Onkyo TX-NR818 "official" owner's thread discussion - Page 184 - AVS Forum
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post #5491 of 9843 Old 03-05-2013, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

I would call 5.1 over satellite " barely adequate" not "great". smile.gif

If he wants to really experience what XT32 can do he needs to get a blu-ray player.

I agree 100%.
I only mentioned great in the context of his experience between 5.1 ans 2ch, not as to compared to bluray or DVD.
Sorry about the confusion.

As far as getting good 2ch matrix sound, I get good results with a Pioneer AVR and Dolby Pro Logic IIz.
Saved me the headache I was getting with my cable box.

Blurays are DTS Master HD or TrueHD only. cool.gif
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post #5492 of 9843 Old 03-05-2013, 11:25 AM
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Does anyone have any suggestions about bi-amping vs. adding a pair of front heights?

I currently have a 5.1 setup with the front towers bi-amping. I was thinking of adding some front heights but that would mean i can no longer bi-amp (I will not be purchasing an external amp) to do both. Any recommendation one way or the other? Do the front heights make a big difference?

Thank You
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post #5493 of 9843 Old 03-05-2013, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SantiP80 View Post

Does anyone have any suggestions about bi-amping vs. adding a pair of front heights?

I currently have a 5.1 setup with the front towers bi-amping. I was thinking of adding some front heights but that would mean i can no longer bi-amp (I will not be purchasing an external amp) to do both. Any recommendation one way or the other? Do the front heights make a big difference?

Thank You

Passive biamping of the sort you describe is a waste of time and wire.

 

Proper biamping requires active electronic crossovers between the pre and power amp and the passive crossovers in the speakers disabled (thus invalidating the warranty as the least of the problems).

 

Height speakers, used with a DSP like Dolby PLiiz, Audyssey DSX or DTS Neo:X can give a very good effect and is worth trying.

 

Read more here:

 

Passive Biamping - AKA 'Fool's Biamping'

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post #5494 of 9843 Old 03-05-2013, 12:37 PM
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I mentioned recently that I would graph the differences between Audyssey Dynamic EQ and THX Loudness Plus, two technologies that do essentially  the same thing. The graphs are posted below for various settings of the MV. The graphs show the Centre channel of my system and are 1/24th smoothed. I have not graphed the surrounds as the differences are similar. As expected, THX LP shows a similar effect on the FR curve, but is a lot less aggressive than DEQ.

 

 

 

 

 

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post #5495 of 9843 Old 03-05-2013, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caesar1 View Post

Not sure what this means. Are you answering yes or no as to whethe PLIIx, NEO, etc. are applied when straight decode is used?

Answer was "no" smile.gif

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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post #5496 of 9843 Old 03-05-2013, 02:20 PM
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Here's a basic question from a guy with a 5.1 system, moving to 7.1 soon--because I only have room for 7.1.

Does the Onkyo 818 have any means to expand a 5.1 DTS/DD soundtrack to make use of a 7.1 speaker setup with side and rear surrounds? I am sill puzzing through the alphabet soup of DTS Neo, Audyssey DSX, etc. I'm still unsure how side + rear surrounds may be used with 5.1 source material. I do not have the means to add front Wide or High speakers, and that's mostly what I see references to.
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post #5497 of 9843 Old 03-05-2013, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by horseflesh View Post

Here's a basic question from a guy with a 5.1 system, moving to 7.1 soon--because I only have room for 7.1.

Does the Onkyo 818 have any means to expand a 5.1 DTS/DD soundtrack to make use of a 7.1 speaker setup with side and rear surrounds? I am sill puzzing through the alphabet soup of DTS Neo, Audyssey DSX, etc. I'm still unsure how side + rear surrounds may be used with 5.1 source material. I do not have the means to add front Wide or High speakers, and that's mostly what I see references to.

In a nutshell, yes!
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post #5498 of 9843 Old 03-05-2013, 03:16 PM
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horseflesh:

Honestly, if you're in "tight belt" mode financially, I don't think you'll get a lot of audio enhancement out of a pair of rear surrounds. On the other hand, if your room is reasonably large and you have room to place some width speakers (and the budget already allocated for that pair of speakers you were going to use in the rear), I'd try the speakers in both rear surround and width positions. I frankly think width speakers do MUCH more in a compatible setting than rears.
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post #5499 of 9843 Old 03-05-2013, 03:51 PM
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Unfortunately I don't think I can place a pair of wides in my theater room, the layout just isn't amenable to it. But I will do some reading, as I had never even considered it. Thanks for the info.
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post #5500 of 9843 Old 03-05-2013, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by horseflesh View Post

Here's a basic question from a guy with a 5.1 system, moving to 7.1 soon--because I only have room for 7.1.

