New Denons, features getting less and less. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 45 Old 05-21-2012, 11:11 AM - Thread Starter
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I currently owned a Denon AVR-2310ci and over time I have grown to love it more and more. It's also probably one of the last great ones Denon had produced because it came with a Phono Input, Optical Output for digital recordings and two AC outlets for connecting extra components, not to mentioned an array of analog audio inputs. I received news from Denon through e-mail and saw that they had rolled out a series of newer models (the newer '13') and I am most disappointed to find out that Denon had dropped even more features this year. With the exception of the higher 3313 model, two important features were omitted on the 2313, 2113 and other subsequent lower-end models:

1.) AM tuner,
2.) the trademark Denon 'input/output speaker indicators' which all disappeared!

I guess you can kiss your AM news radio goodbye! The 3313ci still seem to withheld the 'output speaker channels' on the panel but still missing the original 'input' source. These newer ones are in the dark, which means you would not know (visually) what the sources are; whether they were originally produced in Dolby 2.0, 2.1 or 5.1 because of the absence of output channel indicators. I know this might sound a bit silly and although after all it is a 'receiver', how can anyone not know what they're hearing? I can assure you that if the original source was Dolby 2.1 instead of 2.0 you wouldn't know the difference unless it is being displayed. This is more than just a stereo system and its main purpose is to decode audio for video.

Examples:
On my AVR-2310ci...



on the new 3313ci: only one output indicator...



Completely omitted on the new 2313ci.
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post #2 of 45 Old 05-21-2012, 11:35 AM
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More like "amp section getting less and less". Every compare the size of the transformer and quality of output stages to these newest models vs. ones from 5-10 years ago?

When they keep adding more software-type features and decoding capabilities, something has got to give. The amps go first, even before displays.
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post #3 of 45 Old 05-21-2012, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

More like "amp section getting less and less". Every compare the size of the transformer and quality of output stages to these newest models vs. ones from 5-10 years ago?

When they keep adding more software-type features and decoding capabilities, something has got to give. The amps go first, even before displays.

I bet that has to do with all the channels they keep adding we started with 5.1 (which as an installer is the mainstay) then 7.1 now 11.2.
I can see it now 11 mediocre speakers powered by anemic amps will equate in distortion compounded by short life span.
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post #4 of 45 Old 05-21-2012, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oztech View Post

I bet that has to do with all the channels they keep adding we started with 5.1 (which as an installer is the mainstay) then 7.1 now 11.2.
I can see it now 11 mediocre speakers powered by anemic amps will equate in distortion compounded by short life span.

Well, mainly going from 5 amps to 7, typically. But somehow the amp section/power supply/output stages keep getting smaller and lighter. It's not Moore's Law here.. you still need big capacitors and cores to deliver big sound. And all these new receivers fall short.
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post #5 of 45 Old 05-21-2012, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 80sGuy View Post

I currently owned a Denon AVR-2310ci and over time I have grown to love it more and more. It's also probably one of the last great ones Denon had produced because it came with a Phono Input, Optical Output for digital recordings and two AC outlets for connecting extra components, not to mentioned an array of analog audio inputs. I received news from Denon through e-mail and saw that they had rolled out a series of newer models (the newer '13') and I am most disappointed to find out that Denon had dropped even more features this year. With the exception of the higher 3313 model, two important features were omitted on the 2313, 2113 and other subsequent lower-end models:

1.) AM tuner,
2.) the trademark Denon 'input/output speaker indicators' which all disappeared!

I guess you can kiss your AM news radio goodbye! The 3313ci still seem to withheld the 'output speaker channels' on the panel but still missing the original 'input' source. These newer ones are in the dark, which means you would not know (visually) what the sources are; whether they were originally produced in Dolby 2.0, 2.1 or 5.1 because of the absence of output channel indicators. I know this might sound a bit silly and although after all it is a 'receiver', how can anyone not know what they're hearing? I can assure you that if the original source was Dolby 2.1 instead of 2.0 you wouldn't know the difference unless it is being displayed. This is more than just a stereo system and its main purpose is to decode audio for video.

