Onkyo TX-NR818 "official" owner's thread discussion - Page 286 - AVS Forum
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post #8551 of 9854 Old 12-06-2013, 04:58 PM
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After running the Audessey room calibration my sub cannot handle what the 818 deemed the safe level. I have a HSU STF-1 which has a frequency response of 32-200 Hz, +/- 2 dB. The 818 told me to set the level to 75, but that appears to be too much for this little guy. How can I correctly calibrate the sub? Thanks in advance.
Sam
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post #8552 of 9854 Old 12-06-2013, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Olinski View Post


I believe this preamp is great. The fact that Onkyo uses proper mechanical relays and the Xt32 is spectacular. I just wish I had a little more knowledge regarding the AV receiver deception and how these units are not 4 ohm rated. Marantz AV receiver regardless of cost rate their units at a minimum 6 ohm and do not lie for marketing reasons and sales. The expectation is put on the customer to know the difference between "continuous 6 Ohm" and " certified 4 ohm" performance. This is very deceptive. I was even mixed typing the quotes. I can say at this point though I like the unit in all but this issue I will never buy an Onkyo receiver again. Not because I don't believe it is a good product but because I absolutely and completely do not believe in supporting companies that are deceptive, which I believe this is a definite the case. When someone goes to say Best Buy or Future Shop and reads the specs for these systems they say clear as day 4 ohm rated and the simple fact is they are not. I'm sure there will be some [URL=mailto:As@#le]As@#le[/URL] out there that says something like why would you buy at such and such, well, that reason for eugenics has missed the point. The only bright side to this whole situation is after turning off these 8 Ohm mis-rated amplifiers and spending a whole pile of money on amps I now require. I have acquired a good preamp. As I'm sure many have seen the price of most decent preamps with XT32 I suppose this is an acceptable compromise. Ladies and Gentleman there is not a lot of point to having specs if the manufacturer lies to the distributor who passes the information on down the line. For that one reason and one reason alone Onkyo can suck it. Not for a bad product but for a product that it sold as something it is not. Good Day.

Ryan,

I was considering this AVR, but your posts have me looking elsewhere. Out of curiosity, is your relay engaging while watching something that doesn't change surround formats? As others have stated, the relays click when surround formats change from 5.1 to 2.0 - happens to me on every receiver I've owned when watching TV and the commercials come on. As I understand what your saying, yours is clicking when watching a continuous surround format (blu-ray maybe) due to the load, setting into 4 ohm mode. Is it also changing to 4 ohm in the menu when accessed? Also, your saying that while the amp states it is capable of a 4 ohm load, it truly isn't? I'm very curious to see what your tech says. Maybe separates are the way to go.

fdsfds
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post #8553 of 9854 Old 12-06-2013, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post

Ralph, unfortunately it sound like you might be on to it.


Love you reviews BTW.

Greetings,

Thanks gadgtfreek... smile.gif

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Isn't it still under warranty? And if your credit card extends the warranty by 1 year, you might be able to get your money back.


It is still under warranty. Frankly I am at the point where I really don't feel like going through the hassle of dealing with Onkyo support etc. I am still worn down after dealing with them in order to get my 3 month old 5508 set up. I would up reaching out to an industry contact which sped things up.

The unit works flawlessly other than having to cycle power once after initial start up. I will wait and see how things progress...

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post #8554 of 9854 Old 12-06-2013, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by NODES View Post


I would hold off...might find better deals on the newer Onkyo stuff in 6 months time...

I bought my 818 from Onkyo, fee shipping, for $500 on sale in May. So heck yeah, I would wait 6 months.
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post #8555 of 9854 Old 12-06-2013, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Riddle View Post


Ryan,

I was considering this AVR, but your posts have me looking elsewhere. Out of curiosity, is your relay engaging while watching something that doesn't change surround formats? As others have stated, the relays click when surround formats change from 5.1 to 2.0 - happens to me on every receiver I've owned when watching TV and the commercials come on. As I understand what your saying, yours is clicking when watching a continuous surround format (blu-ray maybe) due to the load, setting into 4 ohm mode. Is it also changing to 4 ohm in the menu when accessed? Also, your saying that while the amp states it is capable of a 4 ohm load, it truly isn't? I'm very curious to see what your tech says. Maybe separates are the way to go.