Does the Onkyo 818 have any means to expand a 5.1 DTS/DD soundtrack to make use of a 7.1 speaker setup with side and rear surrounds? I am sill puzzing through the alphabet soup of DTS Neo, Audyssey DSX, etc. I'm still unsure how side + rear surrounds may be used with 5.1 source material. I do not have the means to add front Wide or High speakers, and that's mostly what I see references to.

 

Dolby PLIIx Movie/Music will expand (upmix) 5.1 to 7.1 (or even 9.1) and is featured on pretty much every AVR made. It will also expand stereo (2.1) in the same way. Just select PLIIx DSP when playing a DD/DTS 5.1 track and it will expand automatically.

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post #5501 of 9843 Old 03-05-2013, 05:01 PM
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Great info! Thanks for posting it.

What is reference level when you say MV is -X dB? 85dB?

I quickly converted this info into a basic table, with samples at the low end (20 kHz) and high end (20 kHz)
Code:
              THX          Aud      Diff          THX        Aud          Diff 
              20 Hz       20 Hz                   20 kH     20 kHz
-5 dB         85 dB       87 dB      2 dB         69 dB     76 dB       7 dB
-9.5 dB       82 dB       86 dB      4 dB         65 dB     73 dB       8 dB      
-15 dB        76 dB       82 dB      6 dB         60 dB     67 dB       7 dB
-20 dB        72 dB       80 dB      8 dB         55 dB     63 dB       8 dB     


So it's interesting the Audyssey EQ is always about 7 or 8 dB higher in the high end, but it increases by about 2 dB for every -5 dB of MV at the low end...

The numbers are quick approximations from the graphs.

It would be nice to have a graph with neither Audyssey EQ or THX Loudness enabled wink.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I mentioned recently that I would graph the differences between Audyssey Dynamic EQ and THX Loudness Plus, two technologies that do essentially  the same thing. The graphs are posted below for various settings of the MV. The graphs show the Centre channel of my system and are 1/24th smoothed. I have not graphed the surrounds as the differences are similar. As expected, THX LP shows a similar effect on the FR curve, but is a lot less aggressive than DEQ.












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post #5502 of 9843 Old 03-05-2013, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMyers View Post

Great info! Thanks for posting it.

What is reference level when you say MV is -X dB? 85dB?

I quickly converted this info into a basic table, with samples at the low end (20 kHz) and high end (20 kHz)
Code:
              THX          Aud      Diff          THX        Aud          Diff 
              20 Hz       20 Hz                   20 kH     20 kHz
-5 dB         85 dB       87 dB      2 dB         69 dB     76 dB       7 dB
-9.5 dB       82 dB       86 dB      4 dB         65 dB     73 dB       8 dB      
-15 dB        76 dB       82 dB      6 dB         60 dB     67 dB       7 dB
-20 dB        72 dB       80 dB      8 dB         55 dB     63 dB       8 dB     


So it's interesting the Audyssey EQ is always about 7 or 8 dB higher in the high end, but it increases by about 2 dB for every -5 dB of MV at the low end...

The numbers are quick approximations from the graphs.

It would be nice to have a graph with neither Audyssey EQ or THX Loudness enabled wink.gif

 

Reference is, er, Reference :)  0dB.

 

Here's a graph showing neither engaged, and both engaged, all on one graph. I didn't include the 'nothing engaged' data because it is just a comparison of the two alternative technologies.

 

 

 

On the above graph, purple is neither tech engaged, brown is THX LP and green is DEQ. Unfortunately I didn't make a note of the MV level when capturing the data, but you get the idea.

 

I think we always knew that DEQ was more aggressive - you can tell just by listening, but it's useful to see it graphed. THX LP is a good alternative for anyone who finds that DEQ is just too aggressive for their systems, rooms or tastes. Of course, you can use Reference Level Offset with DEQ, which you can't do with THX LP and that 'softens' the aggression somewhat, depending on the MV setting typically in use.

