I see why people love NAD amps so much now - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 59 Old 05-04-2012, 04:57 AM
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Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

The problem with his test is the requirements to pass are impossible. You have to get 24 out of 24 guesses to be considered relevant. Plus, the amps are tweaked to make them sound similar. Something very few purchasers would do.

I think there are quality differences between amps, but the differences are subtle.

These tests are the holy grail of those who claim all amps sound the same. The intention of the tests were to demonstrate that the differences weren't huge. The test wasn't setup to demonstrate all amps sound the same.

Assuming that there are subtle differences between amps that can be tweaked away with a bit of EQ, how much are those differences worth in real dollars for which you've worked?

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post #32 of 59 Old 05-04-2012, 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by rokbyter View Post


Since we're way off topic anyway - how would one substantiate perception exactly, eh?

+1 science cannot explain the entire auditory experience....it's one thing to use science as a tool to compliment or substantiate and another to minimize one's perception/experience.
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post #33 of 59 Old 05-04-2012, 05:40 AM
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Just remember, there was a time when NAD stood for Not Always Defective!

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #34 of 59 Old 05-04-2012, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

Gee, I see a great deal on a NAD 356BEE amp for sale in the classified section.

Stop hyping your own sales outside of the appropriate areas of AVS
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post #35 of 59 Old 05-04-2012, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JD in NJ View Post


Assuming that there are subtle differences between amps that can be tweaked away with a bit of EQ, how much are those differences worth in real dollars for which you've worked?

The tweak requires knowledge. And knowledge is money. In my line of work, i charge $250+ just to know which checkbox to check off
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post #36 of 59 Old 05-04-2012, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

The tweak requires knowledge. And knowledge is money. In my line of work, i charge $250+ just to know which checkbox to check off

I suspect that I could hire a great deal of knowledge for a couple of hours without paying as much as the price differential between a high end amplifier and a basic one with sufficient power for my situation.

And let us not forget: The kind of room correction and equalization that used to require professionals with expensive equipment has now been brought to the masses in run-of-the-mill AVRs. I suspect that over the next few years we'll see more and more sophisticated electronics and software taking care of more and more sonic issues. Really, aside from new versions of HDMI and higher definition video, that's the only way that manufacturers will be able to sell massive quantities of new hardware.

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post #37 of 59 Old 05-04-2012, 07:11 AM
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I personally believe that amps can sound different. The differences can be subtle and require the rest of the chain to be adequately transparent and the speakers to be sufficiently revealing. Music is an emotional experience to me and I don't always detect the differences right away. Sometimes it isn't until either I have listened for a while or hit a certain passage that I realize something is different.
Last night I tried to find more info on the "Richard Clark Amplifier Challenge". Besides the often referred to link, I could not find much (besides Forum discussions) except Wikipedia deleted it because it was unverifiable. My experiences plus other credible sources in the industry convinces me not all amps sound the same even within their limits. I know others will disagree, perhaps we can agree to disagree.

Main Kef: Reference 205/2 & 202/2c, Surrounds: Kef XQ40, Velodyne Optimum 12, Integra DHC 80.3, Ayre K-5xeMP, Oppo BDP-103, Bryston 4Bsst2, Parasound Halo A31. Second B&W: 685 (3), CCM618, Def Tech Powerfield 1500, Onkyo TX-NR1008, Zone 2 Klipsch AW650.
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post #38 of 59 Old 05-04-2012, 08:18 AM
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[quote=Ryan1;21982969]Well, either provide some proof (something like the myriad blind tests provided in various threads), or else do indeed have "a nice warm glass" and do not mislead others.

"Golden ears" anecdotes from some store, where all it would take is for the one amp to be just a tad louder to appear "better," or for one label to be a bit shinier, do not count.



That's the spirit! Facts just get in the way, don't they? [/

What i want to know is who appointed you special envoy to setting the world straight according to you. Any time someone even mentions the word amp you and a few select others jump on the thread and start your tirade all over. People are going to buy external amps no matter how many times you come here and push your agenda. The internet is not your personal bandstand. I am not here to argue with you about your so called facts,just to tell you to keep your opinion to yourself unless you are asked for it.
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post #39 of 59 Old 05-04-2012, 08:57 AM
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[quote=Socketman;21983743]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan1 View Post

Well, either provide some proof (something like the myriad blind tests provided in various threads), or else do indeed have "a nice warm glass" and do not mislead others.

"Golden ears" anecdotes from some store, where all it would take is for the one amp to be just a tad louder to appear "better," or for one label to be a bit shinier, do not count.



