Onkyo 5009 too Bright with Klipsch ! HELP ! - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 121 Old 05-20-2012, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by UNICRON-WMD View Post

That might help but it is hard to say. I think they have a 30 day return policy, it might be worth a try.

Klipsch are inherently bright speakers, but if you feel they are alot brighter then they should be, try exchanging your 5009 for another one.

Do you have any pictures or diagrams of your speaker placement. That could effect the sound and have issues with Audyssey. That is one of the main reasons OldSchoolMetal has issues with Audyssey, very bad speaker placement.

If you bought the Klipsch at a store near you, go in a listen to them with different receivers and see if you can find one that suits your ears better.

My speakers are not badly placed at all. They are placed exactly like they should be except maybe the subwoofer but it sounds awesome when I set it up, not audyssey.
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post #32 of 121 Old 05-20-2012, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by OldSchoolMETAL View Post

My speakers are not badly placed at all. They are placed exactly like they should be except maybe the subwoofer but it sounds awesome when I set it up, not audyssey.

Your center channel is on the floor, your side surrounds are below your head and directly next to you, and you back surrounds are about 6"-12" from your head.

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post #33 of 121 Old 05-20-2012, 08:33 AM
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If the only thing changed was the receiver, from an 875 to a 5009, then it must be the 5009 either giving improper results with the XT32 for whatever reasons as opposed to the previous XT...or the 5009 is internally askew in the tone controls. There is no reason other than malfunction or setup error for the 875 to play nice with the exact same Klipsch speakers in the same room and the 5009 to not do so. Obviously if when running in Stereo without Audyssey, the system is still too bright as opposed to the 875, then we know the culprit.

My first suspicion would still be the Audyssey setup process itself. Is the Mic a different one than the 875 with a different setup procedure/orientation? I know everyone thinks they have a handle on these things but I have found it is very easy to miss something, even something very mundane.

HomeTheater1010, you should first cover all hard/reflective surfaces with covers and blankets while running Audyssey. This will yield a dampened soundfield which will still interact with the room after EQ/calibration but be much less bright. You can then tweak the tone controls if still needed...but any needed adjustments should be much less drastic.



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post #34 of 121 Old 05-20-2012, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by HomeTheater1010 View Post

What about adding an Emotiva amp to make it sound Warmer ?

Amp is not going to add any coloration. If you use the Onkyo as a pre-pro, then adding an amp is not going to change the sound. AVR's may have some subtle differences as they have to do some processing. Even a simple D/A involves some processing.

I have used different AVR's and I just dont find that one AVR is brighter than the other. May be you are more sensitive. I have owned PSB T65, Klipsch RF82 (and now I have the Klipsch KG towers) and I found the PSB T65 a bit warmer than the Klipsch. I dont use Audyssey for serious 2ch music. I use the manual EQ on my Denon 3310 to tone down the mids as I like a laid back sound and use Antimode 8033 for the sub. Klipsch's in general have a pronounced mid range, I guess due to the horn?. I reduce the midrange (fundamental and the harmonics) and this makes the sound a lot smoother even though it will make the highs and lows a bit more pronounced as the mid is reduced. I reduce the sub level a couple of db but dont change the highs as I like the highs.

The Onkyo's do not have the Audyssey Flat like the Denon's. Audyssey Reference (as in Onkyo) rolls off the highs. So it is not surprising that you find it better with Audyssey. Why did your previous Onkyo didnt sound brighter? I dont know :-)
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post #35 of 121 Old 05-20-2012, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by UNICRON-WMD View Post

Your center channel is on the floor, your side surrounds are below your head and directly next to you, and you back surrounds are about 6"-12" from your head.

UNICRON-WMD, the center channel on the floor is where most configurations show the center channel being even the Denon GUI shows the speaker on the floor.

The back surrounds are a full 3' from the main listening position not 6".

The side surrounds are not below listening height, they are at ear level and often times I have diffused the sound by towing it inward, away from the listening position. However since I favor music, I prefer the direct dispersion pattern opposed to the diffused.

Regardless of where you think the speakers should be, especially in a room as mine that's 15' X 15' and is a living room first, HT second, the Audyssey should not have any problem because the speakers are not setup in any way to cause problem. I know, I have hand calibrated my system with a SPL meter and have gotten great results from 3 receivers without Audyssey. This Audyssey is the only system that degraded the sound very significantly in all areas, tone control (EQ and inccorrect crossovers), surround channel level, sub polarity, and bass output (subwoofer level).