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post #5503 of 9843 Old 03-05-2013, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Passive biamping of the sort you describe is a waste of time and wire.

Proper biamping requires active electronic crossovers between the pre and power amp and the passive crossovers in the speakers disabled (thus invalidating the warranty as the least of the problems).

Height speakers, used with a DSP like Dolby PLiiz, Audyssey DSX or DTS Neo:X can give a very good effect and is worth trying.

Read more here:

Passive Biamping - AKA 'Fool's Biamping'

AMEN brother!

Yes to heights and/or wides, no to bi-amping.
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post #5504 of 9843 Old 03-05-2013, 05:14 PM
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Regarding my reference question... I meant... when at 0 dB, what SPL did you expect?

Having the "neither tech" engaged allows one to see how much they adjust from the reference signal. For example, while THX is less than Audyssey, I didn't know whether THX was still +20 over the expected reference...

Unless I'm reading that wrong, it looks like the order of the 3 colors is different on the left vs. right?
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post #5505 of 9843 Old 03-05-2013, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raaj View Post

J&R is an authorized Onkyo dealer, so you will get the full warranty. PowersellerNYC is not listed as an authorized online dealer on Onkyo' site, so my guess is that you would not get an Onkyo warranty through them. FWIW, I bought mine from J&R when they were running that promo price through Google Shopping.

Thanks Raaj. I think I may give this a try shortly since it's still showing that nice price on google shop.
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post #5506 of 9843 Old 03-05-2013, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Passive biamping of the sort you describe is a waste of time and wire.

Proper biamping requires active electronic crossovers between the pre and power amp and the passive crossovers in the speakers disabled (thus invalidating the warranty as the least of the problems).

Height speakers, used with a DSP like Dolby PLiiz, Audyssey DSX or DTS Neo:X can give a very good effect and is worth trying.

Read more here:

Passive Biamping - AKA 'Fool's Biamping'

Hmmm ok, all i know about bi-amping is what the owners manual say for the past two receivers I purchased. They both said it would result in better sound quality so just assumed there must be something behind it. I figured you are using more amps so more power driving the speakers could result in better sound quality.

So now that that is settled, what will give me the best bang for my buck if I add two speakers? Front heights, front wides, something else?? Thoughts?
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post #5507 of 9843 Old 03-05-2013, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by horseflesh View Post

Unfortunately I don't think I can place a pair of wides in my theater room, the layout just isn't amenable to it. But I will do some reading, as I had never even considered it. Thanks for the info.

X2, no way I can do wides, got the fireplace on one side and an opening on the other, so I'm going with heights and rears. I already have the speakers and 2 channel amp, just need to finish some work on the room, then I can hook it all up!
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post #5508 of 9843 Old 03-05-2013, 10:53 PM
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MadMyers,

Here are the curves Dynamic EQ applies at different master volume settings:



I've used a noise as a test signal. When measuring with sweeps the results might be off due to the dynamic nature of Dynamic EQ.
The process is as follows:
- Using a RTA and a noise signal, measure the preamp out at different master volume settings
- Normalize all curves to reference level

Markus

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post #5509 of 9843 Old 03-06-2013, 03:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BWD69 View Post

X2, no way I can do wides, got the fireplace on one side and an opening on the other, so I'm going with heights and rears. I already have the speakers and 2 channel amp, just need to finish some work on the room, then I can hook it all up!

i have highs and surround back i too have a fire place to the right of my tv i love this set up, as you can see in my avatar its an old picture but you can see the fireplace next to the tv.
I'm running in DTS:Neo X Cinema listening mode 9.1

My main setup
PN60E8000 Plus evolution 2013Kit + Directv genie + Panasonic 3D blu-ray player + Onkyo TX-NR 818 9.2 using Onkyo M-5010 2-Channel Amplifier for wides.
MY DEN
PN51F5500 + Directv Genie + Panasonic 3D blu-ray player + Onkyo TX-NR 616 7.2
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post #5510 of 9843 Old 03-06-2013, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Passive biamping of the sort you describe is a waste of time and wire.

Proper biamping requires active electronic crossovers between the pre and power amp and the passive crossovers in the speakers disabled (thus invalidating the warranty as the least of the problems).

