Onkyo TX-NR818 "official" owner's thread discussion - Page 304 - AVS Forum
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post #9091 of 9892 Old 02-16-2014, 09:23 AM
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I don't think you're stirring up a hornets nest but a subwoofer caters to all channels of your system not just the center. Many people use more than one sub but they're often daisy chained or the receiver has a hookup for two subwoofers. You'd be effectively adding vocals to the subwoofer which would make everyone sound way boomy and rumbly.

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post #9092 of 9892 Old 02-16-2014, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpalmieri1203 View Post

I don't think you're stirring up a hornets nest but a subwoofer caters to all channels of your system not just the center. Many people use more than one sub but they're often daisy chained or the receiver has a hookup for two subwoofers. You'd be effectively adding vocals to the subwoofer which would make everyone sound way boomy and rumbly.

So with that in mind, what would be the best (if there is such a thing) way to connect.

1.  Pre out

2.  Speaker out.

 

Reason I am asking is when I run the Audyssey I would like to know which one would be better?

 

Thanks =)

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post #9093 of 9892 Old 02-16-2014, 12:14 PM
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Well you'd just be providing the center channel bass to this subwoofer. So you'd be adding more bass to your voices. Out of curiosity what subwoofers will you be using?

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post #9094 of 9892 Old 02-16-2014, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpalmieri1203 View Post

Well you'd just be providing the center channel bass to this subwoofer. So you'd be adding more bass to your voices. Out of curiosity what subwoofers will you be using?

If I am reading this correctly, No.  My center speaker is an Energy Veritas Mini.  I will be adding the sub to that.  The extra sub I have is the one that came with my Take Classic system before I upgraded.  It is a little 8" down firing, front ported sub, 200 watts, 33-150khz.  

http://www.voxxintlcorp.com/docs/common/TK-CLASSI-5-1/TK-CLASSI-5-1_CUT_SH.pdf

 

My other sub, which comes Wednesday, is a SVS PB-1000.

Since these subs are not matched in terms of performance, and I do not have the room, I do not want to/can not run them together.  

 

Just want to see what it would be like to add it to my center for a fuller range.  If it sounds like crap it is easy enough to pull it out.

 

Appreciate all of your help.

Cheers

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post #9095 of 9892 Old 02-16-2014, 12:28 PM
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Your goal should be to then daisy chain the subs and hopefully you're using matching subs. It can be done. Whether you care about doing it "right" though is another story.

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post #9096 of 9892 Old 02-16-2014, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by ragingmain View Post

I know this is going to stir up a hornet's nest.  PLEASE do not tell me why I shouldn't do it.  I WANT to try it and see how it sounds.  If it doesnt sound good I will stop doing it.  I DO NOT want this to turn into a huge debate.  I Just NEED a simple answer.  Here it GOES......

Sub with my center.
1.  Use the Center Pre Out?  It is an amplified sub.
2.  Use the Speaker Terminal out?  Yes it has Speaker Line inputs, although they are L and R inputs.

I appreciate with holding judgement and telling me "WHY would you want to do this?"  "This is SO stupid."

I have an extra sub laying around and I am curious to how it will sound.

I sincerely do appreciate all of your help.

Cheers

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Originally Posted by ragingmain View Post

So with that in mind, what would be the best (if there is such a thing) way to connect.
1.  Pre out
2.  Speaker out.

Reason I am asking is when I run the Audyssey I would like to know which one would be better?

Thanks =)

Oh man you got an SVS? You have no idea what you're in for. You have no need for the other sub at all! Trust me. Throw it in the junk heap. You have no idea what you're about to unleash. Hooking up that other sub will just limit his much you can push the SVS as chances are the other sub will distort and ruin your sound. I'd perform Audyssey with ONLY the SVS. Let me know how it goes. Years ago when I heard my first SVS was quite the experience. I was thinking much like you are now. Nothing wrong trying to maximize with what equipment you have. Save that sub for something else.

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post #9097 of 9892 Old 02-16-2014, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpalmieri1203 View Post

Your goal should be to then daisy chain the subs and hopefully you're using matching subs. It can be done. Whether you care about doing it "right" though is another story.

They are not matching subs.  Plus our 818s have two subwoofer outs so we shouldnt have to daisy chain our subs unless we are using more than 2 on the LFE channel.

 

This is not my goal.

 

I simply want to try and add my old sub to my center for a little more fullness.  If it doesnt work I can easily pull it.

 

With this in mind should I use

1.  The center pre out?

2.  Speaker out?

 

It is easy enough to try both.  I am just looking for input before my new sub arrives wednesday.