That's the spirit! Facts just get in the way, don't they? [/

What i want to know is who appointed you special envoy to setting the world straight according to you. Any time someone even mentions the word amp you and a few select others jump on the thread and start your tirade all over. People are going to buy external amps no matter how many times you come here and push your agenda. The internet is not your personal bandstand. I am not here to argue with you about your so called facts,just to tell you to keep your opinion to yourself unless you are asked for it.

His "so called facts" are in actuality, just "facts". There is plenty of evidence produced, available, and referenced on AVS that when run within spec, solid state amplifiers sound the same. Care to produce any evidence that supports your counter position?
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post #40 of 59 Old 05-04-2012, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JD in NJ View Post


I suspect that I could hire a great deal of knowledge for a couple of hours without paying as much as the price differential between a high end amplifier and a basic one with sufficient power for my situation.

And let us not forget: The kind of room correction and equalization that used to require professionals with expensive equipment has now been brought to the masses in run-of-the-mill AVRs. I suspect that over the next few years we'll see more and more sophisticated electronics and software taking care of more and more sonic issues. Really, aside from new versions of HDMI and higher definition video, that's the only way that manufacturers will be able to sell massive quantities of new hardware.

I totally agree on the advancement part. However, each manufacturer will advance at a different pace and in a slightly different direction. This will create the sonic difference that will create many more threads talking about one avr sounding better than the other. On top of that, the basic amplifier without any such corrections will sound much different and to sonebody's liking over the sonically balanced avr.
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post #41 of 59 Old 05-04-2012, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

I have provided links to tests that showed a high percentage of listeners preferred one amp or receiver over another in blind tests. All of the test were dismissed. It's a catch 22. The only valid tests are the ones that back ones point. If contrary evidence is shown, the test are, based on results, invalid.

I thought the changes were to correct for frequency response in some cases. I would not want an amp that did not have flat response to begin with.

Not saying the test is 100% valid. There will never be concensus on blind listening tests based on my experience in this forum. There will always be people who won't agree with methodology, and some people reject blind testing to begin with.

I think of blind tests as one set of evidence. Which to my thinking, demonstrate that amps are hard to tell apart, as a general rule.

You would need a much larger, more carefully controlled scientific study to even start to prove amps sound alike. In fact, as some tube amps have distortion up to 10% THD, I see no reason they would not sound different

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #42 of 59 Old 05-04-2012, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Elmo C View Post

You are the hero of the day, throwing yourself on a grenade to save I the rest of us.It was nice knowing you, too bad you will now slandered into oblivion.

Actually, it's gotten better (I think). Most of the cult have tired of trying to cure the world and in most cases they list so many disclaimers what they say has no meaning... if everything is identical amps will sound the same... duh. However they never prove various receivers (not to mention amps) are identical and have no interest in doing such... much rather reference some ancient gospel.
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post #43 of 59 Old 05-04-2012, 11:14 AM
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All amps do not sound the same, BUT once you get past a certain minimum quality and both are going for accurate response they all will sound the same, unless there is some sort of design flaw or problem with the amp.

Receivers are a different story since they are a heck of a lot more than just an amp.

Also when comparing you need to remember you aren't just using your ears, you are using your brain, memory, and any preconceived notions. I mean heck you are going about this from memory, even right after reading this short post do you think you could recreate it word for word from memory?

And yes NAD amps are enjoyable to listen to.
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post #44 of 59 Old 05-04-2012, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

Actually, it's gotten better (I think). Most of the cult have tired of trying to cure the world and in most cases they list so many disclaimers what they say has no meaning... if everything is identical amps will sound the same... duh. However they never prove various receivers (not to mention amps) are identical and have no interest in doing such... much rather reference some ancient gospel.

Well that would be good news.I don't have a problem with anyone believing what they like.Whatever makes ones listening more pleasant more power to ya.

When someone tells someone else they don't really hear something that's a little weird.Why would I or anyone not want someone to enjoy their purchase?When it come to human interpretation of senses there is a lot of room for variables.

To those that believe that amps and avrs or pres all sound they same they also have every right to believe it.I don't understand why they get hostile at another point of view, just disagree....
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post #45 of 59 Old 05-04-2012, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Elmo C View Post

To those that believe that amps and avrs or pres all sound they same they also have every right to believe it.I don't understand why they get hostile at another point of view, just disagree....

I'll bet part of it comes from their viewpoint being misrepresented so often by those who disagree with them. All I have ever read is that solid state amplifiers, operating within their power budget to avoid clipping and stay linear, are essentially indistinguishable. And yet, arguments come up about how "my tube amp sounds different" or "you can't tell me that all AVRs sound the same".