One thing I noticed after the Audyssey is that while I painstakingly took the time in my previous hand calibration, to move the subwoofer in a spot to take away standing waves along with getting the subwoofer to integrate correctly with the speakers as in level and polarity, the Audyssey had this so mucked up, it sounded like a cheap PC speaker system.

I had very very loud, one tone, boomy bass when I moved my head forward about 6" and very weak base when I moved my head backward by a few inches. Bass was very disconnected and was very VERY localized. It was not integrated at all with the main speakers as they sounded like completely separate channels or entities, playing different source material. I have never experienced this at all and was horrified to hear this out of my system.

I quickly re-calibrated the system by hand, put in my subwoofer polarity at 180 degrees out of phase, changed my crossovers to the response I measured them rolling off (slightly above the roll off point to add no holes) and my god, I was back to perfect bass response. I could move my head anywhere and the bass stayed the same, nice tight response, very extended low bass, seemless integration with the main speakers acting as one or bass from the mains and not a separate entity in the room, creating just bass on it's own.


Since my room isn't made out of glass and marble or do I have walls coated in carpet, I was very disappointed in the results. Add on to the fact that many here want me to jump through hoops to help the system offer decent sound, asks the question, WHY?! I have great sound without this Audyssey system. I have lost all trust in this system and think it's loyal following is from a marketing stand point.

The reason I posted this is so HomeTheater1010 does not give up on the receiver as this poor sound quality could all be a result of the Audyssey. Seems the complaints I've read are from owners who had a previous system without Audyssey, that produced excellent sound, changing to an Audyssey system and then have poor sound. Then people stating it's the room, it's your speaker setup, it's the alignment of the moon. If the system has to be catered to, to even produce tolerable sound quality, it's a failed system. The system is suppose to make up for room problems. If everyones rooms were good, then a "ROOM CORRECTION" system wouldn't be needed.

I'm just wondering how Yamaha's YPOA system works as well as Pioneers MCACC room correction schemes. They can't be any worse from what I found.

I may rerun another test, but I will never trust that it's more accurate than being disengaged. I've alway been a purist and this is the reason why.

HomeTheater1010,

Just make sure your Audyssey is completely turned off including the Dynamic EQ and the Dynamic Volume and you may be surprised to find the same (or even better) performance than you had with your previous receiver.

Good luck on your Onkyo receiver. It would be a pity to lose such a great deal if it can be corrected with an 'off selection'.
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post #36 of 121 Old 05-20-2012, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post


I have used different AVR's and I just dont find that one AVR is brighter than the other.

I disagree.
I think for example Pioneer Elite sounds different than say Yamaha.
Not sure if the OP has thought about it much, but have you given much thought to a Pioneer Elite AVR? I think they have a very warm sound to them. In my opinion, if you are not going separates and you want to tame the brightness of Klipsch, I'd look real hard at the Pioneer line-up.
Klipsch speakers are on the bright side in my opinion. Way back when, when I was demoing speakers, I was looking at Klipsch, NHT, Paradign and Rocket speakers and ended up going with the rockets over the runner up Paradigns. Klipsch were just way too bright at loud volumes for my ears.

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post #37 of 121 Old 05-20-2012, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeTheater1010 View Post

What about adding an Emotiva amp to make it sound Warmer ?

As with what other posters have said if you had the correct sound or sound you were ok with and you only bumped to a higher end model of the same brand then it has to be a setting or defect.
As for adding an amp if it changes the sound then I would not trust that brand after all a good amps job is to amplify the pe-amp 's output not color the sound.
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post #38 of 121 Old 05-20-2012, 09:43 AM
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@oldschoolmetal...

and you have measurements to back that all up, correct? please post them... i'd be especially interested in a 20-200hz 1/24th smoothed graph, before and after...

just as a note: when the VAST majority have success with something, and a few son't, it's generally an issue with the "few"...

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post #39 of 121 Old 05-20-2012, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSchoolMETAL View Post

UNICRON-WMD, the center channel on the floor is where most configurations show the center channel being even the Denon GUI shows the speaker on the floor.

The back surrounds are a full 3' from the main listening position not 6".

The side surrounds are not below listening height, they are at ear level and often times I have diffused the sound by towing it inward, away from the listening position. However since I favor music, I prefer the direct dispersion pattern opposed to the diffused.