The clicking is normal and in fact a good thing. Mechanical relays are by far the best choice. The click I am referring to is directly related to the amplifier self switching to the 4 ohm setting when put under load. In short this means this amp is not rated for 4 ohms it is at best rated for 6 and to be totally stable, and  without fans 8. No amp should ever switch on its own to a 4 ohm setting as this changes your THD % significantly. In fact no amp should switch it's rail voltage at all. It is an abomination in the audio world. My issue is not with them amp/receiver so much as the company, portraying this amp as a 4 ohm spec'd unit when it most definitely is not. If you don't need to drive a 4 ohm load, and definitely not a 4 ohm or 6 ohm load with difficult phase angles in the lower frequencies it is excellent. So really if you don't need to drive anything cleanly other than a 8 ohm load. People don't want to admit they didn't get what they paid for so they will try and tell you in what ever way this amp is awesome this and awesome that but the simple fact regarding Onkyo and I'm sure other Mass market AV receivers is, it is not awesome as the spec sheet states it is, and is therefore, for all intention purposes kind of a scam. Hey I fell for it and I have been in audio for a while. Just never the mass market big box world of AV receivers.  

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post #8556 of 9854 Old 12-06-2013, 08:17 PM
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Works as a preamp to a good amp though.
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post #8557 of 9854 Old 12-07-2013, 04:39 AM
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I agree: I'm using my 818 into an Arcam power amp that runs my LCR and front heights (MK MP150 LCR) and the 818 powers the S150T surrounds. It was only meant as a stop gap, but I suspect I'll keep in in my main system longer and use the money for other upgrades such as extra MK 150 series speakers.

Zooming: Been there, done that, bought the lens...
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post #8558 of 9854 Old 12-07-2013, 04:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samhfoley View Post

After running the Audessey room calibration my sub cannot handle what the 818 deemed the safe level. I have a HSU STF-1 which has a frequency response of 32-200 Hz, +/- 2 dB. The 818 told me to set the level to 75, but that appears to be too much for this little guy. How can I correctly calibrate the sub? Thanks in advance.
Sam

 

I am confused by your question. Are you saying that your sub cannot handle a 75dB test tone?  That would be very surprising. If the sub cannot play 75dB without distress then it is either faulty or useless. As HSU are a reputable manufacturer I would suspect the former.

 

You can turn down the sub gain control so that the Audyssey test reports a lower dB level, say 70dB, but all that will happen then is that Audyssey will set the sub trim higher when the calibration is complete. The point of an Audyssey calibration is to set the system to play at Reference Level if possible. Reference Level for the LFE channel is 115dB! 

 

It is possible I may have misunderstood your question as I have never heard of a sub that cannot play 75dB.  If so, please restate the question.

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post #8559 of 9854 Old 12-07-2013, 05:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Olinski View Post

The clicking is normal and in fact a good thing. Mechanical relays are by far the best choice.

For speaker protection yes, for line level switching not so much.
Quote:
The click I am referring to is directly related to the amplifier self switching to the 4 ohm setting when put under load. In short this means this amp is not rated for 4 ohms it is at best rated for 6 and to be totally stable, and  without fans 8. No amp should ever switch on its own to a 4 ohm setting as this changes your THD % significantly.
In fact no amp should switch it's rail voltage at all. It is an abomination in the audio world.

Seems like a rant over a nit. The statement "No amp should switch it's rail voltage at all. It is an abomination in the audio world." seems very old school to me given that I have a lot of favorable experience with class G amps that do this twice per output cycle with total sonic transparency in the real world and on the test bench.

In fact changing the rail voltages such as 4 ohm/8 ohm switches do generally has minimal effects on audible THD, and even not that much on actual measured THD all other things being equal. If you've got any contrary facts, I'd like to see them.
Quote:
 My issue is not with them amp/receiver so much as the company, portraying this amp as a 4 ohm spec'd unit when it most definitely is not.

What adverse audible effects do you attribute to 4 ohm operation of this AVR?

