The **OFFICIAL** Denon AVR-XX13 Model Owner's Thread & FAQ - Page 223 - AVS Forum
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post #6661 of 10617 Old 03-27-2013, 08:51 AM - Thread Starter
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You can output stereo audio to Zone 2 and 3, not sure what you are seeing. Are you confused by the fact that you can select mono/stereo output for the other zones?

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post #6662 of 10617 Old 03-27-2013, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by pbenjamin View Post

That did not help. Is there anyone out there who is using Spotify who can testify that it still works for them so that I can rule out some change at Spotify's end? It seems odd that this started happening without anything changing on my end and that the other Network apps are working.

Oh, and to answer your question, it is wired to a bridge router.

So am I correct in assuming that nobody here uses Spotify?

Paul
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post #6663 of 10617 Old 03-27-2013, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Try adjusting the Restorer Mode (p. 101 OM). Also, do you have all speakers set to SMALL? What are their crossover settings? Keep in mind that the crossover is not a brick wall changing point ... rather the audio will tend to roll off at those settings so you'll still get some frequencies below the crossover coming through the speakers.

I did attempt to adjust the restorer mode, settling with "mode 3" as the best sounding option. The sound is pretty decent when I use standard stereo format, through my energy sub and two floor-standing 1991 Sony front right and front left speakers (those speakers are still amazing!). Maybe everything is as it is supposed to be. My sub is not a very good one, Energy EW-100, and I know that it only pushes 55 watts, so maybe the problem is just that my sub isn't very efficient and I expect too much out of it? It sounds great for movies and TV. All speakers are set to "small", with front, center, and surround crossed over at 90 hz, and surround back at 100 hz... all per the Audyssey auto cal.

A question on the Audyssey set-up... I re-ran the program yesterday, as I had learned from this thread that I had been making an unnecessary tweak to the settings, and it recommended crossing the sub at 120 hz, which is the max my sub will allow on the physical knob on the sub itself. I left the sub setting all the way up, per the instructions. My question is this: I set the AVR to cross the sub at 120 hz. Is this a normal crossover point for a sub, it seems a bit high? Also, if I leave the sub at 120, and the rest are crossed at 90 or 100 hz... am I not losing the frequency between the two points, in my case 20 or 30 hz?

Thanks again for all of your help!

Matthew
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post #6664 of 10617 Old 03-27-2013, 09:59 AM - Thread Starter
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The LFE setting is NOT a crossover. I cover this in my FAQ: http://batpigworld.com/fadq.html#audyssey

It's also mentioned in all the other FAQ's, e.g. - http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1/51750#user_c5

There is only ONE crossover for the speakers, that is the crossover you set in the Speaker Config menu. The LFE LPF setting doesn't have anything to do with bass management. The knob on the sub should be maxed out so you get it out of the way of the receiver's crossovers, which are doing the actual bass management.

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post #6665 of 10617 Old 03-27-2013, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

The LFE setting is NOT a crossover. I cover this in my FAQ: http://batpigworld.com/fadq.html#audyssey

It's also mentioned in all the other FAQ's, e.g. - http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1/51750#user_c5

There is only ONE crossover for the speakers, that is the crossover you set in the Speaker Config menu. The LFE LPF setting doesn't have anything to do with bass management. The knob on the sub should be maxed out so you get it out of the way of the receiver's crossovers, which are doing the actual bass management.

Thanks BatPig... I'm sorry for my slow learning curve with this. I have read all of that info you link to on your site a few times. While you were replying to my question I was actually reading it again, and I do understand now. It was just a slow process. I apologize for the unnecessary question.

BatPig: What is your take on the 80 hz vs. 120 hz LPF for LFE settings debate? Curious to know...

Thanks for your help!
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post #6666 of 10617 Old 03-27-2013, 10:13 AM - Thread Starter
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No need to apologize smile.gif it's confusing stuff!