Regardless of where you think the speakers should be, especially in a room as mine that's 15' X 15' and is a living room first, HT second, the Audyssey should not have any problem because the speakers are not setup in any way to cause problem. I know, I have hand calibrated my system with a SPL meter and have gotten great results from 3 receivers without Audyssey. This Audyssey is the only system that degraded the sound very significantly in all areas, tone control (EQ and inccorrect crossovers), surround channel level, sub polarity, and bass output (subwoofer level).

One thing I noticed after the Audyssey is that while I painstakingly took the time in my previous hand calibration, to move the subwoofer in a spot to take away standing waves along with getting the subwoofer to integrate correctly with the speakers as in level and polarity, the Audyssey had this so mucked up, it sounded like a cheap PC speaker system.

I had very very loud, one tone, boomy bass when I moved my head forward about 6" and very weak base when I moved my head backward by a few inches. Bass was very disconnected and was very VERY localized. It was not integrated at all with the main speakers as they sounded like completely separate channels or entities, playing different source material. I have never experienced this at all and was horrified to hear this out of my system.

I quickly re-calibrated the system by hand, put in my subwoofer polarity at 180 degrees out of phase, changed my crossovers to the response I measured them rolling off (slightly above the roll off point to add no holes) and my god, I was back to perfect bass response. I could move my head anywhere and the bass stayed the same, nice tight response, very extended low bass, seemless integration with the main speakers acting as one or bass from the mains and not a separate entity in the room, creating just bass on it's own.


Since my room isn't made out of glass and marble or do I have walls coated in carpet, I was very disappointed in the results. Add on to the fact that many here want me to jump through hoops to help the system offer decent sound, asks the question, WHY?! I have great sound without this Audyssey system. I have lost all trust in this system and think it's loyal following is from a marketing stand point.

The reason I posted this is so HomeTheater1010 does not give up on the receiver as this poor sound quality could all be a result of the Audyssey. Seems the complaints I've read are from owners who had a previous system without Audyssey, that produced excellent sound, changing to an Audyssey system and then have poor sound. Then people stating it's the room, it's your speaker setup, it's the alignment of the moon. If the system has to be catered to, to even produce tolerable sound quality, it's a failed system. The system is suppose to make up for room problems. If everyones rooms were good, then a "ROOM CORRECTION" system wouldn't be needed.

HomeTheater1010,

Just make sure your Audyssey is completely turned off including the Dynamic EQ and the Dynamic Volume and you may be surprised to find the same (or even better) performance than you had with your previous receiver.

I'm just wondering how Yamaha's YPOA system works as well as Pioneers MCACC room correction schemes. They can't be any worse from what I found.

I may rerun another test, but I will never trust that it's more accurate than being disengaged. I've alway been a purist and this is the reason why.

Good luck on your Onkyo receiver. It would be a pity to lose such a great deal if it can be corrected with an 'off selection'.

I do more lurking these days on this site than I do posting and I can tell you that YOUR OPINIONS of room correction is defiantly in the very low minority around the HT audio community.
I don't mean this as a slam to you, but your web name Oldschool' might give us some indication as to your opinions about room correction.

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post #40 of 121 Old 05-20-2012, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

The Onkyo's do not have the Audyssey Flat like the Denon's. Audyssey Reference (as in Onkyo) rolls off the highs. So it is not surprising that you find it better with Audyssey. Why did your previous Onkyo didnt sound brighter? I dont know :-)

They are the same with different labels: Onkyo's Movie = Denon's Reference, Onkyo's Music = Denon's Flat

Yes, the reference added Re-Eq into their processing scheme so it should be left in Music/Flat mode for people who want accurate sound reproduction.

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Originally Posted by Audyssey View Post

The Audyssey Reference target curve setting (also called Movie in some products) makes the appropriate correction at high frequencies to alleviate this problem. A slight roll-off is introduced that restores the balance between direct and reflected sound.

The Audyssey Flat setting (also called Music in some products) uses the MultEQ filters in the same way as the Audyssey curve, but it does not apply a high frequency roll-off. This setting is appropriate for very small or highly treated rooms in which the listener is seated quite close to the loudspeakers. It is also recommended for all rooms when the receiver is in THX processing mode. This allows THX re-equalization to operate exactly as it was intended.

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post #41 of 121 Old 05-20-2012, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by suffolk112000 View Post

I disagree.
I think for example Pioneer Elite sounds different than say Yamaha.
Not sure if the OP has thought about it much, but have you given much thought to a Pioneer Elite AVR? I think they have a very warm sound to them. In my opinion, if you are not going separates and you want to tame the brightness of Klipsch, I'd look real hard at the Pioneer line-up.
Klipsch speakers are on the bright side in my opinion. Way back when, when I was demoing speakers, I was looking at Klipsch, NHT, Paradign and Rocket speakers and ended up going with the rockets over the runner up Paradigns. Klipsch were just way too bright at loud volumes for my ears.