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post #46 of 59 Old 05-04-2012, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmo C View Post

I don't understand why they get hostile at another point of view, just disagree....

I used to think they all sounded very close... that was until my wife keep yipping at me. She will often go to sleep in the room above my den and with Denon, Marantz and Onkyo the odds are good I'll get a late night visit... I can feel the bass! With Pioneer and Yamaha I'm more than safe... never been yipped at yet. Oh late at night I turn off EQing so Dynamic EQ and whatnot doesn't come into play. It's quite the blind test.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JD in NJ View Post

I'll bet part of it comes from their viewpoint being misrepresented so often by those who disagree with them.

I tend to think it's more... the theory makes perfect sense and is hard to poke a hole in (next to impossible?). The problem is the theory is just that... identical equipment (performing wise) and I have yet to see proof all of these receivers are identical. Abstractly you can't disagree with them... in practice I have my doubts.
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post #47 of 59 Old 05-04-2012, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkhorror View Post

All amps do not sound the same, BUT once you get past a certain minimum quality and both are going for accurate response they all will sound the same, unless there is some sort of design flaw or problem with the amp.

Receivers are a different story since they are a heck of a lot more than just an amp.....

Can't disagree with this.

But in the 21st century, most amps built by reputable manufacturers ARE built to such minimum standard and will measure flat, effectively sounding the same.

Of course some equipment, both cheap and expensive, particularly tube stuff, may distort and color the sound, which even if pleasing to the owner of such equipment, is not a faithful amplification of the source signal. But I am not aware of any major AVR/amp manufacturer engaging in this.

I was just reading something on a somewhat related subject, "24/192 Music Downloads, ...and why they make no sense."
While discussing testing parameters, the author makes an observation which (together with possible confirmation bias) would very likely explain the OP's experience and the title of this thread:

Quote:


"The human ear can consciously discriminate amplitude differences of about 1dB, and experiments show subconscious awareness of amplitude differences under .2dB. Humans almost universally consider louder audio to sound better, and .2dB is enough to establish this preference. Any comparison that fails to carefully amplitude-match the choices will see the louder choice preferred, even if the amplitude difference is too small to consciously notice. Stereo salemen have known this trick for a long time.

The professional testing standard is to match sources to within .1dB or better. This often requires use of an oscilloscope or signal analyzer. Guessing by turning the knobs until two sources sound about the same is not good enough."

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post #48 of 59 Old 05-04-2012, 01:50 PM
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I really don't think turning up the volume on a ,what I consider a cheap avr, a few DB makes it sound better, just louder bad sound.A ,what I consider good sounding avr, sounds good loud or not, it has a different sound signature to my ears even in direct mode.That's just an opinion, mine, anyone else certainly can disagree, just please don't tell me what I hear/like(not directed at anyone).
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post #49 of 59 Old 05-04-2012, 02:04 PM
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Regardless of the brand...
My Bose speakers makes any AVR or amplifier sound good...

Just my $0.02..
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post #50 of 59 Old 05-04-2012, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

I have yet to see proof all of these receivers are identical.

Not 'receivers', just 'amplifiers'. Now, the amplifier sections of the receivers may be essentially indistinguishable when run within their limits, but that's hard or impossible to separate from the prepro section on many of them.

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post #51 of 59 Old 05-04-2012, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Regardless of the brand...
My Bose speakers makes any AVR or amplifier sound good...

Just my $0.02..

I almost spit out my Mt dew on that one. Too funny.
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post #52 of 59 Old 05-05-2012, 12:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmo C View Post

You are the hero of the day, throwing yourself on a grenade to save I the rest of us.It was nice knowing you, too bad you will now slandered into oblivion.

What kills me about them isn't even that I disagree all that much. Most amps in similar $ and power ranges DO sound basically the same. It's their unbearable pompous attitude that repulses me.

There's one guy on this site who went through my grammar and then claimed I was illiterate. One of those guys who just HAVE TO quote line by line and preach basic speaker design theory he picked up from 80's speaker magazine articles, as if they relate to today's designs. He even pumped out a little German to try to impress.

EXTREME transparent insecurity.

I'm sure many of you are already saying his name under your breathe.

Moderator harassment is wrong and immoral.  
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post #53 of 59 Old 05-05-2012, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

I used to think they all sounded very close... that was until my wife keep yipping at me. She will often go to sleep in the room above my den and with Denon, Marantz and Onkyo the odds are good I'll get a late night visit... I can feel the bass! With Pioneer and Yamaha I'm more than safe... never been yipped at yet. Oh late at night I turn off EQing so Dynamic EQ and whatnot doesn't come into play. It's quite the blind test.

