Is there any 300W/Ch 7.1 AVR out there? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 44 Old 05-20-2012, 02:16 AM - Thread Starter
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We have a Yamaha RX-V650 AVR and it's just not got enough power. This is our 3rd Yamaha AVR and we are very happy with the quality of sound and reliability, it's just not got enough power. (We also have a Polk PSW202 (50W/ch single).

I like the Ypao and most of the Yamaha features.

I did not see anything on the Yamaha website that offered 300W/chl. I'm also upgrading the Polk SW to something more powerful, but have not yet decided on which sub(s).

Does anyone have a recommendation for a replacement? (note: I really do mean 300w/c 20-20K rated into 8 ohms (not "dynamic" or "peak" but RMS 300 watts.)

Thanks
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post #2 of 44 Old 05-20-2012, 02:27 AM
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You won't find any AVR that will put out that kind of power < $1000, rather if you feel you need that kind of power simply connect a 300W external amp (eg. Emotiva XPA-2) to the main zone preouts on the 650.

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post #3 of 44 Old 05-20-2012, 02:40 AM - Thread Starter
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I can spend about $2k. I have found them for $3500, but I was hoping I didn't have to spend that much. Thanks for the suggestion on the external amp. That's actually a good idea. I'll look into that. I was looking at the outlaw 2200. Anyone have any experience with it here? (I'll seach in just a second.)
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post #4 of 44 Old 05-20-2012, 02:51 AM
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^^^
Just curious as to which AVR you have found for $3500 that puts out 300 watts?
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post #5 of 44 Old 05-20-2012, 03:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dowop View Post

^^^
Just curious as to which AVR you have found for $3500 that puts out 300 watts?

same here....

Get an external AMP or AMPS and call it a day.......

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post #6 of 44 Old 05-20-2012, 03:50 AM - Thread Starter
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I misspoke. I was referring to the outlaw 7900
(http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/7900.html) but then I'd have to add a preamp. That was before the suggestion above of using my pre-outs.

I looked at the emotiva and it's a little more expensive to get 300watts x 7. But still nice and I could go a little at a time.

But I looked at the Yamaha commercial stuff and it's another option. Yamaha P3500S 350W/channel x 2 for $529. So I could get 4 of those for just over $2000 and use the pre-outs on my receiver. That'd put 900W to the sub and 350W to the mains, surrounds and back surrounds, and could use the reciever to power the center channel.

I think that'd work.
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post #7 of 44 Old 05-20-2012, 04:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by network23 View Post

We have a Yamaha RX-V650 AVR and it's just not got enough power. This is our 3rd Yamaha AVR and we are very happy with the quality of sound and reliability, it's just not got enough power.

You are basing that on what personal experiences?

I doubt that you are going to find a receiver with a true 300 wpc, because it would be too heavy, has the potential to generate too much heat, and could easily demand more power than should be taken from a 15 amp outlet.

Most of the weight in a receiver is due to its power output. The other functions easily weigh less than 10 pounds. Take the weight of your current receiver, knock off 10 pounds and triple it. Then add the 10 pounds back in. What do you get? I get 28-10 = 18 * 3 = 54 +10 = 64 pounds. Stop by the home improvement store and heft a bag of concrete mix to simulate the experience of hefting this baby around!

From a heat standpoint, the receiver is speced at 440 watts, but that is only for fraction of full power output. Three times that is 1320 watts. This would be like putting a space heater into your equipment cabinet. It would need a fan like a space heater.

Adding a 200-300 wpc outboard amp wouldn't give you much more than a psychological benefit. 300 watts is only about 4.5 dB more than 100 watts, and it takes 2-3 times that (600-1000 wpc) to give the perception of merely twice as loud. Then we have questions about whether or not your speakers can take that kind of power.

If you want more impact, speaker upgrades might be the way to go.
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post #8 of 44 Old 05-20-2012, 04:36 AM - Thread Starter
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You are right, a 300w/c AVR is hard to find, and that's why I posted. I have been looking and didn't find what I was seeking. However the other posts here set me in the right direction: Just use the AVR I have and hook external amps to it's pre-outs. Perfectly good solution. I just didn't think out of the box enough. (Have a lot on my mind.)