Without any DSP/room correction/manual EQ applied, AVR's dont sound significantly different. If they are, they sure are adding coloration to the sound and I would stay away from any AVR or amp that is adding coloration to the sound. There may be subtle differences if one is sensitive enough to detect them but not day-night kind of differences. I have tried Denon, Onkyo, Marantz, Yamaha and I cant recall one being significantly different than the other in the sound quality. There is no point in comparing different AVR's with any DSP applied. They should be compared in the "Pure Direct" model. I guess this has been discussed a lot in many threads. It is just personal preference (subjective) so not worth splitting hair. If someone finds something too bright, it is too bright for him/her :-) There may be many parameters that could make the difference. Simple thing like level mismatch could result in some "perceived" sound quality difference. Unless the OP still has the previous Onkyo, it may not be easy to pin point the cause for the "perceived" brightness.
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post #42 of 121 Old 05-20-2012, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suffolk112000 View Post

I disagree.
I think for example Pioneer Elite sounds different than say Yamaha.
Not sure if the OP has thought about it much, but have you given much thought to a Pioneer Elite AVR? I think they have a very warm sound to them. In my opinion, if you are not going separates and you want to tame the brightness of Klipsch, I'd look real hard at the Pioneer line-up.
.

This makes no real sense, no more than assuming that within a "brand" that all models/offerings will sound alike. You think each boardroom at each of these companies has a specific way of making all their gear sound alike ourside of the dsp/dac employed? That sounds like more work than most companies would like to bother with. Is there a secret scientist who applies this magic keeping everything within the brand sounding "warm" or "bright" or whatever? Now, if you like the particular dsp or dac or room correction in one model over another, that makes more sense...

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post #43 of 121 Old 05-20-2012, 03:45 PM - Thread Starter
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A lot of good stuff thx all....... But I have said I have kept the Audyssey off and I EQ it myself and if sounds better ..... It's the same setup as with my 875 .... Nothing is different , how do I reset processor is that good to do ? Could it be that much clearer ... That don't make sense but it also sounds like its missing something and yes it's a different Audyssey mic !
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post #44 of 121 Old 05-20-2012, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

Without any DSP/room correction/manual EQ applied, AVR's dont sound significantly different. If they are, they sure are adding coloration to the sound and I would stay away from any AVR or amp that is adding coloration to the sound. There may be subtle differences if one is sensitive enough to detect them but not day-night kind of differences. I have tried Denon, Onkyo, Marantz, Yamaha and I cant recall one being significantly different than the other in the sound quality. There is no point in comparing different AVR's with any DSP applied. They should be compared in the "Pure Direct" model. I guess this has been discussed a lot in many threads. It is just personal preference (subjective) so not worth splitting hair. If someone finds something too bright, it is too bright for him/her :-) There may be many parameters that could make the difference. Simple thing like level mismatch could result in some "perceived" sound quality difference. Unless the OP still has the previous Onkyo, it may not be easy to pin point the cause for the "perceived" brightness.

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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

This makes no real sense, no more than assuming that within a "brand" that all models/offerings will sound alike. You think each boardroom at each of these companies has a specific way of making all their gear sound alike ourside of the dsp/dac employed? That sounds like more work than most companies would like to bother with. Is there a secret scientist who applies this magic keeping everything within the brand sounding "warm" or "bright" or whatever? Now, if you like the particular dsp or dac or room correction in one model over another, that makes more sense...

Well, we WILL DISAGREE then.
If all AVR’s have the same tonal quality, then why spend the money on the supposed higher end models?
Why not just go to Best Buy and buy a $300 AVR and call it good?
I do hear a difference between say a Pioneer Elite, than I do a higher end Yamaha.

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post #45 of 121 Old 05-20-2012, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeTheater1010 View Post

A lot of good stuff thx all....... But I have said I have kept the Audyssey off and I EQ it myself and if sounds better ..... It's the same setup as with my 875 .... Nothing is different , how do I reset processor is that good to do ? Could it be that much clearer ... That don't make sense but it also sounds like its missing something and yes it's a different Audyssey mic !


Maybe..
The Audyssey mic is defective...
There was a situation awhile back they had a run of defectives....
Thats why they instituted a titer QA program...

