Yamaha RX-A710 Composite Video to HDMI Conversion Problem - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 8 Old 04-25-2012, 02:10 PM - Thread Starter
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When using this analog conversion, all my video is washed out looking because the black levels are not being converted correctly. The IRE is off. The receiver is scaling the black level as a 0 IRE when analog video uses 7.5 IRE as the black level. So when the receiver sees a 7.5 IRE Black level, it's 7.5 IRE over the receiver's reference black level, and therefore produces a brighter black or grey which washes out the picture.

I've delt with this years ago when DVD Recorders came out and Toshiba kept using a 0 IRE reference level for Black which was incorrect for the US NTSC format, but correct for the "Japanese" NTSC format.

The black level problems have since been straightened out for years and now I have this problem in a new product.

Yamaha is already looking at it and has escalated it to higher tech support/engineering. I would like to know a bit sooner since I'm within a 14 day return window plus I would like to confirm with actual owners if they have this black level problem when converting analog composite video to HDMI.

Thanks for the help in figuring out if this is a true hardware defect or a design defect. It will help with my case with Yamaha.

Thanks for the help.
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post #2 of 8 Old 04-25-2012, 03:30 PM
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Have you tried different hdmi inputs? I get this on mine, but only with hdmi 2 input, all others are fine. I use deep color on hdmi as a workover to correct it on that input. I always assumed that yamaha possibly designed it this way, though I never called them nor found anything in the owners manual.
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post #3 of 8 Old 04-25-2012, 03:34 PM
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I think it's fair to say that AVRs in this price range have very bad A-D video conversion. You're always better off passing analog straight through to your display. You'll need to spend a lot more money for decent video processing.

To answer your question more directly, if this is an issue for you then returning the 710 is probably the way to go.
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post #4 of 8 Old 04-25-2012, 04:13 PM
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Composite video? How good can you make composite video look? Is this a VCR?

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post #5 of 8 Old 04-26-2012, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

I think it's fair to say that AVRs in this price range have very bad A-D video conversion. You're always better off passing analog straight through to your display. You'll need to spend a lot more money for decent video processing.

To answer your question more directly, if this is an issue for you then returning the 710 is probably the way to go.

The problem I'm having even appears in pass thru mode.
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post #6 of 8 Old 04-26-2012, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDEaston View Post

The problem I'm having even appears in pass thru mode.

You seem to have a different problem. The original poster has a problem with composite inputs, not HDMI.

My Yahama receiver (HTR-8063/RX-A1000) doesn't do a good job of converting analogue video to HDMI, so I just connected my TV with a component cable as well HDMI. The result of going source -> composite/S-Video/component cable -> receiver -> component cable -> TV looks much better.

The Yahama receivers with a dedicated scaler chip (RX-A2010/RX-A3010) apparently do a much better job of HDMI upscaling, but on the cheaper models I'd avoid it where possible.
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post #7 of 8 Old 04-28-2012, 04:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks everyone for the help. I have been in contact with Yamaha Tier 2 Technical Support. They stated that when they hook up their lab A710 with a composite signal then output through a HDMI, they get no brighter blacks and in fact have a better picture quality going from a composite input to a HDMI output to the TV, than from a composite input to a composite output to the TV. So they definitely said my conversion circuit is defective.

I also have started to see a few other issues as well. When I use a composite input that goes through a HDMI output to the TV, now I get occasional HDCP incompatibility where the receiver error screen says to use component outputs. This is only with the analog composite inputs as if the conversion is also screwing up the HDCP signal in the HDMI connection.

Also with all HDMI control turned off in the TV and the Receiver, I'm still getting some type of control when I shouldn't. My cable box HDMI audio output to the Receiver is getting shut off momentarily when I shut my TV Off, then the signal comes back. I listen to the music channels so I do use my cable box without the TV on. With all control circuits off, my TV turning off shouldn't shut off the HDMI signal from the cable box.

Once again this receiver when converting a composite signal to a HDMI, washes out the blacks and picture, while going from composite input to composite output to the TV is perferct.

Now I found these issues above along with the corrupted black levels from analog to digital conversion.

I also have a problem with my cable box, a Motorola DCX3400, which seems to be a problem with most A/V receiver. It changes a preset or native resolution to a pushed 720P resolution for 16:9 content and 480P for 4:3 content. IMO, this isn't HD but mid-def so I'm pretty upset about this since it doesn't happen running the cable box straight to the TV. BUT as I said, I have found tons of information on the internet about this being a problem with the Motorola box. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a solution. So now I'm losing my HD picture quality because I'm using this receiver, regardless if it's the fault of the receiver or not.

I'm willing to give this another try with either another A710 or a Denon receiver, but I want to make sure from everyone here who owns this model or even a RX-V671 similar model, that this isn't just a design flaw with this receiver. Everyone has been helpful but doesn't seem like anyone has actually commented directly on my problem. So with the additional problems I found, I'm also wondering if these are common or just a problem with my individual receiver.

If this is just a design flaw with the Yamaha receiver, and I can't get the dealer to come down to a price I can afford on a Denon AVR-2312CI, I'll just go back to my Denon AVR-3803.

Thanks again everyone for the help.
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post #8 of 8 Old 04-28-2012, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSchoolMETAL View Post

Thanks everyone for the help. I have been in contact with Yamaha Tier 2 Technical Support. They stated that when they hook up their lab A710 with a composite signal then output through a HDMI, they get no brighter blacks and in fact have a better picture quality going from a composite input to a HDMI output to the TV, than from a composite input to a composite output to the TV. So they definitely said my conversion circuit is defective.

Sounds like BS to me. How does running composite through the receiver compare to running composite directly to the TV in your own eyes? They should appear to be identical, but this response suggests that going through the receiver somehow noticibly degrades the signal. On the other hand, the HDMI scaling done by Yamaha lower end models without dedicated scaling chips (anything less than RX-A20x0) isn't generally regarded as being all that good.

Quote:


I also have started to see a few other issues as well. When I use a composite input that goes through a HDMI output to the TV, now I get occasional HDCP incompatibility where the receiver error screen says to use component outputs. This is only with the analog composite inputs as if the conversion is also screwing up the HDCP signal in the HDMI connection.

This seems to be a flaw. The receiver doesn't need to use HDCP at all when using a unprotected analogue source. It might be trying to estabilish an encrypted connection anyways so you can quickly swich between protected and unprotected sources, but it shouldn't complain that it can't.

Quote:


Also with all HDMI control turned off in the TV and the Receiver, I'm still getting some type of control when I shouldn't. My cable box HDMI output to the Receiver is getting shut momentarily when I shut my TV Off, then the signal comes back. I listen to the music channels so I do use my cable box without the TV on. With all control circuits off, my TV turning off shouldn't shut off the HDMI signal from the cable box.

This is actually more or less required behaviour according the HDMI spec and it has (almost) nothing to HDMI CEC (HDMI Control). HDMI requires any device with an HDMI to provide whats called an EDID, or a discription of the capabilities of the device, to the source device. Your receiver dynamically creates an EDID by combining its own capibilities (eg. DTS HD) with that of the TVs (eg. 1080p). When you turn off the TV then the EDID changes to the just capabilities of the receiver itself.

Whenever a device's EDID changes the device is required to simulate the removal and reinsertion of the HDMI cable. It does this by breifly pullling down the "Hot-Plug Detect" line which is normally held high to indicate the cable is plugged in. This lets the source device know it should ask for a new EDID. While there's no requirement that source device stop transmitting when this happens, many devices will because it looks like the cable has been physically disconnected.
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