Thanks

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post #9098 of 9892 Old 02-16-2014, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpalmieri1203 View Post



Oh man you got an SVS? You have no idea what you're in for. You have no need for the other sub at all! Trust me. Throw it in the junk heap. You have no idea what you're about to unleash. Hooking up that other sub will just limit his much you can push the SVS as chances are the other sub will distort and ruin your sound. I'd perform Audyssey with ONLY the SVS. Let me know how it goes. Years ago when I heard my first SVS was quite the experience. I was thinking much like you are now. Nothing wrong trying to maximize with what equipment you have. Save that sub for something else.

Maybe my thinking is backward but if I were to take some of the load off of the SVS but using a small sub with my center I could safely push it even harder for some higer dbs?  

 

According to this article

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_2/feature-article-misunderstood-lfe-channel-april-2000.html

There are two signals going to the sub.  The LFE that the Sound engineer puts on the tracks and than anything which the AVR pushes that way from the other channels based on the XO settings.  Maybe I am reading it wrong.  Plus it is 13 years old, things very well could have changed.

 

I am new to all this but do a lot of reading.  Their is so much information to go through.

Yes I am LOOKING FORWARD to wednesday, it cant get here quick enough.  :rolleyes: 

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post #9099 of 9892 Old 02-16-2014, 12:40 PM
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If that's what you want to do add it to the LFE. You're making a mistake incorporating it but that's your call and whatever makes you happy is the best outcome.

The SVS will add fullness to all channels as audyssey is going to set a crossover point for each individual speaker in your setup.

I understand what you hope the outcome to be but that's not what's going to occur. Your sub will basically struggle to reproduce all the sounds of the center(predominantly voice) and will sound completely atrocious.

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post #9100 of 9892 Old 02-16-2014, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ragingmain View Post

They are not matching subs.  Plus our 818s have two subwoofer outs so we shouldnt have to daisy chain our subs unless we are using more than 2 on the LFE channel.

This is not my goal.

I simply want to try and add my old sub to my center for a little more fullness.  If it doesnt work I can easily pull it.

With this in mind should I use
1.  The center pre out?
2.  Speaker out?

It is easy enough to try both.  I am just looking for input before my new sub arrives wednesday.
Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by ragingmain View Post

Maybe my thinking is backward but if I were to take some of the load off of the SVS but using a small sub with my center I could safely push it even harder for some higer dbs?  

I am new to all this but do a lot of reading.  Their is so much information to go through.

Yes I am LOOKING FORWARD to wednesday, it cant get here quick enough.  rolleyes.gif

The SVS does not need it's load lightened and what your suggesting won't. You will understand better when you get the SVS. I would eliminate the previous sub altogether and use Audyssey without it. You really have no idea what proper bass sounds like if that's the sub you were previously rolling with. I don't meant to offend just to identify with you as I have personally gone through your thinking process 13 years ago.

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post #9101 of 9892 Old 02-16-2014, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpalmieri1203 View Post



The SVS does not need it's load lightened and what your suggesting won't. You will understand better when you get the SVS. I would eliminate the previous sub altogether and use Audyssey without it. You really have no idea what proper bass sounds like if that's the sub you were previously rolling with. I don't meant to offend just to identify with you as I have personally gone through your thinking process 13 years ago.

No offense taken.  That is exactly why I am upgrading.  At the time funds didnt allow for a bigger setup.  I have heard properly setup systems and have always yearned for more bass.

I am excited to get it and set it up properly.

 

Thanks for all of your help.

 

BUT please just humor me.

1 or 2?

LFE wasnt an option.  No offense ;) 

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post #9102 of 9892 Old 02-16-2014, 12:55 PM
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I don't think anyone will be able to give you the answer as both will not reproduce sound that is desirable. Is the sub from your set amplified? I'm assuming it's not since the second LFE isn't an option?

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post #9103 of 9892 Old 02-16-2014, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by mpalmieri1203 View Post

I don't think anyone will be able to give you the answer as both will not reproduce sound that is desirable. Is the sub from your set amplified? I'm assuming it's not since the second LFE isn't an option?

Yes it is amplified.  

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post #9104 of 9892 Old 02-16-2014, 01:01 PM
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Well I guess is run it through stereo. The effective way to use the second subwoofer is to send actual LFE to the sub. Your going to be sending the full signal to the sub which it CAN NOT reproduce in any capacity and will lead to you degrading the sound of the SVS and the channel that you force the Energy sub to reproduce.

