Logic7 beats Dolby - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 43 Old 05-01-2012, 05:24 AM - Thread Starter
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After a lot of trial and errors with my setup, i have finally reached a setup that pleases my ears. And it is very unexpected.

I have a hk avr 2600 powering clr 2002 fronts with bp8040 surrounds.

The setup that i love is to convert the audio input to the avr from dolby digital to 2 channel 48khz pcm and apply logic7 movie mode surround. Amazing.

I also have Dolby volume = OFF, and mp3 enhancer = ON
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post #2 of 43 Old 05-01-2012, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

After a lot of trial and errors with my setup, i have finally reached a setup that pleases my ears. And it is very unexpected.

I have a hk avr 2600 powering clr 2002 fronts with bp8040 surrounds.

The setup that i love is to convert the audio input to the avr from dolby digital to 2 channel 48khz pcm and apply logic7 movie mode surround. Amazing.

I also have Dolby volume = OFF, and mp3 enhancer = ON



Throwing away the discrete channels and then regenerating the surround, center, and lfe?

Sounds like an absolute mess to me, but if you like it....
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post #3 of 43 Old 05-01-2012, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

After a lot of trial and errors with my setup, i have finally reached a setup that pleases my ears. And it is very unexpected.

I have a hk avr 2600 powering clr 2002 fronts with bp8040 surrounds.

The setup that i love is to convert the audio input to the avr from dolby digital to 2 channel 48khz pcm and apply logic7 movie mode surround. Amazing.

I also have Dolby volume = OFF, and mp3 enhancer = ON

As long as you're happy with your setup, that's all that matters. Congrats!

Afro GT
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post #4 of 43 Old 05-01-2012, 07:29 AM
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Is it throwing away the channels, or just downmixing them? Is the surround information matrixed into the downmixed stereo signal?

In which case, if it is, seems like going back 15 years ago or so, to the days of Pro Logic decoding.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #5 of 43 Old 05-01-2012, 07:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post


Throwing away the discrete channels and then regenerating the surround, center, and lfe?

Sounds like an absolute mess to me, but if you like it....

I know. I am surprised myself. It was only by accident that i hit on this setup. Totally unintentional. But hey, i am loving the Logic7 movie processing over the DD and even more than Dolby Prologic IIx movie or music mode. To me the dolby prologic IIx almost sounds like 7 mono channels. The Logic7 is adding some fuzzy imaging to it that is pleasing to my ears and brain
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post #6 of 43 Old 05-01-2012, 07:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

Is it throwing away the channels, or just downmixing them? Is the surround information matrixed into the downmixed stereo signal?

In which case, if it is, seems like going back 15 years ago or so, to the days of Pro Logic decoding.

The information is all there. I did compare back and forth. So in essence it is being matrixed down to 2 pcm channels and then remixed to a 7.1 surround sound.
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post #7 of 43 Old 05-01-2012, 07:39 AM
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Happy for you.I will try it with my old Lexicon,perhaps.
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post #8 of 43 Old 05-01-2012, 07:42 AM - Thread Starter
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I have had a Yamaha receiver earlier with normal Dolby prologic and extended modes. They never sounded as good as the Logic7.
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post #9 of 43 Old 05-01-2012, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

To me the dolby prologic IIx almost sounds like 7 mono channels.

That's exactly what it is. Every channel is a mono channel.
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post #10 of 43 Old 05-01-2012, 08:03 AM
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Harman Kardon has provided Logic 7 in their AVRs for the last 10 years, there are (2) versions depending upon native audio DSP. The lower segment using the Cirrus Logic DSP deliver 5.1 or 7.1 from a 2 CH PCM or analog stream, while the higher segment that use the TI can deliver Logic 7 5.1 or 7.1 from virtually any digital stream be it PCM, Dolby or DTS.

Additionally it is found in many OE auto systems as well, a very distinct and capable playback mode.. A reliable Harman source has told me there are over 10 million Logic 7 decoders shipped to the market..


Just my $0.02...
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post #11 of 43 Old 05-01-2012, 08:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5seonds View Post


That's exactly what it is. Every channel is a mono channel.

I guess that is why i am loving the Logic7. There is some "magic" that is being done to please the brain. At least my brain
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post #12 of 43 Old 05-01-2012, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Harman Kardon has provided Logic 7 in their AVRs for the last 10 years, there are (2) versions depending upon native audio DSP. The lower segment using the Cirrus Logic DSP deliver 5.1 or 7.1 from a 2 CH PCM or analog stream, while the higher segment that use the TI can deliver Logic 7 5.1 or 7.1 from virtually any digital stream be it PCM, Dolby or DTS.

Additionally it is found in many OE auto systems as well, a very distinct and capable playback mode.. A reliable Harman source has told me there are over 10 million Logic 7 decoders shipped to the market..


Just my $0.02...

Which chipset does the AVR 2600 have? I know you're the expert on HK's.