Height speakers, used with a DSP like Dolby PLiiz, Audyssey DSX or DTS Neo:X can give a very good effect and is worth trying.

Read more here:

Passive Biamping - AKA 'Fool's Biamping'

Well, if I have got it right, 818 can provide the proper bi-amping you are mentioning. It has a digital crossover mode and discrete amplifying channels to feed separately HF and LF in a speaker that provides double connectors. I can't see why the warranty will be invalidated with such a connection, not to mention that coverage of speaker warranty is always at the discrete mood of the provider.
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post #5511 of 9843 Old 03-06-2013, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by vmantas View Post


Well, if I have got it right, 818 can provide the proper bi-amping you are mentioning. It has a digital crossover mode and discrete amplifying channels to feed separately HF and LF in a speaker that provides double connectors. I can't see why the warranty will be invalidated with such a connection, not to mention that coverage of speaker warranty is always at the discrete mood of the provider.

Active bi-amping, which the 818 also supports, does offer benefits. However you would have to remove the crossovers from your speakers. Passive bi-amping is worthless.

Run some searches, plenty of info on the topic out there.
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post #5512 of 9843 Old 03-06-2013, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vmantas View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Passive biamping of the sort you describe is a waste of time and wire.

Proper biamping requires active electronic crossovers between the pre and power amp and the passive crossovers in the speakers disabled (thus invalidating the warranty as the least of the problems).

Height speakers, used with a DSP like Dolby PLiiz, Audyssey DSX or DTS Neo:X can give a very good effect and is worth trying.

Read more here:

Passive Biamping - AKA 'Fool's Biamping'

Well, if I have got it right, 818 can provide the proper bi-amping you are mentioning. It has a digital crossover mode and discrete amplifying channels to feed separately HF and LF in a speaker that provides double connectors. I can't see why the warranty will be invalidated with such a connection, not to mention that coverage of speaker warranty is always at the discrete mood of the provider.

 

Opening up your speakers and ripping out the crossover is not going to endear the manufacturer to you if you ever need to make a warranty claim. And unless you do that, you can't actively biamp the speakers. 

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post #5513 of 9843 Old 03-06-2013, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SantiP80 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Passive biamping of the sort you describe is a waste of time and wire.

Proper biamping requires active electronic crossovers between the pre and power amp and the passive crossovers in the speakers disabled (thus invalidating the warranty as the least of the problems).

Height speakers, used with a DSP like Dolby PLiiz, Audyssey DSX or DTS Neo:X can give a very good effect and is worth trying.

Read more here:

Passive Biamping - AKA 'Fool's Biamping'

Hmmm ok, all i know about bi-amping is what the owners manual say for the past two receivers I purchased. They both said it would result in better sound quality so just assumed there must be something behind it. I figured you are using more amps so more power driving the speakers could result in better sound quality.

So now that that is settled, what will give me the best bang for my buck if I add two speakers? Front heights, front wides, something else?? Thoughts?

 

No - you are not using more power to drive the speakers - that's a myth. They provide this sort of 'fool's biamping' for marketing purposes. Passive biamping, as it's called is pointless - that article explains why.

 

Conventional wisdom is Wides before Heights. Personally I think that applies more to music than movies. I prefer Heights for movies - there is a lot of ambience 'up there' whereas expanding the soundstage to way off the sides of the screen doesn't seem to work too well, for me anyway. It's all preference so there's no right and wrong on this one.

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post #5514 of 9843 Old 03-06-2013, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMyers View Post

Regarding my reference question... I meant... when at 0 dB, what SPL did you expect?

Having the "neither tech" engaged allows one to see how much they adjust from the reference signal. For example, while THX is less than Audyssey, I didn't know whether THX was still +20 over the expected reference...

Unless I'm reading that wrong, it looks like the order of the 3 colors is different on the left vs. right?

Ignore the order of the colours as such - I just made them whatever so they showed up better on the graphs - there's no graph to graph consistency.  Sorry - I just read your post again and don't follow you - left and right what?  The graphs are all of my centre channel plus subs.

 

0dB Reference means that the loudest sound you can get in the satellites when watching a movie is 105dB and 115dB in the sub channel. It doesn't relate in any way to those graohs - they are purely for comparison of the effect of DEQ vs THX LP.