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post #9105 of 9892 Old 02-16-2014, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpalmieri1203 View Post

Well I guess is run it through stereo. The effective way to use the second subwoofer is to send actual LFE to the sub. Your going to be sending the full signal to the sub which it CAN NOT reproduce in any capacity and will lead to you degrading the sound of the SVS and the channel that you force the Energy sub to reproduce.

Ok, I do understand all of that.  

This is my thinking and of course it could be wrong (probably is)

Lets say I have a CC speaker capable of 48hz +/- 3db.  It has some largeish 6.5" drivers, a midrange or two and a tweeter.  Heck I have even seen quite a few with built in amplified subs.

 

When performing Audyssey it will chirp its signal and see the CC is capable of lower frequencies and set it to lets say 50-60hz, this is much lower than most dialouge but a fuller range for other non dialouge events,  lets say explosions center screen.

 

When I hook up my sub to the CC and I perform my Audyssey, with my low pass filter set at 150hz, it will run its sweep from 10hz to 24khz and see that my center channel is capable of producing frequencies as low as 33hz.  It should then set my XO for the center with a lower frequency.  This will effectively make the "Sub+CC" look like a bigger CC.  The Sub will only play the part of the signal is is capable of (anything lower than 150hz)  of course I can set the low pass frequency to only pass for example 80-90hz and below and the lower end will be set by the Audyssey.  If it is too low for my liking I can always adjust the it up in the settings.

 

If my low pass is set at 90hz and Audyssey is setting the low end at 50hz than in theory the only frequencies reproduced by the sub will be in this range.  The rest of the frequencies will be reproduced by the Energy CC.  With some work I should be able to get them to overlap seemlessly.

 

This is how a larger CC works.  There is some overlap between the big speaker and midrange but it is usually seemless.

 

Using this approach the sub WILL NOT be reproducing the full signal.  Only that which I have set it for.

 

So when you mean Stereo you mine Speaker Out (L/R)?

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post #9106 of 9892 Old 02-16-2014, 01:50 PM
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I think the only way you can make it work is speaker wire to sub and then from there to center channel. If you use preout for center you won't get bass below the crossover unless you set center to large which you don't want.
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post #9107 of 9892 Old 02-16-2014, 01:55 PM
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I have a $1300 Sierra Horizon center that can make it to 50hZ no problem. I cross it over at 70 to a)reduce the load on my amp and b) that's what I bought my SVS SB13U for.

Also the preout is designed to pass the signal off to an amplifier. I'm not sure of this but I believe you either send the signal out via the center speaker hookups OR the pre-out, not both.

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post #9108 of 9892 Old 02-16-2014, 01:58 PM
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If you're not happy with your center buy a better center. If what your discussing was desirable or "good enough" you'd see people doing it.

Trust me! Run Audyssey without this weird center speaker Frankenstein and thank me later.

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post #9109 of 9892 Old 02-16-2014, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

I think the only way you can make it work is speaker wire to sub and then from there to center channel. If you use preout for center you won't get bass below the crossover unless you set center to large which you don't want.

Ok, what if I was to manually set the XO to lets say 50hz and use the pre out for the sub only and leave my CC hooked up to speaker output only?

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post #9110 of 9892 Old 02-16-2014, 02:01 PM
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Also Audysseys going to limit your SVS based on the crap reproduction of your old sub. You can't stop the center LFE from going to the SVS. You're doubling up and if imagine audyssey is going to make adjustments that hurt your SVS based on the poor performance of your frankencenter.

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post #9111 of 9892 Old 02-16-2014, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpalmieri1203 View Post

If you're not happy with your center buy a better center. If what your discussing was desirable or "good enough" you'd see people doing it.

Trust me! Run Audyssey without this weird center speaker Frankenstein and thank me later.

Size and money constraints are my concern with a bigger CC.  Believe me I wish I could.

Just trying to make the most out of a mediocre situation using what I have.

If it doesnt work so be it.  

I am not set hard and fast on doing it.

Just curious to try.

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post #9112 of 9892 Old 02-16-2014, 02:04 PM
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It's either the speaker line or preout makes no difference what you set the crossover too...it's getting crossed over to the LFE channel not the center preout.

The center preout is to send an unamplified signal to an amplifier. Not to run self powered subs for each speaker. Speakers that do this have built in crossovers that do this in a very specific manner.

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post #9113 of 9892 Old 02-16-2014, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ragingmain View Post

Ok, what if I was to manually set the XO to lets say 50hz and use the pre out for the sub only and leave my CC hooked up to speaker output only?

