thread into a quality vs quantity argument. From everything I have read about the immersion capabilities of 11 channel setups, I am convinced this is the way I want to go...

And who said i was going to buy mediocre speakers??
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post #9 of 61 Old 04-19-2012, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

How do you even know you'll like what (synthesized) 11.1 sounds like?

or that he'll like neo better than dsx?

and so on...

however, he's already made up his mind... unfortunately for him, the product he desires doesn't currently exist...

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post #10 of 61 Old 04-19-2012, 07:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chevychad View Post

And who said i was going to buy mediocre speakers??

OK, how about instead of 11 great speakers, 5 "blow-you-mind-makes-you-forget-about-fake-surround" incredible speakers?
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post #11 of 61 Old 04-19-2012, 07:10 AM - Thread Starter
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I dont know that I will like NEO better than DSX, but I am hoping that whatever receiver comes out with NEOx will also have DSX capability. I can then make up my mind at that point and decide which one I prefer. But I would at least like the option to be able to see for myself.

And Sam- I see your point, but you are not seeing mine. If I wanted 5 speakers, I could keep the receiver I have now. But that is not what I want. How do you know that 5 mind blowing speakers is better than 11 great speakers? I doubt you do. Lets not derail this thread any further please..

Once an AVR comes out with the capabilities I desire, please someone post it up here. And if I find one, Ill post it here as well.
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post #12 of 61 Old 04-19-2012, 07:47 AM
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I'm setting a home theater for new construction and am wiring for 11 speakers. All things being equal, 11 will sound better than 5.

My plan is to use 3 good speakers for the fronts and relatively inexpensive speakers for the surrounds, heights and wides.

I'm keeping an eye out for new 11.2 receivers. I want 11.2 Neo:X too.
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post #13 of 61 Old 04-19-2012, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

I'm setting a home theater for new construction and am wiring for 11 speakers. All things being equal, 11 will sound better than 5. [. . .] I'm keeping an eye out for new 11.2 receivers. I want 11.2 Neo:X too.

It's worth remembering that the first version of DTS Neo:X demo'd at CES 2009 had pairs of both front and rear heights . . . but NO front wide speakers. It will be interesting to see if the forthcoming DTS 'merger' with SRS influences future overhead|rear sound thinking.

If you are currently doing new construction, you might consider running speaker wire for a few additional locations from the full SMPTE2036-3-2008 configuration (link), "just in case". After all, emplacing extra cable 'now' is cheap versus 'later' post-closure in-wall rewiring!

It's hard to argue that with the notion that 9|10|11|12|13|14, and even 22 speakers done well will sound better than 5 can achieve . . . unfortunately the practicalities and economics of the current CE mass market make implementing such configurations at home 'difficult'. Nonetheless, I remain hopeful that, e.g., 13.x will become feasible . . . in the sometime near future.


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post #14 of 61 Old 04-19-2012, 10:58 AM
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I too am very interested in 11.x speaker set up. Currently have the Onkyo 805 which I love and have no desire to upgrade unless it is 11.x.

I really enjoy the 'sound' of the onkyo over comparable pioneer, yamaha, denon that preceded it. I do use it only as a pre pro with an ext amp for the 5 main channels and use internal amps for the backsurrounds. I know the backsurrounds don't contribute much on a lot of scenes but in action/scifi/horror they can really add to the immersion effect. I won't sacrifice them for wide or heights, and the technology exists to run all 11, we just have to wait until manufacturers think they can profit from it before it becomes more available beyond Denon. The Denon 4311 replacement was discussed a few months ago to continue to offer the 11.x, but surmised that it was going to be >$3K range. I'm hanging back for the Onkyo product myself, and very likely less than $3K.
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post #15 of 61 Old 04-19-2012, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

Currently there are no receivers that decode 11.2 Neo:X, but I suspect there will be before the end of this year.

Onkyo recently released specs on the 818 and it does 9.2 neo:x where you can use either the highs or wides but not both at the same time. If their current model year mirrors their past years, they'll have 3 models above this that traditionally have had 2 more channels than the 800 series. The 1000, 3000 and 5000. I think it likely that one or more of those models will have 11.2 Neo:x.

Denon is supposedly going to release a successor to the 4311 either late this year or early next. I think the model is 4520. I haven't heard details, but it seems like another good candidate for 11.2 Neo:x.