I expect well over 2000Watts of heat so I built the entertainment center with it's own exhaust fan which vents outside and upgraded the power to handle it. (2 high current 20amp outlets to power 2 Cyberpower PP2200SW UPS which will supply power to the system.)


Thanks.
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post #9 of 44 Old 05-20-2012, 09:49 AM
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2000 watts of heat?? Why?

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #10 of 44 Old 05-20-2012, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by network23 View Post

You are right, a 300w/c AVR is hard to find, and that's why I posted. I have been looking and didn't find what I was seeking. However the other posts here set me in the right direction: Just use the AVR I have and hook external amps to it's pre-outs. Perfectly good solution. I just didn't think out of the box enough. (Have a lot on my mind.)

I expect well over 2000Watts of heat so I built the entertainment center with it's own exhaust fan which vents outside and upgraded the power to handle it. (2 high current 20amp outlets to power 2 Cyberpower PP2200SW UPS which will supply power to the system.)

Your diligence and investment is in some sense laudable, but probably uncommon enough that nobody wants to bet product development and marketing costs on there being enough more pople like you! ;-)

Power amps really only make sense if their power increases in increments of 5 or 10. That way there would be some possibility of you actually hearing a real difference due to the extra power.
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post #11 of 44 Old 05-20-2012, 10:51 AM
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200 WPC is a lot easier to obtain in an external amp than 300. FWIW, a true 200WPC will sound virtually identical to 300 with any speaker I can think of.

When I went from 200WPC to 400WPC, the audible difference with the same speakers was extremely small, and really only apparent at ear-splitting levels.

Keep in mind that AVR power ratings are pretty different from external amp ratings. Look for an amp that's rated for a 4u continuous output that's close to 2x its 8u rating, and you're assured to get all the honest power you really need.

And FWIW, there are amps out there that will generate less heat than your average AVR while producing 4x more power.
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post #12 of 44 Old 05-20-2012, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by network23 View Post

I can spend about $2k. I have found them for $3500, but I was hoping I didn't have to spend that much. Thanks for the suggestion on the external amp. That's actually a good idea. I'll look into that. I was looking at the outlaw 2200. Anyone have any experience with it here? (I'll seach in just a second.)

I have an Outlaw 770 (200X7) amp that is at the moment hooked to a Denon 3805 receiver. Been a great combo for me. I am looking at getting a true pre-pro soon.
Get an external amp to hook with your AVR then you will know you are actually getting the rated power.

Domino's donÂt fall all at once, they fall one at a time...
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post #13 of 44 Old 05-20-2012, 11:25 AM
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The Outlaw 7900 is an Outlaw amp (300X7) for your to consider.
http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/7900.html
From the product info page So powerful that it needs dual 15A breakers
I mean if that doesn't speak for itself, I don't know what does.

I have the older version of this amp, its 200X7. It's al you will need.
http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/7700.html


Emotiva has several good selections as well.
http://shop.emotiva.com/
I've heard their stuff paired with various combinations and it sounds great!!
Ether way you go, will be better than going with a 300 watt AVR.
Just my opinion.

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post #14 of 44 Old 05-20-2012, 12:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

2000 watts of heat?? Why?


Mitsubishi-WD-92840 DLP bulbs run very hot, trying to keep it running cool. 215W rated.
Current Yamaha RX-V650 400 Watts
Directv box 50W
the rest of the components, 100W or so.
300 watts/channel x 5 or 7 channels will put it over 2000 watts total easily.
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post #15 of 44 Old 05-20-2012, 12:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

200 WPC is a lot easier to obtain in an external amp than 300. FWIW, a true 200WPC will sound virtually identical to 300 with any speaker I can think of.

When I went from 200WPC to 400WPC, the audible difference with the same speakers was extremely small, and really only apparent at ear-splitting levels.

Keep in mind that AVR power ratings are pretty different from external amp ratings. Look for an amp that's rated for a 4u continuous output that's close to 2x its 8u rating, and you're assured to get all the honest power you really need.

And FWIW, there are amps out there that will generate less heat than your average AVR while producing 4x more power.