But if you use the sub preout it will have LFE and bass from all other channels, you don't want that, you want only center channel bass going to this sub right?
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post #9114 of 9892 Old 02-16-2014, 02:08 PM
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But at the end if the day it's about what makes you happy. However from a measurable scientific standpoint you're creating a situation that is worse than just using the SVS. This will become clear to you soon after you do it. I'm just trying to save you time from ruining audyssey twice.

The BEST way is the SVS only way. You will not find anyone here that will tell you otherwise. You're not creating a fuller center or adding anything you'll be detracting to what your system will be capable of after adding the SVS.

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post #9115 of 9892 Old 02-16-2014, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpalmieri1203 View Post

It's either the speaker line or preout makes no difference what you set the crossover too...it's getting crossed over to the LFE channel not the center preout.

The center preout is to send an unamplified signal to an amplifier. Not to run self powered subs for each speaker. Speakers that do this have built in crossovers that do this in a very specific manner.

Unless I have read just about everything wrong the sub recieves two signals.

 

The LFE is a completely separate channel than the other 5/7/9, hence the .1 designation.  Sound engineers use this LFE or .1 channel exclusively to add bass effects to the tracks.  There may or may not be LFE content on a track.  If there is LFE content it is usually 10 dbs higher than the rest of the channels.

 

The other signal passed to the speaker is what is pushed that way from the rest of the channels and what their XO are set at.  In my case my center is set to 90hz, so any information on the CC that is below 90 will be played by the sub.  This is not the same channel as the LFE, it is part of the 5/7/9 channels.  Two separate channels.

 

In your case your CC is capable 50hz and you have it set at 70hz.  Anything on your CC below 70hz is sent to the sub for reproduction.  This is in addition to any LFE content the sound engineer put on the track.

 

Regardless of my previous CC+Sub question.  Is the above statement correct or not?

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post #9116 of 9892 Old 02-16-2014, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post


But if you use the sub preout it will have LFE and bass from all other channels, you don't want that, you want only center channel bass going to this sub right?

Yes you are correct, I only want the CC bass going to the small sub.

I am sorry I should have stated which Pre Out.  The CC Pre Out was the one I was asking about.

 

But yes if I were to, which I am not going to, use the SUB Pre Out it would have all the other information

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post #9117 of 9892 Old 02-16-2014, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ragingmain View Post

Unless I have read just about everything wrong the sub recieves two signals.

The LFE is a completely separate channel than the other 5/7/9, hence the .1 designation.  Sound engineers use this LFE or .1 channel exclusively to add bass effects to the tracks.  There may or may not be LFE content on a track.  If there is LFE content it is usually 10 dbs higher than the rest of the channels.

The other signal passed to the speaker is what is pushed that way from the rest of the channels and what their XO are set at.  In my case my center is set to 90hz, so any information on the CC that is below 90 will be played by the sub.  This is not the same channel as the LFE, it is part of the 5/7/9 channels.  Two separate channels.

In your case your CC is capable 50hz and you have it set at 70hz.  Anything on your CC below 70hz is sent to the sub for reproduction.  This is in addition to any LFE content the sound engineer put on the track.

Regardless of my previous CC+Sub question.  Is the above statement correct or not?

Yes this is exactly how it works.

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post #9118 of 9892 Old 02-16-2014, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpalmieri1203 View Post

But at the end if the day it's about what makes you happy. However from a measurable scientific standpoint you're creating a situation that is worse than just using the SVS. This will become clear to you soon after you do it. I'm just trying to save you time from ruining audyssey twice.

The BEST way is the SVS only way. You will not find anyone here that will tell you otherwise. You're not creating a fuller center or adding anything you'll be detracting to what your system will be capable of after adding the SVS.

Maybe I have been bass starved for two long and now I am trying to gorge.  LOL

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post #9119 of 9892 Old 02-16-2014, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ragingmain View Post

Yes you are correct, I only want the CC bass going to the small sub.
I am sorry I should have stated which Pre Out.  The CC Pre Out was the one I was asking about.

But yes if I were to, which I am not going to, use the SUB Pre Out it would have all the other information

You can't delineate to the center preout what frequencies to play and not play. You also can't youse your speaker jacks and preouts at the same time. It's one or the other. So this WILL NOT work for what you want.

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post #9120 of 9892 Old 02-16-2014, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpalmieri1203 View Post


Yes this is exactly how it works.

Cool, at least I am not a total idiot =)

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Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

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Onkyo Tx Nr818 , Receivers Amplifiers , Onkyo , Audyssey
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