This is all speculation on my part, so I may very well be wrong about all this.

DTS must have their own internal electronics department or work closely with companies that do. My hunch is they slap together prototypes to test things prior to releasing specs. Also, it wouldn't be much of a stretch for Onkyo to add a couple of amps to a 818 and make a few software changes to output 11.2 for testing.


Yep (re Onkyo's upper models) but none thus far have offered 11.X playback so I don't necessarily think it's a lock that any will this year, although I personally believe that it's all-but mandatory at this point...at least in your flagship AVR/PREPRO.

Here's to hoping that changes this year.

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post #16 of 61 Old 04-19-2012, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chevychad View Post

From everything I have read about the immersion capabilities of 11 channel setups, I am convinced this is the way I want to go.

You might want to check out the Sherwood R-972 threads; Trinnov creates a great soundfield as well as XLNT EQ.

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post #17 of 61 Old 04-19-2012, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

Ever thought of using the money for 11 mediocre speakers and just buying 5 really good ones?

One pair of surrounds, no matter how "really good" they are, can't be in 3 locations simultaneously: at your sides AND behind you AND above you, all that the same time.

Priorities vary, but IF someone wants rear-vs-side separation in the surround field, then a single pair of surrounds is not going to accomplish that. And if they further want to give the impression of height and provide width imaging that remains stable for multiple listeners, then there's no way that a 5-speaker layout will get you close.

Of course, if that level of directionality and envelopment is not your priority, then the budget for 11 speakers will be better spend on 5 higher quality speakers. But lets not pretend that 2 surround speakers, no matter how good they are, can yield the precise localization and imaging stability and wrap-around envelopment of 8 surround speakers (wides, heights, sides, rears).

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post #18 of 61 Old 04-19-2012, 01:56 PM
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But lets not pretend that 2 surround speakers, no matter how good they are, can yield the precise localization and imaging stability and wrap-around envelopment of 8 surround speakers (wides, heights, sides, rears).

So what do we call it when two surround speakers are placed perfectly, and are so good that you are often confused if sound effects are part of the soundtrack or really in the room? Vs. 4 weaker speakers where it sounds like tin cans emitting distracting foley effects?
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post #19 of 61 Old 04-19-2012, 02:05 PM - Thread Starter
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*IF* that is the case, Sam, i would still have the ability to only use 5 speakers. You can always use 5 speakers with an 11.x capable receiver. You can never use 11 with only a 5.x capable receiver.

Id like to have the option of using whatever configuration I personally find most appealing to me.

But I highly doubt I would prefer the 5.x setup over 11.x. And I doubt it will sound like tin cans lol..
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post #20 of 61 Old 04-19-2012, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

Ever thought of using the money for 11 mediocre speakers and just buying 5 really good ones?

The strategy I've tried to espouse for the past few decades is to "purchase only 'really good speakers' by waiting until they are 'priced like mediocre speakers' because of store closures, model discontinuance, excess inventory sales, etc." Of course my definitions of 'really good' and 'mediocre' speakers are probably different from your own . . . and I wasn't always quite so diligent as I should have been . . . but at least I no longer have to worry that I won't have enough speakers on hand to implement whatever is the next 'extremist' home theater speaker configuration!

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post #21 of 61 Old 04-19-2012, 02:47 PM
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So what do we call it when two surround speakers are placed perfectly, and are so good that you are often confused if sound effects are part of the soundtrack or really in the room?

"Perfectly"? I'd call that a healthy fantasy.

What two locations in the room will provide for multiple listeners stable imaging outside the L/R mains AND directly at your sides AND behind you AND above?

Sanjay
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post #22 of 61 Old 04-21-2012, 05:43 PM
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If you are currently doing new construction, you might consider running speaker wire for a few additional locations

Too late now. They put up drywall today.