Do you have reliable evidence such as a Power Cube test that backs up your claims?

http://ap.com/kb/show/206

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post #8560 of 9854 Old 12-07-2013, 05:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samhfoley View Post

After running the Audessey room calibration my sub cannot handle what the 818 deemed the safe level. I have a HSU STF-1 which has a frequency response of 32-200 Hz, +/- 2 dB. The 818 told me to set the level to 75, but that appears to be too much for this little guy. How can I correctly calibrate the sub? Thanks in advance.
Sam

What do you mean by "too much"?

I agree that 8 inch subs in general are sort of lame, but I'm wondering what bad thing specifically happens?
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post #8561 of 9854 Old 12-07-2013, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I am confused by your question. Are you saying that your sub cannot handle a 75dB test tone?  That would be very surprising. If the sub cannot play 75dB without distress then it is either faulty or useless. As HSU are a reputable manufacturer I would suspect the former.

You can turn down the sub gain control so that the Audyssey test reports a lower dB level, say 70dB, but all that will happen then is that Audyssey will set the sub trim higher when the calibration is complete. The point of an Audyssey calibration is to set the system to play at Reference Level if possible. Reference Level for the LFE channel is 115dB! 

It is possible I may have misunderstood your question as I have never heard of a sub that cannot play 75dB.  If so, please restate the question.

Sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear. when setting the room calibrations I was able to get the sub to play at a 75dB level (which is what it asked me to do). However, later when watching a movie, you could hear the sub couldn't handle some of the deeper bass within the soundtrack and reverberated. That is what I meant by the previous statement. Of course I can turn it down manually so it sounds better. I was just wondering if there was a better level to set it at during Audessey calibration so that it didn't do that. Thanks
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post #8562 of 9854 Old 12-07-2013, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samhfoley View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I am confused by your question. Are you saying that your sub cannot handle a 75dB test tone?  That would be very surprising. If the sub cannot play 75dB without distress then it is either faulty or useless. As HSU are a reputable manufacturer I would suspect the former.

You can turn down the sub gain control so that the Audyssey test reports a lower dB level, say 70dB, but all that will happen then is that Audyssey will set the sub trim higher when the calibration is complete. The point of an Audyssey calibration is to set the system to play at Reference Level if possible. Reference Level for the LFE channel is 115dB! 

It is possible I may have misunderstood your question as I have never heard of a sub that cannot play 75dB.  If so, please restate the question.

Sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear. when setting the room calibrations I was able to get the sub to play at a 75dB level (which is what it asked me to do). However, later when watching a movie, you could hear the sub couldn't handle some of the deeper bass within the soundtrack and reverberated. That is what I meant by the previous statement. Of course I can turn it down manually so it sounds better. I was just wondering if there was a better level to set it at during Audessey calibration so that it didn't do that. Thanks

Running the calibration and then turning the sub down would be less optimal then reducing the bass boost that Audyssey adds.

What does the VR user's manual say? Does your AVR provide any facilities for changing anything but sub level after the Audyssey run?

What would be really optimal would be obtaining a more competent sub... Not to knock the little boy, but it is only an 8" sub and the laws of physics are what they are.
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post #8563 of 9854 Old 12-07-2013, 06:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samhfoley View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I am confused by your question. Are you saying that your sub cannot handle a 75dB test tone?  That would be very surprising. If the sub cannot play 75dB without distress then it is either faulty or useless. As HSU are a reputable manufacturer I would suspect the former.

You can turn down the sub gain control so that the Audyssey test reports a lower dB level, say 70dB, but all that will happen then is that Audyssey will set the sub trim higher when the calibration is complete. The point of an Audyssey calibration is to set the system to play at Reference Level if possible. Reference Level for the LFE channel is 115dB! 

It is possible I may have misunderstood your question as I have never heard of a sub that cannot play 75dB.  If so, please restate the question.

Sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear. when setting the room calibrations I was able to get the sub to play at a 75dB level (which is what it asked me to do). However, later when watching a movie, you could hear the sub couldn't handle some of the deeper bass within the soundtrack and reverberated. That is what I meant by the previous statement. Of course I can turn it down manually so it sounds better. I was just wondering if there was a better level to set it at during Audessey calibration so that it didn't do that. Thanks

 

OK - got it.  Changing the level that Audyssey asks for in the setup (75dB) won't help because Audyssey will simply set the trim to a value to compensate for it after calibration. All that the 75dB test is for is to establish a 'ballpark' setting for the gain on the sub prior to running the cal. The 'real' level will be set on the trims after Audyssey has run.

 

It sounds like you are just asking too much of the little sub and that upgrading to a better sub, as Arny suggests, is the way ahead. There is a physical limit on what an 8 inch sub can do.

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post #8564 of 9854 Old 12-07-2013, 07:28 AM
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Is there a way to set set speakers between large and small or does xt32 determine that on its own
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post #8565 of 9854 Old 12-07-2013, 07:56 AM
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Is there a way to set set speakers between large and small or does xt32 determine that on its own

On the remote; HOME>SETUP>SPEAKER SETUP>SPEAKER CONFIGURATION

Onkyo doesn't have a 'Large/Small" option. Large would be FULL BAND and anything else (40Hz+) would be Small. If the calibration run set them to anything less than 80Hz, it's advised to raise them to at least that setting for bass management. If over 80Hz, leave them alone. Remember, you can always raise them but never lower them i.e. 100Hz to 80Hz.

Much more here:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-51779/51750#user_C
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post #8566 of 9854 Old 12-07-2013, 09:12 AM
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Ok was talking with a friend and his marantz had it so I was just checking
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post #8567 of 9854 Old 12-07-2013, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Seems like a rant over a nit. The statement "No amp should switch it's rail voltage at all. It is an abomination in the audio world." seems very old school to me given that I have a lot of favorable experience with class G amps that do this twice per output cycle with total sonic transparency in the real world and on the test bench.

In fact changing the rail voltages such as 4 ohm/8 ohm switches do generally has minimal effects on audible THD, and even not that much on actual measured THD all other things being equal. If you've got any contrary facts, I'd like to see them.
What adverse audible effects do you attribute to 4 ohm operation of this AVR?

Do you have reliable evidence such as a Power Cube test that backs up your claims?

THANK YOU arny! I chose to not get into a debate with him after his attitude early on. I will be interested to see this "proof" that he has.

Thank you for bringing your knowledge and experience to the discussion.
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post #8568 of 9854 Old 12-07-2013, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by samhfoley View Post

Wouldn't the problem have manifested itself in the last Onkyo receiver that those speakers were connected to in the same way for the past 5 years?

Got the new 818, all speakers plugged in as before and no meltdown. Doing room calibrations now. Fingers crossed!

It depends of the calibration system it shows a faulty current and it stops completely or not MCACC , XT32 detected , The Sony DCA didn't . How did it went your calibration ?

Quote:
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THANK YOU arny! I chose to not get into a debate with him after his attitude early on. I will be interested to see this "proof" that he has.

Thank you for bringing your knowledge and experience to the discussion.

He has some good points but also some not good ones like Onkyo lie ... the truth is they all lie for marketing purposes and it's not only in receivers but in generally all electronics for example BR players they all advertize fast loading , how fast is to them ???

I have mine 818 for a year now ( knock on wood ) and no problems what so ever .
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post #8569 of 9854 Old 12-07-2013, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

... Not to knock the little boy, but it is only an 8" sub and the laws of physics are what they are.

That is a possibility. I live in a small space in Japan (with neighbors) which is why I got the 8 in sub in the 1st place. What would you recommend?
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post #8570 of 9854 Old 12-07-2013, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by almadacr View Post

It depends of the calibration system it shows a faulty current and it stops completely or not MCACC , XT32 detected , The Sony DCA didn't . How did it went your calibration ?
/quote]

Worked like a charm. No problems whatsoever now. Pretty sure i just got a bad receiver on the maiden voyage. Scary running calibration the 2nd time though. If it exploded again it was probably going to be my fault and not Onkyo's..... breathing easier here in Japan
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post #8571 of 9854 Old 12-07-2013, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samhfoley View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by almadacr View Post