Edit: Nevermind looks like the 2600 and 3600 use the Cirrus® CS 49700

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post #13 of 43 Old 05-01-2012, 08:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok. Here is caveat. My observations are only valid for TV programming & Netflix serials which have DD audio tracks. I have yet to A/B this with a real movie such as Transformers et al. I will do that soon enough during this week and update this thread with my feedback.

To emphasize, with Logic7 the TV dialogues are way better in clarity and more dynamic than straight DD. Additionally the surround information is more smoother and subtle.
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post #14 of 43 Old 05-01-2012, 08:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post


Which chipset does the AVR 2600 have? I know you're the expert on HK's.

Edit: Nevermind looks like the 2600 and 3600 use the Cirrus® CS 49700

Right u are. The 2600 has no option to apply Logic7 to straight DD signal. Only 2 channel.
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post #15 of 43 Old 05-01-2012, 08:21 AM
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yeah, that's the same as my old AVR 325.

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post #16 of 43 Old 05-01-2012, 08:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

Ok. Here is caveat. My observations are only valid for TV programming & Netflix serials which have DD audio tracks. I have yet to A/B this with a real movie such as Transformers et al. I will do that soon enough during this week and update this thread with my feedback.

To emphasize, with Logic7 the TV dialogues are way better in clarity and more dynamic than straight DD. Additionally the surround information is more smoother and subtle.

A classic example of this is "The Voice". With straight DD play, the vocals are quite muffled and unclear. But if i convert to PCM and feed it to the avr-2600 and apply Logic7 Movie mode, it is wonderfully crisp and clear.
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post #17 of 43 Old 05-01-2012, 08:42 AM
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Logic7 is great I miss it, now that I have an integra.
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post #18 of 43 Old 05-01-2012, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

A classic example of this is "The Voice". With straight DD play, the vocals are quite muffled and unclear. But if i convert to PCM and feed it to the avr-2600 it is wonderfully crisp and clear.

Could be an effective EQ with your setup, making dialog more clear.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #19 of 43 Old 05-01-2012, 08:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

Could be an effective EQ with your setup, making dialog more clear.

Yup. That is what I am thinking too. But I have no information on how Logic7 operates so I am only guessing at this point.

However, I will tell you this that it is dynamically EQ-ing to make Vocals clearer. That is for sure.
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post #20 of 43 Old 05-01-2012, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

To emphasize, with Logic7 the TV dialogues are way better in clarity and more dynamic than straight DD.

For compatibility purposes, TV audio often seems to spread dialog across L, C, R of the 5.1 channel Dolby Digital track.

AJ
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post #21 of 43 Old 05-01-2012, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Harman Kardon has provided Logic 7 in their AVRs for the last 10 years, there are (2) versions depending upon native audio DSP. The lower segment using the Cirrus Logic DSP deliver 5.1 or 7.1 from a 2 CH PCM or analog stream, while the higher segment that use the TI can deliver Logic 7 5.1 or 7.1 from virtually any digital stream be it PCM, Dolby or DTS.

Always wondered how ''proprietary'' the ces7.1 dsp mode on my cary 11a was thanks M Code This was how it was described on the older cary6; though this had a cs49400 chip not the 49700 the 11a has like HK models .

Quote:


Finally, it does not support proprietary matrix decoding formats such as Lexicon's Logic 7 or SRS Circle Surround. However, the presence of buttons on the front panel and remote control labelled "CES 7.1" suggests that initially Cary may have originally planned to include support for 'Cirrus Extra Surround 7.1' (a proprietary Cirrus Logic specific matrix expansion algorithm).

Thankfully it does a great job on lossy dd2.0 ota signals ; too bad the aus version of 'the voice' is only dd2.0 .. why its not repeated on the 5.1 hd channel only the programmers know
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post #22 of 43 Old 05-01-2012, 09:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post

For compatibility purposes, TV audio often seems to spread dialog across L, C, R of the 5.1 channel Dolby Digital track.

AJ

And the Logic7 is gathering all of those up and directing them to the Center Channel. It makes sense now.
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post #23 of 43 Old 05-01-2012, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

The information is all there. I did compare back and forth. So in essence it is being matrixed down to 2 pcm channels and then remixed to a 7.1 surround sound.

at face value, to some it looks like going backwards but....

I can attest to the fact that with a few DVD's I own, namely the MI-5 BBC series and several others, that using the 2 ch track and adding PLIIx does produce far superior surround sound than the encoded 5.1 track I found this true with the original ADV Farscape DVD's, too.

On the MI-5 discs, there was hardly any sound in the surrounds, which really surprised me since the HD version of the show on TV using basic Dolby Digital had more subwoofer activity and a lot more discrete & enveloping soundfield than any of the DVD's.

I attributed that to poorly engineered 5.1 tracks on the discs. So I tried adding PLIIx to the 2 channel tracks and it sounded far better.