My feeling onthe 80 vs 120 thing is that the difference is likely to be so slight that it's probably not worth worrying about. I do buy the arguments for 80 though, they are sensible. I think the fact that you are deviating from the "artist's intent" by slightly rolling off the minimal amount of content above 80Hz in the LFE channel is the "lesser evil" compared to the potential of some boominess or bloat leaking in if there is extra junk up there. When you understand that these filters are not "brick walls" but filters with slopes, then it's not as big of a deal because you aren't just chopping off the content above 80Hz, but rather just rolling it off a little more steeply.

The "120Hz is the correct setting" thing really applies to movies, and considering that a bunch of content I listen to is NOT well mixed movies (e.g. TV shows, Netflix streams, music) I do think setting it lower than 120Hz is viable. For the record, mine is set at 100Hz, so I guess that makes me a wishy washy compromising type tongue.gif

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post #6667 of 10617 Old 03-27-2013, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

No need to apologize smile.gif it's confusing stuff!

My feeling onthe 80 vs 120 thing is that the difference is likely to be so slight that it's probably not worth worrying about. I do buy the arguments for 80 though, they are sensible. I think the fact that you are deviating from the "artist's intent" by slightly rolling off the minimal amount of content above 80Hz in the LFE channel is the "lesser evil" compared to the potential of some boominess or bloat leaking in if there is extra junk up there. When you understand that these filters are not "brick walls" but filters with slopes, then it's not as big of a deal because you aren't just chopping off the content above 80Hz, but rather just rolling it off a little more steeply.

The "120Hz is the correct setting" thing really applies to movies, and considering that a bunch of content I listen to is NOT well mixed movies (e.g. TV shows, Netflix streams, music) I do think setting it lower than 120Hz is viable. For the record, mine is set at 100Hz, so I guess that makes me a wishy washy compromising type tongue.gif

Thanks much for your expert opinion. Rather interesting to me that you split the difference at 100 hz smile.gif

Can you talk about (probably for the millionth time) the repercussions of adjusting the Audyssey-recommended levels? I am finding that, for my ears, the surrounds and surround backs are slightly under-whelming with the recommended levels. If I up them slightly am I defeating Audyssey, or messing up the whole calibration? Forgive me, I'm learning... and at times the articles and info that all you learned folks link to are a bit on the tech-speak end to me. Can you explain it to me like the complete novice that I am?

Thanks!
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post #6668 of 10617 Old 03-27-2013, 10:51 AM
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I'm sure Batpig will get more techy in a second here wink.gif , but since you mentioned that your surrounds are "under-whelming", I have to ask if you are using Dynamic EQ? If not, you should.
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post #6669 of 10617 Old 03-27-2013, 10:52 AM
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just installed my new dEnon 3313ic and spotufy works just fine from receiver and also from airplay from my iphone. The only thing I cant figure out yet is how to select a radio station or do searches from the receiver network source on spotify. I can only play whats on my playlist.
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post #6670 of 10617 Old 03-27-2013, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

I'm sure Batpig will get more techy in a second here wink.gif , but since you mentioned that your surrounds are "under-whelming", I have to ask if you are using Dynamic EQ? If not, you should.

Hi Alan,

Yes, I am using Dynamic EQ. Thanks!
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post #6671 of 10617 Old 03-27-2013, 11:24 AM
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OK, so I picked up the 3313ci on Friday and noticed the last couple days a buzzing noise coming from the receiver when a light picture (white/yellow) comes on the tv. I played Bioshock for a few hours last night and after it was doing it kinda loud and often. I turned the receiver off and back on and it started doing it again on the xbox dash board after a few seconds. The sound is definately coming from the receiver. Has anyone had this happen to them or have any idea what it could be?
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post #6672 of 10617 Old 03-27-2013, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

You can output stereo audio to Zone 2 and 3, not sure what you are seeing. Are you confused by the fact that you can select mono/stereo output for the other zones?

"zone 2 AND 3".... only if they are both mono (amplified), or if they are both analog pre-out and you buy two more amps.