[/IMG]

in that case, why would you care?

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #6 of 45 Old 05-21-2012, 02:26 PM
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Don't most of the receivers display input/output via their GUI? Personally, I wish they would kill the entire display since I have passed on more than one receiver because I couldn't completely turn off its display.
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post #7 of 45 Old 05-21-2012, 02:47 PM
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Website shows the 3313 at 26.5#, 2313 at 24# and the 2113 at 20.9#. My current receiver is 64#. They just may have reduced the power supply some more! ;-) I sure do like the new design from the pictures.
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post #8 of 45 Old 05-21-2012, 02:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

in that case, why would you care?

Maybe there's a bit of confusion from my analogy. Why wouldn't I? Because I'd like to know if my materials are being 'artificially' and pro-logically decoded as appose to listening to the real deal. For example, if you're listening to a music format wouldn't you not want to know whether the source was mp3, WAV or red-book CD file? Also, I tend to enjoy my music utilizing DTS NEO 6 Music.
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post #9 of 45 Old 05-21-2012, 03:11 PM
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Loss of AM radio: meh, means nothing to me. Much better music for me via internet radio, which also almost always sounds much better.

Loss of channel input display: a kinda nice feature, but not a big loss IMO.

Loss of channel OUTput display - now that's an irritating omission.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

Don't most of the receivers display input/output via their GUI? Personally, I wish they would kill the entire display since I have passed on more than one receiver because I couldn't completely turn off its display.

OTOH.......for other people, having to find the remote (and possibly having to wipe picante sauce off of hand first ), finding the right button and then pushing it to find some bit of info is really bothersome compared to just having to move their eyeballs to look at a front-mounted display.
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post #10 of 45 Old 05-21-2012, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 80sGuy View Post

Maybe there's a bit of confusion from my analogy. Why wouldn't I? Because I'd like to know if my materials are being 'artificially' and pro-logically decoded as appose to listening to the real deal. For example, if you're listening to a music format wouldn't you not want to know whether the source was mp3, WAV or red-book CD file? Also, I tend to enjoy my music utilizing DTS NEO 6 Music.

but you assured us you wouldn't be able to tell the difference...

i guess i don't see the big deal here, but then again, i can't see my avr anyway...

edit: should have been a not ...

- chris

 

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post #11 of 45 Old 05-21-2012, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 80sGuy View Post

Maybe there's a bit of confusion from my analogy. Why wouldn't I? Because I'd like to know if my materials are being 'artificially' and pro-logically decoded as appose to listening to the real deal. For example, if you're listening to a music format wouldn't you not want to know whether the source was mp3, WAV or red-book CD file? Also, I tend to enjoy my music utilizing DTS NEO 6 Music.


Wouldn't you know if you the source was mp3, wav or red-book based on the device you're using? Unless you have a HTPC of course.

If I'm playing CD's I know they are redbook CD's. Blu Ray and DVD's are obvious.

I wouldn't care if a song was mp3 vs wav as long as it was recorded at a high bitrate.

My receivers show 2 channels lit up on the output side for 2 channels sources and all 5 plus SW for 5.1 sources.

I've never had a problem determining if I'm listening to 2 channel vs 5.1 signals on any of the receivers I've had and that includes Denon, HK, Yamaha, Onkyo, Newcastle or Marantz receivers.

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post #12 of 45 Old 05-21-2012, 03:52 PM
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I agrre it's a big loss the input/output channel indicators i hope they will keep it on the 4520 that is coming later this year. if i see the AVR-3313 i am scarred they remove it on that one too.

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Firmware: BE 8284-A, Make Day C09, DSP 8250, IP 070518
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post #13 of 45 Old 05-21-2012, 04:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

but you assured us you wouldn't be able to tell the difference...

i guess i don't see the big deal here, but then again, i can't see my avr anyway...

edit: should have been a not ...