So before criticizing your practice as going backwards or inferior to a 5.1 track, I think it all depends on how the recording engineer decided to use the surrounds when creating the 5.1 track.

For Blu-ray or other HD sources, though, I have not done it your way, nor probably will I I do add PLIIx matrixing but always start with the hi-rez 5.1 audio track.

Call it being lazy or sloppy on the part of the recording engineer, but I do think some movies & TV shows have surrounds added as an afterthought with no attention to how they may be used to enhance the experience. For those, I see nothing "wrong" with your method at all

Steve
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post #24 of 43 Old 05-01-2012, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post

Which chipset does the AVR 2600 have? I know you're the expert on HK's.

Edit: Nevermind looks like the 2600 and 3600 use the Cirrus® CS 49700

HK used different versions of the Cirrus Logic DSPs, depending upon intro date starting with 49300, 49400, 49500, 49700 (present) and 49800 in the new AVRs to be introed in early 2013..

Actually in the early days...
HK went to straight to 7.1 while other brands were pushing the short-lived 6.1 Dolby-Ex as to accomodate Logic 7, also market research @ the time showed a higher demand for Zone II capability vs. 7.1...

Just my $0.02...
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post #25 of 43 Old 05-01-2012, 10:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Which AVR has DD -> Logic 7.1 processing? I may want to check those ones out and replace mine.
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post #26 of 43 Old 05-01-2012, 11:43 AM
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7550HD..

Just my $0.02...
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post #27 of 43 Old 05-01-2012, 11:46 AM
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There's no question that discrete multi-channel has the potential advantage over matrixed surround, but in actual use some mixes may not be making full use of those advantages. As others have mentioned, dialogue can be copied to all front channels, there could be very little surround activity, the mix could sound like 5 mono pools of sound instead of a cohesive ring around the listener with imaging between speakers, etc.

In those instances, downmixing the discrete multi-channel mix to stereo and then extracting back the centre and surround channels can have advantages. Since no matrix extraction is perfect, small amounts of leakage between channels can cause the soundstage to appear more blended with noticeable phantom imaging between speakers, while a little bit of leakage into the surrounds can yield greater envelopment.

It's a situation where minor flaws of an older technology sound preferable to sub-optimal use of newer technology. Well, "sound preferable" to some people. I've seen examples of this with warm, lush tube amps vs cold, analytical-sounding solid state amps. In this particular case it is matrix surround vs discrete multi-channel, where the former has the added advantage of using the same matrix encoder (Logic7) for downmixing as it uses as the matrix decoder (Logic7) when extracting the centre and surround content.

Sanjay
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post #28 of 43 Old 05-01-2012, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

There's no question that discrete multi-channel has the potential advantage over matrixed surround, but in actual use some mixes may not be making full use of those advantages. As others have mentioned, dialogue can be copied to all front channels, there could be very little surround activity, the mix could sound like 5 mono pools of sound instead of a cohesive ring around the listener with imaging between speakers, etc.

Couldn't agree with you more on the mix being the key ingredient. What you say parallels my own experience. At least on most BD's there's at least a little music bled back there

Matrix processing is just another tool in the toolbox in case of "uninspired" recording engineers

Steve
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post #29 of 43 Old 05-01-2012, 02:24 PM - Thread Starter
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You got that Right Sanjay & Steve. Uninspired, lazy, pushing to get work done TV serial recordings are an awful use of the latest DD. I am glad I purchased the HK with Logic7 that saves the day. By the way, the down-mixing is done by the Samsung Plasma TV. It can accept DD as input but output to AVR is 2 channel PCM @ 48khz. Just because of that I did not use it and instead routed the audio signal directly from the Direct-tv receiver to the HK. Using it that way and watching TV shows such as "The Voice" was a horrible experience and only because I was tired of the poor audio reproduction that I chanced upon the use of my TV in this manner---as a downmixer so that the AVR can remix to Logic7.
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post #30 of 43 Old 05-01-2012, 02:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

7550HD..

Just my $0.02...

List Price: $2,999.00
Price: $1,999.95 & this item ships for FREE with Super Saver Shipping.

Ouch....

I looked on the Harmon website and got a better option

HK AVR 3600
List Price: $1,199.00
Price: $544.95 & this item ships for FREE with Super Saver Shipping.

Surround yourself with superior Logic 7® (5.1 and 7.1) sound.
Offering a universal multichannel sound solution for your movies, music and games on either 5.1-channel or 7.1-channel sound systems, harman kardon® Logic 7® processing takes original recordings (from stereo or any other source material) and transforms them with proprietary algorithms all our own. The result? Optimal audio quality that engulfs you in a 360-degree soundscape. Whether it’s handling HDMI®, analog, component or S-Video sources or computer-based audio from a USB connection or your iPod device via a The Bridge III docking station, Logic 7 technology works skillfully to ensure a superior entertainment experience – without any hassles.

http://www.harmankardon.com/EN-US/Pr...PID=AVR%203600
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