There are many limitations. Here's what I've learned, I think:

Amp has 7 channels. Can do 5.1 in zone1, and the other 2 channels go to either zone 2 OR 3 (or mono in both).

You can send pre-out stereo to zone2 and zone 3, but only from analog inputs. This is fine EXCEPT when playing a HDMI source in zone 2 (the entire point of this receiver). The audio is way out of sync, the analog audio gets there faster than the hdmi video, even in game mode. Even if it could sync, the TV won't play HDMI video and analog audio at the same time.

Ok... then, let's pass audio through the HDMI zone2 output. The receiver will not do this while zone1 is getting amplified.

I think I'll just get 2 pairs of 4 ohm speakers for zone2 and 3 then.


Oh.... and if you're watching the same source in zone 1 and zone 2, it downscales the audio and video to the weakest setup. Does this mean I'd only get mono in zone1 when someone turns on the tv in zone2 to the same source?


So, in effect...

The 3313 can do 2 independent HDMI a/v zones with speakers driven by the amp.

OR

It can do 1 HDMI a/v zone and 2 additional analog audio zones.

One or the other, no combination of the two. Is this right?
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post #6673 of 10617 Old 03-27-2013, 11:39 AM
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Ok another new problem. Sometimes when i switch to my HTPC source, i get no signal. I have to switch to another input and then switch back to the HTPC input to end up getting a signal (not even the denon logo, just a black screen with the "no signal" message from my VT50 TV). It seems to happen only with the HTPC source. Never happenned with other sources yet.

What the hell is wrong with this receiver... paid $1300 plus taxes for it and i'm getting troubles that my $400 onkyo receiver didn't have...


My other questions are still unanswered:
Quote:
#1 when i watch cable (from cogeco cable) the receiver says the signal is Dolby Digital. However i only get sound from my front speakers. Shouldn't i get sound on the back speakers with dolby digital ?

#2 Is there a way to set the receiver to output Stereo X2 sound when it receives a stereo source ? I was able to do this with my Onkyo receiver, and stereo sound would also play on my rear speakers.

#3 i'm having a very weird problem with my HTPC hooked on this receiver. I use XBMC to play movies, and i noticed that sometimes when i press the right arrow to skip 1min forward the video then sometimes the receiver just stops outputing sound. I have to either pause/play or skip forward again to get back my sound. It happens around 10% of the time when i press the "skip forward" button.
When the bug happens the receiver's LCD screen will display the wrong audio type (for example right now i am watching a dolby digital movie and when the bugs happen the receiver will switch to PLII Cinema)
I didn't have this problem with my old Onkyo receiver. So this is not an xbmc-related problem.
Does anyone have a similar problem with XBMC and this receiver ?
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post #6674 of 10617 Old 03-27-2013, 11:56 AM - Thread Starter
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HTPC's can be a PITA to get working properly with HDMI. There are some troubleshooting options at the beginning of this thread.

To your other questions:

#1 -- it depends on the broadcast. Some TV stations pipe stereo sound through a 5.1 "container" leaving the other channels blank. Some may just not have much surround content. If a "real" 5.1 soundtrack (e.g. a DVD or Blu-ray) sounds normal then I would assume it's just the nature of the broadcast.

#2 -- just use MultiCH STEREO mode

#3 -- see above... this is an HDMI handshake problem with your HTPC. HDMI can really suck sometimes.

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post #6675 of 10617 Old 03-27-2013, 12:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJRHARTLEY View Post

Can you talk about (probably for the millionth time) the repercussions of adjusting the Audyssey-recommended levels? I am finding that, for my ears, the surrounds and surround backs are slightly under-whelming with the recommended levels. If I up them slightly am I defeating Audyssey, or messing up the whole calibration?

There are no repercussions to tweaking channel levels. The Audyssey EQ filters are independent of the speaker levels. You don't want to bump ALL the speakers levels up/down as this changed the total system volume (which will mess with Dynamic EQ) but tweaking individual channels, like bumping the center up for clearer dialogue, goosing the sub a bit for more bass, turning the surrounds up/down, etc. will not hurt anything.