I thought about doing that, but I don't know what future configurations will be supported, so I didn't know where to run wires. I think 11 speakers and 2 subs will be good enough for a while.
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post #23 of 61 Old 05-02-2012, 03:05 PM
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I have been using a self created 11.2 sound system (main speakers) with 2 to 3 used for height depending on my personal ideas about how the sound should be steered. I have used Polk RT2000 as my main Speakers and RT3000? as my center. I have also used timber matched Polks for the heights and right now am using bi-polar speakers for the front heights to see if I get a more immersive sense of sound. I have been using SRS Circle Surround decoders in this setup for about 10 years. My only conclusion (I am still experimenting) is, you need a great audio source i.e. blu-ray audio master otherwise, lousy sound source, distortion etc. output to all speakers including speaker damage. Also, uncompressed audio is more likely to have those steering cues that any decoder will need to extract sound to the speaker you designate. In any case, I feel that unless some of the new technologies have some sort of real sound processing and audio adjustment, your going to get the best benefit only if you this in a large room although I have read about using micro speaker arrays being used (this maybe a better idea than the full range speakers I use) with multiple subwoofers for base. Oh yes, the 2 more speakers are for center side L/RT. I hope that DTS continues with SRS smart steering technology which would allow you to use as many speakers as you want and the system would configure itself to your setup and send different sounds to all those speakers for a holosonic effect.
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post #24 of 61 Old 05-13-2012, 12:57 PM
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I have been running an 11.3 system for a while now for movies, switching to Pure Direct for music.

I can't say I noticed much difference having the height speakers in a lot of movies but I did think the height was very noticeable when I watched Star Wars Ep IV's opening scene.

Wide speakers do make a big difference though.

I am using a Denon AVR4810 (so no Neo:X) with 11 external channels feeding Thiel CS3.7 floor standers for L/R and timbre matched MCS1 for centre plus Powerpoints for surround/wide/height duties. Subs are 2 Thiel SS2s complementing the front L/R and a JL Audio f113.

So like the OP, I am also waiting for a full 11 channel DTS Neo:X and DSX compatible AVR/prepro. I really thought the upgraded Denon A1HDC was going to be it
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post #25 of 61 Old 05-13-2012, 02:04 PM
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I'm actually considering giving up my Surround Backs for neo-X (Wide+High);
anyone else go that route and have comments?
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post #26 of 61 Old 05-13-2012, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by mcsoul View Post

I'm actually considering giving up my Surround Backs for neo-X (Wide+High);
anyone else go that route and have comments?

I wouldn't. The surround backs are discrete and I wouldn't dare give those up for ones that are derived. That's just me though

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #27 of 61 Old 05-13-2012, 02:24 PM
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I wouldn't. The surround backs are discrete and I wouldn't dare give those up for ones that are derived. That's just me though

That's a good point.
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post #28 of 61 Old 05-13-2012, 07:36 PM
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I wouldn't. The surround backs are discrete and I wouldn't dare give those up for ones that are derived. That's just me though

I'm about to do just that, after being fixated for years on how cool rear surround effects could be.

The operative word is "could"; it just hardly ever seems top happen.

With DPL IIx and even with the few 7.1 soundtracks, I never hear much from the backs.

And if I did, how often would that be?

OTOH, an improved front soundstage can be appreciated for almost every scene.

The above doesn't apply if you have Logic 7, which I found to make effective use of the back speakers.

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post #29 of 61 Old 05-13-2012, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcsoul View Post

I'm actually considering giving up my Surround Backs for neo-X (Wide+High);
anyone else go that route and have comments?

I have an 11.2 setup but my AVR (Onkyo 1009) can only drive 9 at one time. I run heights+wides for 5.1 content and wides+rears for discrete 7.1 content.

I really love the wides, they expand the front soundstage dramatically.

BTW I prefer DSX to Neo:X
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post #30 of 61 Old 05-13-2012, 10:33 PM
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To clarify... The Onkyo 1009 has DTS neo:x (not the 3009 like I had previously posted)... So there is an AVR that has it, I thought I had heard/read that. Unfortunately, I'm not sure it will do full 11.x when paired with external amps, could you enlighten me?

(I have also wondered... the 4311 does 11.x with external amps... are those amps assignable?)

The work SRS has been doing with sound perceptions and speaker useage is amazing by some accounts, revolutionary by others... quite exciting/cutting edge type stuff with results that speak for themselves. How to make this available to the mass market... combining with DTS makes perfect sense. This could push us towards the full 22.x set up, and possibly without that many speakers actually in use (cosidereing what SRS has been able to do with a single pair of speakers!).

5.1 great, 7.2 sweet, 9.2 awesome, 11.3... can't wait to find out!
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