Yes, I'm aware of the difference between AVR and power amp ratings. For instance, the RX-V650 ir rated at 95 x 7 or 665 Watts. However it's only drawing 400W according to the back sticker. So I know it'm not really getting 95Watts to all 7 channels. Probably 45-55W maybe. Going to a true 300watts per channel system with good overhead should be about 6 times the power I'm getting now. As it is, the RX-V650 shuts down do to overheating when watching a "big" movie or listening to music.

Going from "about 50watts/ch" to a true 300watts/ch should give me at least 6dB more and a few more with good overhead.

While I'd like 12 dB more I can't afford 1200Watts per channel at this time. So I'm settling on 300watts/ch with some strong dynamic overhead.
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post #16 of 44 Old 05-20-2012, 01:16 PM
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2 questions:

1) What size is your room?

2) What speakers (list impedance please too) have you been using on the AVR's you tested?
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post #17 of 44 Old 05-20-2012, 01:24 PM
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I was about to ask a similar question. What speakers do you have that need 300 watts per channel? And how many ohms are they?

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post #18 of 44 Old 05-20-2012, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by network23 View Post

Mitsubishi-WD-92840 DLP bulbs run very hot, trying to keep it running cool. 215W rated.
Current Yamaha RX-V650 400 Watts
Directv box 50W
the rest of the components, 100W or so.
300 watts/channel x 5 or 7 channels will put it over 2000 watts total easily.

your avr doesn't use 400 watts continuous...

what are you running where you would have 300 watts continuous to 7 channels?

two things:

- 300 watts continuous would imply a BOATLOAD on peaks (i.e. you couldn't do it, at least with any consumer level equipment)...

- you realize what type of draw from the wall that would imply?

- chris

 

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post #19 of 44 Old 05-20-2012, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by network23 View Post

***
Does anyone have a recommendation for a replacement? (note: I really do mean 300w/c 20-20K rated into 8 ohms (not "dynamic" or "peak" but RMS 300 watts.)

Not gonna happen.

The reason is simply than an amp that powerful won't get safety certification from an OSHA-approved Nationally Recognized Testing Lab (NRTL), and at least for now few AVR's lack NRTL certification. (Common NRTL's are UL, ETL, CSA, and TÜV Rheinland, though there are others as well.) That is because when actually pushed to their rated output, as Arny noted they will simply require more current than domestic wiring will provide.

Many separate amp makers are willing to cut corners and forgo NRTL safety certification. That's why you'll see 300W/ch multichannel Class AB separate amps. I don't think non-NRTL certified amps belong in a home.

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post #20 of 44 Old 05-20-2012, 02:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcsoul View Post

2 questions:

1) What size is your room?

2) What speakers (list impedance please too) have you been using on the AVR's you tested?

Room is 27 x 37 with 16' ceilings

So far I've been using Polk SDA CRS, 2 pair wired in series (8ohms total) I had them run in parallel but the amp would not keep up. Changing them to series solved the problem with overheating/shut down, but seriously effected the vol.

Also have the polk center channel speaker and polk surround (2 sets)
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post #21 of 44 Old 05-20-2012, 02:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

your avr doesn't use 400 watts continuous...

what are you running where you would have 300 watts continuous to 7 channels?

two things:

- 300 watts continuous would imply a BOATLOAD on peaks (i.e. you couldn't do it, at least with any consumer level equipment)...

- you realize what type of draw from the wall that would imply?

yes, I have 2 20 amp circuits with the high amp plugs going to 2 cyberpower 2200 UPS which will supply to the amps. Plus 1 15 amp which is on it's own UPS which will cover the TV, directv box, cd, dvd/blu ray, etc.

I do not needs 300 w/c continous. What I need is overhead to handle the big stuff. ie, peak power demand. Personally I always design for 12dB overhead, but like I said, I can't afford that at this time, so I'm going with 6dB or so for now.

Also I'm designing for the possiblity of using Mag 12's in place of the polks. I do not think I will do this, but I might, and I want the power just in case.
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post #22 of 44 Old 05-20-2012, 03:00 PM
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I say check out used ATI amps. The AT1505 can be had for about $450-$500 and has 150watts at 8ohms. Your speakers are 6ohms and that should be around 200watts per channel then. Your speakers are rated at 200watts.

If you really want more power on the cheap, I run a AT1502 bridged in mono at 450watts at 8ohms for my center channel. It can be had for $200 or so used.