That said, like Alan P implied it's pretty weird to think the surrounds are UNDERwhelming if you are using Dynamic EQ. Most people think they are too loud at first! Are you sure it's not just the content? Have you tried a Blu-ray with heavy surround action (e.g. a modern big budget action flick like Transformers, War of the Worlds, etc.)?

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post #6676 of 10617 Old 03-27-2013, 12:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CentralCoaster View Post

Amp has 7 channels. Can do 5.1 in zone1, and the other 2 channels go to either zone 2 OR 3 (or mono in both).

OK, so at least you understand that. I wouldn't consider that a "limitation" but rather a self-evident fact. You bought a seven channel receiver. Two stereo zones would require four amp channels, and four plus five (for a 5.1 setup in main zone) equals NINE. If you want to run two extra stereo zones then you need additional amplification, expecting a 7 channel receiver to run 9 channels of content isn't realistic.

Quote:
You can send pre-out stereo to zone2 and zone 3, but only from analog inputs. This is fine EXCEPT when playing a HDMI source in zone 2 (the entire point of this receiver). The audio is way out of sync, the analog audio gets there faster than the hdmi video, even in game mode. Even if it could sync, the TV won't play HDMI video and analog audio at the same time
.

Yes, this is an unfortunate design choice. The higher level 4520ci splits the HDMI matrix output into its own zone (Zone 4) so the two stereo analog zones are separate. The best bet, if your primary use is piping the HDMI Zone 2 to another TV, is to then feed the additional speakers straight from the TV or from a cheaper second receiver in that other zone. That would also resolve the dual-stereo issue as the two extra amps could now do dedicated stereo Zone 3.

Quote:
Ok... then, let's pass audio through the HDMI zone2 output. The receiver will not do this while zone1 is getting amplified.

This part doesn't seem right to me. You should be able to do whatever you want in Main Zone while passing the HDMI signal to Zone 2. Can you describe this part more specifically?

Quote:
Oh.... and if you're watching the same source in zone 1 and zone 2, it downscales the audio and video to the weakest setup. Does this mean I'd only get mono in zone1 when someone turns on the tv in zone2 to the same source?

This is a limitation of HDMI itself, not the receiver. You would get the same thing if you used a simple HDMI matrix splitter/switch. The HDMI handshake requires all devices in the chain to "talk" to each other and authenticate their capabilities (EDID info). If an HDMI source is split to two different HDMI "sinks", and one sink reports that it can accept 1080p signals but the other source reports that it can only accept up to 1080i signals, the source will automatically reduce its output resolution to 1080i so it is compatible with the HDMI sinks. Same thing with multich vs. stereo audio.

Not sure what you mean with mono audio. No source outputs mono audio. Worst case, if playing the same HDMI source in Main Zone and the HDMI Zone 2, the source would reduce output to stereo to be compatibly with both zones. Adding a cheap HDMI receiver to the second HDMI zone would resolve this as then both zones would be capable of receiving multich audio over HDMI.

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post #6677 of 10617 Old 03-27-2013, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LETH2AL View Post

OK, so I picked up the 3313ci on Friday and noticed the last couple days a buzzing noise coming from the receiver when a light picture (white/yellow) comes on the tv. I played Bioshock for a few hours last night and after it was doing it kinda loud and often. I turned the receiver off and back on and it started doing it again on the xbox dash board after a few seconds. The sound is definately coming from the receiver. Has anyone had this happen to them or have any idea what it could be?

I guess no one has had this issue. Does anyone at least know what it could be or should I just exchange it?
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post #6678 of 10617 Old 03-27-2013, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

There are no repercussions to tweaking channel levels. The Audyssey EQ filters are independent of the speaker levels. You don't want to bump ALL the speakers levels up/down as this changed the total system volume (which will mess with Dynamic EQ) but tweaking individual channels, like bumping the center up for clearer dialogue, goosing the sub a bit for more bass, turning the surrounds up/down, etc. will not hurt anything.