I tend to think it's more... the theory makes perfect sense and is hard to poke a hole in (next to impossible?). The problem is the theory is just that... identical equipment (performing wise) and I have yet to see proof all of these receivers are identical. Abstractly you can't disagree with them... in practice I have my doubts.

I would have thought that was bass management calibration, unless you don't use a powered sub? I could be wrong, but I would think bass you can feel is below 80 he

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #54 of 59 Old 05-05-2012, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dean-l View Post

What kills me about them isn't even that I disagree all that much. Most amps in similar $ and power ranges DO sound basically the same. It's their unbearable pompous attitude that repulses me.

There's one guy on this site who went through my grammar and then claimed I was illiterate. One of those guys who just HAVE TO quote line by line and preach basic speaker design theory he picked up from 80's speaker magazine articles, as if they relate to today's designs. He even pumped out a little German to try to impress.

EXTREME transparent insecurity.

I'm sure many of you are already saying his name under your breathe.

I'm not here enough to know many names but I agree with the basic statement.Most of us would agree amps are very similar, with some having a little better or worse sound according to taste and other gear.The grammer police, please, that's an excuse when you have nothing else.

Everyone, enjoy your gear, don't let me or anyone tell you what you hear or like.
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post #55 of 59 Old 05-05-2012, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by turbobuick86 View Post

Is your wow-factor attributal to the amp or the $14K speakers? I would think mostly the latter.

You'd be correct.
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post #56 of 59 Old 05-05-2012, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

I would have thought that was bass management calibration, unless you don't use a powered sub? I could be wrong, but I would think bass you can feel is below 80 he

In my den I use a 2.0 setup (nice set of Boston Acoustics). Funny thing is I can tell differences in receivers in my den easily where in my dedicated room it's extremely hard (if possible). I run 7.2 (with four powered subs - fronts and sides) Boston Acoustics in there as well. The sound is so engulfing I find it much more difficult to actually define a difference... best I can do is feel that it sounds different. Like when I had a Pioneer SC-07 in there I felt it was rather clean... lacking some presence compared to Denon. I wouldn't have bet the house on it but in the Den I would.
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post #57 of 59 Old 05-05-2012, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

In my den I use a 2.0 setup (nice set of Boston Acoustics). Funny thing is I can tell differences in receivers in my den easily where in my dedicated room it's extremely hard (if possible). I run 7.2 (with four powered subs - fronts and sides) Boston Acoustics in there as well. The sound is so engulfing I find it much more difficult to actually define a difference... best I can do is feel that it sounds different. Like when I had a Pioneer SC-07 in there I felt it was rather clean... lacking some presence compared to Denon. I wouldn't have bet the house on it but in the Den I would.

Are you comparing with the same material, with the same bass management set up, in "direct" (or whatever is the equivalent for each AVR) mode, same volume level?

I also assume that you replaced the SC-07 with the Denon, which was newer and "improved," and provoked due excitement (sufficient for you to turn the dial up, or at least for a good placebo effect) when it came to be placed on your shelf.

There are so many variables in your situation that you could be hearing anything. It proves nothing relevant to this at times absurd discussion, however.
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post #58 of 59 Old 05-05-2012, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keyboardcat View Post

I see why people love NAD amps so much now

NAD is a good brand but b4r u open the wallet make sure the salesman wasn't fiddling with the loudness control or u were seduced by the pracibo effect. (Expensive$==must be good!)
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post #59 of 59 Old 05-05-2012, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan1 View Post

Are you comparing with the same material, with the same bass management set up, in "direct" (or whatever is the equivalent for each AVR) mode, same volume level?

Actually, in the den I did which is how I could tell beyond doubt. Originally, I used the track Poker After Dark always uses before each commercial break. It's a subtle track with some quiet low (deep?) bass. With Denon (591, 1611, 1712, 2112), Marantz (SR6005) and Onkyo (360, 509, 609) I could feel the bass... it had presence for lack of a better description. With Pioneer (521, 1121, VSX something) and Yamaha (367, 371, 571) you could still hear the track (barely) but it lacked any kick at all. Even though I ran direct and volume matched it didn't really matter... the bass wasn't close regardless of volume. Nor was the rest of the sound but I had no other fixed reference points to focus on.

For me that confirmed they sounded different. I knew they did before but I had no real point of reference that I would testify to. Of late I have Lady Gaga's Thanksgiving special on the DVR and know each of the songs rather well. Especially, the first duet with Tony Bennett. It performs the same as Poker After Dark.

Regarding your excitement factor these receivers (listed above) weren't mine... I was simply testing them... verifying they worked fine before being installed. Also, I never said one sounded better than another... just different.
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