It depends of the calibration system it shows a faulty current and it stops completely or not MCACC , XT32 detected , The Sony DCA didn't . How did it went your calibration ?
/quote]

Worked like a charm. No problems whatsoever now. Pretty sure i just got a bad receiver on the maiden voyage. Scary running calibration the 2nd time though. If it exploded again it was probably going to be my fault and not Onkyo's..... breathing easier here in Japan

Cool enjoy it wink.gif.
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post #8572 of 9854 Old 12-07-2013, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Patrick Murphy View Post

On the remote; HOME>SETUP>SPEAKER SETUP>SPEAKER CONFIGURATION

Onkyo doesn't have a 'Large/Small" option. Large would be FULL BAND and anything else (40Hz+) would be Small. If the calibration run set them to anything less than 80Hz, it's advised to raise them to at least that setting for bass management. If over 80Hz, leave them alone. Remember, you can always raise them but never lower them i.e. 100Hz to 80Hz.

If you have a sub and tower fronts, why wouldn't you leave the fronts at 40 if that's where XT32 puts them? Or would you recommend leaving full towers at full band even with a sub?

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post #8573 of 9854 Old 12-07-2013, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Wryker View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post

I havent noticed any clicking or audio quality issues. .


I can confirm that the unit DOES click when it's changing audio formats. I have not viewed, exactly, when it's changing/what's causing it since I have the front covered with black-out paper to keep my room 'dark'. It doesn't happen watching a blu-ray, etc - it happens when watching TV/Cable. My guess is some commercials are not in 5.1 but 2.0 so the AVR 'clicks' over to that format when it occurs.

I'm a few days late, but I wrote up some stuff (and posted it a long time on in this thread) regarding how to configure your 818 to not click. It does involve making sure you don't ever go into 2.0 mode. See the link in my sig.
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post #8574 of 9854 Old 12-08-2013, 01:25 AM
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Yes, go into home & one of the settings is for A/V sync, go into that & adjust from 0 - 800ms, I am sure that will fix it.

New owner here. Bought only a week ago so still fine tuning everything. I was having the lip-sync problem too. I followed your directions and it works great now. It only took a few minutes. Thank you sir!
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post #8575 of 9854 Old 12-08-2013, 05:36 AM
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If you have a sub and tower fronts, why wouldn't you leave the fronts at 40 if that's where XT32 puts them? Or would you recommend leaving full towers at full band even with a sub?

Hi,

Here's an explanation from Audyssey on Large and Small;

http://www.audyssey.com/blog/small-vs-large

At one time, Chris K from 'Ask Audyssey', had this to say about crossover settings with XT32

"As for xovers, in MultEQ and MultEQ XT systems we recommend moving them up to 80 Hz so that more content is sent to the sub. That's because the filters in the sub have 8x more resolution and will produce smoother bass.

For MultEQ XT32 this is no longer necessary. The sub and satellite resolution is much higher (and equal) so there is no benefit in moving the xover up to a higher frequency.

The only thing to make sure is that your speakers are set to Small so that content goes to the sub below the xover frequency. There is also no harm in moving the xover up to 80 Hz if you wish to do so."


https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/20632041-XT32-Crossover-new-mic-results-

I tried leaving the crossovers as Audyssey set them (40 and 50Hz) for my 7 satellite speakers and found I preferred raising them to 80, but as explained above, you don't have to.. Regarding your question about running them Full Band if they were found to be 40Hz, that would be going against the rule of never lowering them.

Read the links as they explain it fuller.

Good luck.
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post #8576 of 9854 Old 12-08-2013, 05:42 AM
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On the remote; HOME>SETUP>SPEAKER SETUP>SPEAKER CONFIGURATION

Onkyo doesn't have a 'Large/Small" option. Large would be FULL BAND and anything else (40Hz+) would be Small. If the calibration run set them to anything less than 80Hz, it's advised to raise them to at least that setting for bass management. If over 80Hz, leave them alone. Remember, you can always raise them but never lower them i.e. 100Hz to 80Hz.

If you have a sub and tower fronts, why wouldn't you leave the fronts at 40 if that's where XT32 puts them? Or would you recommend leaving full towers at full band even with a sub?