That said, like Alan P implied it's pretty weird to think the surrounds are UNDERwhelming if you are using Dynamic EQ. Most people think they are too loud at first! Are you sure it's not just the content? Have you tried a Blu-ray with heavy surround action (e.g. a modern big budget action flick like Transformers, War of the Worlds, etc.)?

Thanks for your response (again!). Here's the deal... To run a test on my system I usually use the college quad fight sequence from Edward Norton's version of "Hulk", so many great effects and explosions, gunshots, etc... The surrounds do sound fine, actually quite good, in that instance. I'm underwhelmed by regular cable tv/Netflix watching. I expect it will be less pronounced, obviously. With the settings the way they are currently there is virtually nothing coming from the surrounds/surround backs. It's there, so I know it's coming through in the intended 7.1... but just barely so.

Thanks!
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post #6679 of 10617 Old 03-27-2013, 02:41 PM
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Quick question.........am interested in picking up 4 ohm speakers with sensitivity at 93db at 2.83V/m and recommended amplification at 25-200 watts .........I have a 2113ci...........knowing that this receiver may not be ideal for these speakers, can I still use it to reasonably power them? Or will there be a safety ( overload/clipping) problem? Listening level will be FAR less than reference.........
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post #6680 of 10617 Old 03-27-2013, 02:49 PM - Thread Starter
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If levels "will be FAR less than reference" you will probably be fine. The louder it gets, the more likely you are to get into trouble, but at moderate volumes the speakers will be drawing less than 10 watts per channel.

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post #6681 of 10617 Old 03-27-2013, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJRHARTLEY View Post

Thanks for your response (again!). Here's the deal... To run a test on my system I usually use the college quad fight sequence from Edward Norton's version of "Hulk", so many great effects and explosions, gunshots, etc... The surrounds do sound fine, actually quite good, in that instance. I'm underwhelmed by regular cable tv/Netflix watching. I expect it will be less pronounced, obviously. With the settings the way they are currently there is virtually nothing coming from the surrounds/surround backs. It's there, so I know it's coming through in the intended 7.1... but just barely so.

Thanks!

AFAIK, there are no television stations nor any content on Netflix available in 7.1 - 5.1 Dolby Digital is as good as it gets. To get 7.1 playback with these sources you have to matrix the L/R surrounds into the rear channel(s) by using Dolby PLIIx or a similar DSP setting.
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post #6682 of 10617 Old 03-27-2013, 03:51 PM
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Thanks batpig, I appreciate the help. Projector showed up today so I'll have some more displays to test with. I may have jumped the gun on the HDMI2 passing audio or not. I'll test it tonight, as the manual is clear as mud.

"The following restrictions apply to the HDMI ZONE2 function.
• If you select a same input source for MAIN ZONE and ZONE2, audio playback may be restricted or video
may be interrupted.
• Video may not be output depending on the resolution of the TV used for MAIN ZONE and ZONE2. In this
case, use your player to set the resolution of the TV.
• The HDMI audio signals for the input source selected in ZONE2 are output from the ZONE2 speakers.[b/]

Audio output
It is possible to play 2-channel audio in rooms other than the MAIN ZONE where multi-channel playback is
done. Choose one of the methods.
1. Zone playback by speaker output
2. Zone playback by audio output (PRE OUT) <--only plays analog inputs
Use an external amplifier."
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post #6683 of 10617 Old 03-27-2013, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CentralCoaster View Post

I may have jumped the gun on the HDMI2 passing audio or not.

Audio and video for zone 2 use from the selected HDMI input is output on HDMI out zone 2 while the main zone is in use. I have never experienced an issue doing this.
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post #6684 of 10617 Old 03-27-2013, 04:43 PM
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• The HDMI audio signals for the input source selected in ZONE2 are output from the ZONE2 speakers.