Just my $0.02..
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post #46 of 121 Old 05-20-2012, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by HomeTheater1010 View Post

A lot of good stuff thx all....... But I have said I have kept the Audyssey off and I EQ it myself and if sounds better ..... It's the same setup as with my 875 .... Nothing is different , how do I reset processor is that good to do ? Could it be that much clearer ... That don't make sense but it also sounds like its missing something and yes it's a different Audyssey mic !

I'd still love to see you try a Pioneer Elite receiver with those Klipsch.
I am a true believer that due to tonal qualities, some AVR's just don't match up well with certain speaker brands.
When I was getting my Denon 3805, I was also looking at Klipsch, so we set up a Yamaha receiver with the combo and played one of the Kill Bill sword scenes and it was unbearably ear splitting.

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post #47 of 121 Old 05-20-2012, 04:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Just hook up the Onkyo 875 just to see and it's not the speakers sounds Amazing as ever .... So could it be Settings or the onkyo 5009 is just that much Brighter than the 875 .... That don't sound right either ... What the F is going on !
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What's going on is the new Onkyo is probably defective. Exchange it.
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post #49 of 121 Old 05-20-2012, 08:18 PM
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What's going on is the new Onkyo is probably defective. Exchange it.

Always a possibility...just why are you getting such a good deal?

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post #50 of 121 Old 05-20-2012, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by HomeTheater1010 View Post

Just hook up the Onkyo 875 just to see and it's not the speakers sounds Amazing as ever .... So could it be Settings or the onkyo 5009 is just that much Brighter than the 875 .... That don't sound right either ... What the F is going on !

Wait a minute, what do you mean the settings? You're comparing what?

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post #51 of 121 Old 05-20-2012, 09:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Cause I'm Italian ....lol I get good deals on all my stuff... Who cares I just need help ..lol
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post #52 of 121 Old 05-20-2012, 10:49 PM
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Cause I'm Italian ....lol I get good deals on all my stuff... Who cares I just need help ..lol

Okay, the Italian defense okay I'll make assumptions from there...

Now, what about settings on the old avr vs the new when you compare?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Okay, the Italian defense okay I'll make assumptions from there...

Now, what about settings on the old avr vs the new when you compare?

He hasn't even reset the processor yet. I take back my suggestion, and good luck.
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post #54 of 121 Old 05-21-2012, 07:00 AM
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From the manual for factor default.

"To reset the AV receiver to its factory defaults, turn
it on and, while holding down VCR/DVR, press
ON/STANDBY. Clear will appear on the display
and the AV receiver will enter standby mode."
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post #55 of 121 Old 05-21-2012, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suffolk112000 View Post

Well, we WILL DISAGREE then.
If all AVR's have the same tonal quality, then why spend the money on the supposed higher end models?
Why not just go to Best Buy and buy a $300 AVR and call it good?
I do hear a difference between say a Pioneer Elite, than I do a higher end Yamaha.

Low end models may have cheap parts (which can also affect the sound quality), less features etc. etc. The higher price is also for all the bells and whistles which many users may not care for. I have the Denon 3310 and I dont care about the video or any network features or XM etc. I got it for good deal (just over $700 shipped a couple of years ago). If I move to the 4311 I doubt if I would hear a significant difference in SQ as I am not going to use XT32 for serious 2ch listening.
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post #56 of 121 Old 05-21-2012, 08:54 AM
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Ensure you have the latest firmware installed on the Receiver and update it if you don't.

Also, might be worth checking here if your receiver is part of the defective batch.
_http://www.uk.onkyo.com/en/product-recall-80305.html_
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post #57 of 121 Old 05-21-2012, 09:29 AM
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Room reflections/reverb can create or magnify brightness exponentially. Bare hardwood or tile flooring, ceilings, walls, windows, etc.
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post #58 of 121 Old 05-21-2012, 10:16 AM
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OP: I am curious if you did an A-B comparison of your old and new AVR in the "pure direct" mode for 2ch music.
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post #59 of 121 Old 05-21-2012, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbobuick86 View Post

Room reflections/reverb can create or magnify brightness exponentially. Bare hardwood or tile flooring, ceilings, walls, windows, etc.

Sure but if the speakers are in the same room, the room effect would have been there with the old AVR too.

I would do an A-B with the 2 AVR's in a pure direct mode and levels matched.
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post #60 of 121 Old 05-21-2012, 02:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Runnin go relax ! And it not the room or the setup ....it's the receiver.
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