 

This has been covered many times. See the Audyssey FAQ, here, for reasons why using 'full range' speakers set to Large is almost always a bad idea:

 

c)2.   Why do I often see advice to raise the Crossovers to 80Hz?


c)3.   I have big tower speakers at the front. Shouldn't I set these to Large'?

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post #8577 of 9854 Old 12-08-2013, 05:47 AM
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Greetings,

I have an Onkyo TX-NR 818 that I picked up in June 2012 for use in my living room system. It sees limited use at best and last week I turned it on to picture but no sound via HDMI. I monkeyed around with it for a bit figuring it had something to do with the Oppo Blu-ray player I had just swapped in. Then it dawned on me to power cycle the receiver which restored the sound. Since then each start up requires an additional power cycle to get the audio working. Additionally the network features don't work while the audio is not functioning.

This sounds like the beginning of what others have described as leading to a complete HDMI board failure. I have owned two Onkyo products, the PR-SC5508 pre/pro and this one. The 5508 suffered the well documented input cycling/IDE cable/board failure after 3 months. I sent it in for repair and continued to use it but when I heard about continuing problems with the HDMI boards I had to remove it from my reference system. The ticking time bomb thing just bugged me.

Here we go again. I am not happy at all and frankly can't in good conscience continue to recommend Onkyo products. Are there any other 818 owners that have had similar issues?

Regards,

Hi Ralph,

Early on with my 818, I would turn on the AVR, Directv box and the projector one after another and occasionally I wouldn't get any sound. Then I started with the Directv and AVR only until the 'HDMI startup' message went off on the front panel, then I'd turn on the projector. In a year or so, the problem has never come back. It might be that the HDMI board gets overloaded with more than one input at a time.
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post #8578 of 9854 Old 12-08-2013, 06:42 AM
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Hi,

Here's an explanation from Audyssey on Large and Small;

http://www.audyssey.com/blog/small-vs-large

At one time, Chris K from 'Ask Audyssey', had this to say about crossover settings with XT32

"As for xovers, in MultEQ and MultEQ XT systems we recommend moving them up to 80 Hz so that more content is sent to the sub. That's because the filters in the sub have 8x more resolution and will produce smoother bass.

For MultEQ XT32 this is no longer necessary. The sub and satellite resolution is much higher (and equal) so there is no benefit in moving the xover up to a higher frequency.

The only thing to make sure is that your speakers are set to Small so that content goes to the sub below the xover frequency. There is also no harm in moving the xover up to 80 Hz if you wish to do so."


https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/20632041-XT32-Crossover-new-mic-results-

I tried leaving the crossovers as Audyssey set them (40 and 50Hz) for my 7 satellite speakers and found I preferred raising them to 80, but as explained above, you don't have to.. Regarding your question about running them Full Band if they were found to be 40Hz, that would be going against the rule of never lowering them.

Read the links as they explain it fuller.

Good luck.

Thanks, that makes sense. Audessy set my fronts to 40, my center to 60, and my surrounds to 80, so I left it like that, but I'll try everything at 80 to see which I like better. Does the same reasoning apply to listening to music in 2.1?

Also, Audessy set the LFE crossover to 110Hz, which seems WAY too high, so I've been playing with 80 and 60 to see how long I want to go.

"You can observe a lot just by watchin'." - Yogi Berra

 

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Thanks, that makes sense. Audessy set my fronts to 40, my center to 60, and my surrounds to 80, so I left it like that, but I'll try everything at 80 to see which I like better. Does the same reasoning apply to listening to music in 2.1?

Also, Audessy set the LFE crossover to 110Hz, which seems WAY too high, so I've been playing with 80 and 60 to see how long I want to go.

Here's a link to the definitive guide to all things Audyssey from K Barnes and the gurus over on the dedicated Audyssey thread that explains the conventional setting of 120Hz LPF of LFE vs an alternate/new theory of 80Hz from a couple of pretty smart guys;

http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-51779/51750#user_c5
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post #8580 of 9854 Old 12-08-2013, 07:16 AM
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Thanks. Sorry for the ignorant questions. Been reading that entire post since I saw KBarnes' post above. A lot of good info there. Thanks again.

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