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post #5515 of 9843 Old 03-06-2013, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Ignore the order of the colours as such - I just made them whatever so they showed up better on the graphs - there's no graph to graph consistency.  Sorry - I just read your post again and don't follow you - left and right what?  The graphs are all of my centre channel plus subs.

0dB Reference means that the loudest sound you can get in the satellites when watching a movie is 105dB and 115dB in the sub channel. It doesn't relate in any way to those graohs - they are purely for comparison of the effect of DEQ vs THX LP.

Sorry... Overloaded the terms left/right. By left i meant the low 20 Hz and by right I meant the high 20 kHz. The three colored lines are in different order when compared between the 20 Hz and the 20 kHz...
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post #5516 of 9843 Old 03-06-2013, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMyers View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Ignore the order of the colours as such - I just made them whatever so they showed up better on the graphs - there's no graph to graph consistency.  Sorry - I just read your post again and don't follow you - left and right what?  The graphs are all of my centre channel plus subs.

0dB Reference means that the loudest sound you can get in the satellites when watching a movie is 105dB and 115dB in the sub channel. It doesn't relate in any way to those graohs - they are purely for comparison of the effect of DEQ vs THX LP.

Sorry... Overloaded the terms left/right. By left i meant the low 20 Hz and by right I meant the high 20 kHz. The three colored lines are in different order when compared between the 20 Hz and the 20 kHz...

 

Ah yes... got you now. That's odd isn't it?  it may be my crude offsetting. I'll look at the three measurements and see what is shown when they aren't all crowded together like that.

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post #5517 of 9843 Old 03-06-2013, 05:50 PM
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Hi AVS,

This is my first post here so go gently on me please.

I have the NR818 coupled with five B&W M1 speakers and the B&W ASW 610 subwoofer and am hoping to get some advice on my speaker settings on the NR818.

First of all what would the best frequency to have all speakers set to under 'speaker configuration'? I currently have all five on 70Hz is this ok?

Under 'speaker settings' I have the 'speaker impedance' set as 6ohms and 'speaker type (front)' as Normal is this also ok?

Any advice would be appreciated and I would like to have everything running at optimal listening conditions smile.gif

Cheers!

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post #5518 of 9843 Old 03-06-2013, 05:57 PM
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I suggest you set all five to 80hz and let the sub-woofer do all the work. If you feel a lack of lower end with the speakers, adjust from there.

Home Theatre:
Onkyo TX-NR818
Onkyo C7030

DALI Zensor 7, Zensor 1, Vokal, DALI E-12F
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post #5519 of 9843 Old 03-06-2013, 06:33 PM
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Any chance
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMyers View Post

Great info! Thanks for posting it.

What is reference level when you say MV is -X dB? 85dB?

I quickly converted this info into a basic table, with samples at the low end (20 kHz) and high end (20 kHz)
Code:
              THX          Aud      Diff          THX        Aud          Diff 
              20 Hz       20 Hz                   20 kH     20 kHz
-5 dB         85 dB       87 dB      2 dB         69 dB     76 dB       7 dB
-9.5 dB       82 dB       86 dB      4 dB         65 dB     73 dB       8 dB      
-15 dB        76 dB       82 dB      6 dB         60 dB     67 dB       7 dB
-20 dB        72 dB       80 dB      8 dB         55 dB     63 dB       8 dB     


So it's interesting the Audyssey EQ is always about 7 or 8 dB higher in the high end, but it increases by about 2 dB for every -5 dB of MV at the low end...

The numbers are quick approximations from the graphs.

It would be nice to have a graph with neither Audyssey EQ or THX Loudness enabled wink.gif

Any chance you would do this again for just surround channel. I am really curious what dyn eq does to those at lower levels. And maybe measure also at like -30 level too.

Thanks!

Just enjoy HD in whatever form you can (Sat, Cable, D-VHS, OTA, HD DVD, or BD).
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post #5520 of 9843 Old 03-06-2013, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theoneofgod View Post

I suggest you set all five to 80hz and let the sub-woofer do all the work. If you feel a lack of lower end with the speakers, adjust from there.

Ok cheers done that, 80Hz comes up as THX on the NR818 btw

Any idea what the LFE frequency of my subwoofer should be set at? It's currently on 120Hz

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