My bad .
I should specify that 'you' as in someone other than myself. I'm sure most of us know, for example this is handy when watching a DVD, BD or stream something and immediately letting you know whether your source is 2.0, 2.1 or 5.1 and not have to wait for everything else to crash and burn half way into the movie just to find out that it's been on 'stereo' all those time. There had been odd instances especially when I'm streaming Netflix using a WD Media player; almost half way through I noticed my movie was on 2-channel all along. The movie was a melo-drama and didn't have much effects for me to catch on earlier but good thing for the input/output display from my AVR-2310, I immediately made the switch to 5.1 via the WD remote. Certain movies are more subtle than others. Although it can easily be detected, but sometimes when we rush into things and forget to choose -- like watching a drama with Dolby 5.1 compared to an action flick like 'Transformers' with Dolby 5.1 surround is a whole different ball game.
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post #14 of 45 Old 05-21-2012, 04:41 PM
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Maybe you guys should write Denon. It appears they are taking no user input for their decisions.
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post #15 of 45 Old 05-21-2012, 04:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donutfan View Post

Loss of AM radio: meh, means nothing to me. Much better music for me via internet radio, which also almost always sounds much better.

Loss of channel input display: a kinda nice feature, but not a big loss IMO.

Loss of channel OUTput display - now that's an irritating omission.

OTOH.......for other people, having to find the remote (and possibly having to wipe picante sauce off of hand first ), finding the right button and then pushing it to find some bit of info is really bothersome compared to just having to move their eyeballs to look at a front-mounted display.

There's a few AM news stations I listen to regularly whenever I get the chance, one of them is KFWB News98 (AM 980) which delivers news like no other. I couldn't find any news on FM and I don't think there's one.
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post #16 of 45 Old 05-21-2012, 05:15 PM
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Loss of AM radio would be a big deal to me because I listen to SF Giants baseball games. Can't listen to those on the internet without paying. And the KNBR website blacks out the baseball game broadcast.

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post #17 of 45 Old 05-21-2012, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 80sGuy View Post

There's a few AM news stations I listen to regularly whenever I get the chance, one of them is KFWB News98 (AM 980) which delivers news like no other. I couldn't find any news on FM and I don't think there's one.

Ahh, you must live in SoCal. The NoCal equivalent is KCBS all news radio. We actually have a FM version now too.

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post #18 of 45 Old 05-21-2012, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post

Loss of AM radio would be a big deal to me because I listen to SF Giants baseball games. Can't listen to those on the internet without paying. And the KNBR website blacks out the baseball game broadcast.

yea, live sports is a little harder... i subscribe to mlb.tv, so that's a non-issue for baseball, as you get the mlb at bat app for "free" this year... which is actually very cool for a displaced red sox fan...

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post #19 of 45 Old 05-21-2012, 05:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post

Ahh, you must live in SoCal. The NoCal equivalent is KCBS all news radio. We actually have a FM version now too.

Yup! Classic news radio at its best! I listen to them in the car and whenever I can at home. Decades ago......my grandfather used to have this station and his country music on all day through his little transistor radio, and as a kid the station had imbedded in me for life. So yeah I'm kinda p!ssed at Denon for doing this (sentimental issue here). I was seriously thinking about getting a newer unit.
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post #20 of 45 Old 05-21-2012, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

i subscribe to mlb.tv, so that's a non-issue for baseball, as you get the mlb at bat app for "free" this year... which is actually very cool for a displaced red sox fan...

I'm glad the 4311 still has AM radio because my Halos are getting tougher and tougher to watch .

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post #21 of 45 Old 05-21-2012, 10:58 PM
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I just bought the AVR-2312ci because I seen just how bad the new AVR-**13** series receivers are. They have added a few features that are fluff or vapor ware and have deleted much MUCH more. Never seen a device called a 'receiver' that deletes the tuner or half of it's functions like the AVR-**13 did with the deletion of the AM tuner.

I have a AVR-3803 and an AVR-2312ci.

The amp section in the AVR-2312ci is no where near the amp section in the AVR-3803 but it's pretty similar.

Now here's the immediate differences, the much larger transformer in the AVR-3803 and more heat sinks. The caps look similar.