This is referencing the Zone 2 speakers used for the Zone 2(HDMI) source and NOT the Zone 2 pre-outs or Amp Assign (Zone 2) speaker posts.

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post #6685 of 10617 Old 03-27-2013, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by padgman1 View Post

Quick question.........am interested in picking up 4 ohm speakers with sensitivity at 93db at 2.83V/m and recommended amplification at 25-200 watts .........I have a 2113ci...........knowing that this receiver may not be ideal for these speakers, can I still use it to reasonably power them? Or will there be a safety ( overload/clipping) problem? Listening level will be FAR less than reference.........

Denon AVRs are generally capable of playing efficient 4-ohm speakers at average "TV" volume levels (eg. -30db to -20db).

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post #6686 of 10617 Old 03-27-2013, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Denon AVRs are generally capable of playing efficient 4-ohm speakers at average "TV" volume levels (eg. -30db to -20db).

Got a question for you. I have a denon 1613 right now. When I bought it a few months ago I knew I would be upgrading from it within a short amount of time, but I got a really good deal on it. Currently I'm running a 3.1. Two triple 8 JTRs which are 4ohm for LR and a single 8 for my center, with an S2 for my sub. I had been thinking that I had it turned up quite loud. I listen to it at -10 for pretty much all listening and it sounds just right, it's not really that loud.

I'm going to be adding two more single 8s for my surrounds, and eventually two more for rears. I had been planning on getting a new denon with 7.1, probably the 2113. Will that be good enough to power them? I like my current denon so I had planned on sticking with them.

Do you think the 2113 or 2313 or 3313 would be sufficient or should I be looking at some other AVR? I've tried searching for 4ohm receivers before I purchased the 1613 and found nothing on this site, bunch of people asking but no one answering which avrs could do 4ohm.
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post #6687 of 10617 Old 03-27-2013, 05:40 PM
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I got a pair of B&W 683's. They are in a 450 SqFt room. But they sound loud at -50dB's with my Denon 1613. They sound VERY loud at -40dB's. With my old speakers I usually went up to -40 or -35dB's for normal listening volume.
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post #6688 of 10617 Old 03-27-2013, 05:44 PM - Thread Starter
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What source? And are you using Dynamic Volume?

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post #6689 of 10617 Old 03-27-2013, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JC507JC View Post

Got a question for you. I have a denon 1613 right now. When I bought it a few months ago I knew I would be upgrading from it within a short amount of time, but I got a really good deal on it. Currently I'm running a 3.1. Two triple 8 JTRs which are 4ohm for LR and a single 8 for my center, with an S2 for my sub. I had been thinking that I had it turned up quite loud. I listen to it at -10 for pretty much all listening and it sounds just right, it's not really that loud.

I'm going to be adding two more single 8s for my surrounds, and eventually two more for rears. I had been planning on getting a new denon with 7.1, probably the 2113. Will that be good enough to power them? I like my current denon so I had planned on sticking with them.

Do you think the 2113 or 3113 would be sufficient or should I be looking at some other AVR? I've tried searching for 4ohm receivers before I purchased the 1613 and found nothing on this site, bunch of people asking but no one answering which avrs could do 4ohm.

Upgrading to a higher model (other than the 4520CI) isn't going to make much difference in overall volume. If the AVR isn't shutting down in protection mode, then there's nothing wrong with that volume level (other than the fact that it's just not as loud as when using 8-ohm speakers at that same master volume level).

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post #6690 of 10617 Old 03-27-2013, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Upgrading to a higher model (other than the 4520CI) isn't going to make much difference in overall volume. If the AVR isn't shutting down in protection mode, then there's nothing wrong with that volume level (other than the fact that it's just not as loud as when using 8-ohm speakers at that same master volume level).
Thank you. Yea it's not shutting down or even get hot at all, barely even warm. My worry is when I add more speakers, will it stay the same or is drawing more power for the other speakers going to affect it?
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