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post #23 of 44 Old 05-20-2012, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by network23 View Post

You are right, a 300w/c AVR is hard to find, and that's why I posted. I have been looking and didn't find what I was seeking. However the other posts here set me in the right direction: Just use the AVR I have and hook external amps to it's pre-outs. Perfectly good solution. I just didn't think out of the box enough. (Have a lot on my mind.)

I expect well over 2000Watts of heat so I built the entertainment center with it's own exhaust fan which vents outside and upgraded the power to handle it. (2 high current 20amp outlets to power 2 Cyberpower PP2200SW UPS which will supply power to the system.)


Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by network23 View Post

yes, I have 2 20 amp circuits with the high amp plugs going to 2 cyberpower 2200 UPS which will supply to the amps. Plus 1 15 amp which is on it's own UPS which will cover the TV, directv box, cd, dvd/blu ray, etc.

I do not needs 300 w/c continous. What I need is overhead to handle the big stuff. ie, peak power demand. Personally I always design for 12dB overhead, but like I said, I can't afford that at this time, so I'm going with 6dB or so for now.

Also I'm designing for the possiblity of using Mag 12's in place of the polks. I do not think I will do this, but I might, and I want the power just in case.

bolded part...

what on earth are you talking about? either it's 20 amps, or it's not... current IS amperage... there's no "higher current" version of a 20 amp circuit...

- chris

 

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post #24 of 44 Old 05-20-2012, 03:38 PM
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The other method of getting higher sound levels in your large room would be to replace your speakers with ones which have much better efficiency. Speakers with higher impedance would also help to reduce the amplifiers' wattage requirements. Although I'm sure you have an emotional attachment to your Polks, it might be time to consider auditioning replacements.

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post #25 of 44 Old 05-20-2012, 03:54 PM
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You will not be able to tell the difference in ordinary listening. If you insist on that kind of power, you could use seven crown xls 1500 ($2100 total) class D amps and bridge each for 7x1500 watts into a four ohm load or 7x1050 watts into an eight ohm load. They run cool and have quiet fans.
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post #26 of 44 Old 05-20-2012, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by network23 View Post

Mitsubishi-WD-92840 DLP bulbs run very hot, trying to keep it running cool. 215W rated.
Current Yamaha RX-V650 400 Watts
Directv box 50W
the rest of the components, 100W or so.
300 watts/channel x 5 or 7 channels will put it over 2000 watts total easily.

The Yamaha won't put out 400 watts of heat. That would be like 6 60 watt light bulbs. I don't believe it.

A 300x7 watt amp, unless it was class A, which would be crazy, will put out nothing like 2100 watts. My amps run cool to the touch. For movies, expect little average power used. If you want rock concert levels, that's different maybe. But still, I would not expect anything like 2100 watts. I am not an engineer, so won't calculate system efficiencies.

But I think it's safe to say, your heat level estimations are wrong.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #27 of 44 Old 05-20-2012, 07:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

bolded part...

what on earth are you talking about? either it's 20 amps, or it's not... current IS amperage... there's no "higher current" version of a 20 amp circuit...

20 amp circuits have a special plug:



You can read more here: http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/pro.../PP2200SW.html

It's a high current plug.

What you are thinking of is a 20 amp breaker protecting a circuit with standard 15amp recepticables. But if you really have one device potentially pulling 20 amps all by itself, it'll have a special plug and hence special receptical to plug it into.
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post #28 of 44 Old 05-20-2012, 07:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davecraze View Post

You will not be able to tell the difference in ordinary listening. If you insist on that kind of power, you could use seven crown xls 1500 ($2100 total) class D amps and bridge each for 7x1500 watts into a four ohm load or 7x1050 watts into an eight ohm load. They run cool and have quiet fans.

I will look into the crown stuff to see if it suits my needs.

Thanks
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post #29 of 44 Old 05-20-2012, 07:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

But I think it's safe to say, your heat level estimations are wrong.

Great! Then I'll be "wrong" on the safe side.
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post #30 of 44 Old 05-20-2012, 08:08 PM
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Heat is the "waste" from an amp, it's power that's not output to speakers. You can actually calculate the wattage of the heat generated, but it's not worth going into here. Safe to say that a hot amp is an inefficient amp. Many amps require no special cooling at all, certainly far less than an AVR does.
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