Now the size of the transformer doesn't mean a lot when comparing receivers that are 9 years difference. Transformers have gotten smaller and more efficient through the materials they use. I remember how heavy our 1978 CRT 19" color TV was. Our later 1988 CRT 25" color TV was much lighter.

Now the AVR-2312ci definitely doesn't have the amount of heat sinks that the AVR-3803 does. The AVR-3803 gets luke warm while the AVR-2312ci could cook an egg on top. Guess Denon felt the temperature that the AVR-2312ci produces, is acceptable to the health of the receiver. I did not see a fan like my previous RX-V995 had. Not a rear fan but a fan mounted in the components like a PC's Processor fan.

I will say that the AVR-2312ci can power my speakers just as well as the AVR-3803 did. If fact I can establish ear pain soon on the volume dial with the AVR-2312ci than with the AVR-3803. Likely just gain differences.
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post #22 of 45 Old 05-22-2012, 05:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venomous View Post

Maybe you guys should write Denon. It appears they are taking no user input for their decisions.

"Appears"? More like it is clearly what they are doing. Not singling them out - this behaviour is a broad problem in the consumer electronics industry and in particular the Japanese ones.

Culture of customer engagement is totally absent. Which is showing up as the all struggle to demonstrate value on an era where customers are more empowered and they are all communicating together on the web, yet zero communication/engagement from these companies. Just a one-way barrage when they want to peddle rehashed and gutted product.

But you'd think they'd be careful about removing features like this on an AV control unit. Cust cutting is all the rage but if you cut in the wrong place, then you're degrading value of the product, not just the cost. And the things that generate value are what earns you a profit.
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post #23 of 45 Old 05-22-2012, 05:23 AM
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of course, it is always possible that denon HAS done their market research, and you guys are outliers...

just something to consider...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #24 of 45 Old 05-22-2012, 07:28 AM
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I think Denon is finding a good balance with their new receivers. They put enough features in their receivers while maintaining a decent amp section. Sure, they could pack in more stuff, but then their receivers would only reach 30wpc into 7 channels and likely die out after a couple of years.
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post #25 of 45 Old 05-22-2012, 07:30 AM
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AM radios are still out there. For example........

Sangean
Sony
Tivoli Audio
Yamaha tuners

And don't forget internet "radios", basically media player software paired up with a speaker, an amp and an ethernet/wi-fi tranceiver, all in one box.
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post #26 of 45 Old 05-22-2012, 07:42 AM
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+1 for the sucking of the XX13 lineup. I've decided to get an older model instead of one of the XX13 for exactly this reason.

Internet talk radio (like Bloomberg radio or KYW for the NJ folk) sounds like crap compared to regular AM radio let alone HD AM radio.
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post #27 of 45 Old 05-22-2012, 08:29 AM
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^^^

somehow, i don't find "talk radio" to be a "sound quality" application...

- chris

 

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post #28 of 45 Old 05-22-2012, 08:42 AM
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fortunately for all who are complaining, you have other options... there would appear to be the features you are looking for on avr's made by other cem's...

so you are in luck...

- chris

 

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http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #29 of 45 Old 05-22-2012, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

of course, it is always possible that denon HAS done their market research, and you guys are outliers...

Come on, Chris, get with the program. Where is your righteous indignation? If I need it, then EVERYONE needs it. And anyone who is willing to live without it is not the power user that I am.



AJ
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post #30 of 45 Old 05-22-2012, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaguar36 View Post

Internet talk radio (like Bloomberg radio or KYW for the NJ folk) sounds like crap compared to regular AM radio let alone HD AM radio.

If the streaming data rate is something around 32kbps like many talk shows use, yes, it will sound lousy. That's the fault of the broadcaster though i.e. being a cheapskate, not the format itself.

That reminds me: many (most?) A/V receivers now include networking capability which usually includes the ability to stream internet radio stations, including all those independent & internet-only stations - many of which are non-profit - that exist all around the world. So get ready to spend hours discovering them with your remote!
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