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post #9121 of 10066 Old 02-16-2014, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by mpalmieri1203 View Post


You can't delineate to the center preout what frequencies to play and not play. You also can't youse your speaker jacks and preouts at the same time. It's one or the other. So this WILL NOT work for what you want.

Since I cant use both at the same time then I will have to use just the speaker outs.

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post #9122 of 10066 Old 02-16-2014, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ragingmain View Post

Maybe I have been bass starved for two long and now I am trying to gorge.  LOL

The problem is by incorporating a weak link in the sub region you will hold the SVS back in Audyssey. Low frequency audio that would sound better coming out of he SVS you paid money for would instead be passed through to what you already have. You're just further starving yourself.

It's like saying I want fresh bread I've been eating rotten bread for so long. You go to the store by a new loaf of bread but you don't want to throw the old one out. You shuffle all the slices together.
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post #9123 of 10066 Old 02-16-2014, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by ragingmain View Post

Since I cant use both at the same time then I will have to use just the speaker outs.

This will generally degrade the sound getting output by your center.

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post #9124 of 10066 Old 02-16-2014, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by mpalmieri1203 View Post


The problem is by incorporating a weak link in the sub region you will hold the SVS back in Audyssey. Low frequency audio that would sound better coming out of he SVS you paid money for would instead be passed through to what you already have. You're just further starving yourself.

It's like saying I want fresh bread I've been eating rotten bread for so long. You go to the store by a new loaf of bread but you don't want to throw the old one out. You shuffle all the slices together.

This puts in prespective.  Very colorful analogy.

Made me chuckle.

Thanks

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post #9125 of 10066 Old 02-16-2014, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ragingmain View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpalmieri1203 View Post

It's either the speaker line or preout makes no difference what you set the crossover too...it's getting crossed over to the LFE channel not the center preout.


The center preout is to send an unamplified signal to an amplifier. Not to run self powered subs for each speaker. Speakers that do this have built in crossovers that do this in a very specific manner.
Unless I have read just about everything wrong the sub recieves two signals.

The LFE is a completely separate channel than the other 5/7/9, hence the .1 designation.  Sound engineers use this LFE or .1 channel exclusively to add bass effects to the tracks.  There may or may not be LFE content on a track.  If there is LFE content it is usually 10 dbs higher than the rest of the channels.

The other signal passed to the speaker is what is pushed that way from the rest of the channels and what their XO are set at.  In my case my center is set to 90hz, so any information on the CC that is below 90 will be played by the sub.  This is not the same channel as the LFE, it is part of the 5/7/9 channels.  Two separate channels.

In your case your CC is capable 50hz and you have it set at 70hz.  Anything on your CC below 70hz is sent to the sub for reproduction.  This is in addition to any LFE content the sound engineer put on the track.

Regardless of my previous CC+Sub question.  Is the above statement correct or not?

Crossover points aren't brick walls, it's the point at which the frequencies are started rolling off....

I'd agree that you would only want the center channel used (whether you use speaker level or line level input to the sub is your choice but I'd use the center preout personally), but you're not going to be able to limit the upper end of the signal so you will duplicate the center speaker's output up to the sub's limit....probably won't sound very good even if you're able to level match the sub to the center speaker (do you have a way of measuring?).
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post #9126 of 10066 Old 02-16-2014, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post


Crossover points aren't brick walls, it's the point at which the frequencies are started rolling off....

I'd agree that you would only want the center channel used (whether you use speaker level or line level input to the sub is your choice but I'd use the center preout personally), but you're not going to be able to limit the upper end of the signal so you will duplicate the center speaker's output up to the sub's limit....probably won't sound very good even if you're able to level match the sub to the center speaker (do you have a way of measuring?).

The low pass filter on the sub wont limit the upper end of the signal going to it?  I thought that is what it is used for.  For example if my low pass filter is set at 150hz the highest it will produce is 150hz.  If I set it at 100hz the highest it will produce is 100hz.

Is this how a low pass filter works?

 

Other than my ears and the mic from Audyssey, no.

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post #9127 of 10066 Old 02-16-2014, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by ragingmain View Post

The low pass filter on the sub wont limit the upper end of the signal going to it?  I thought that is what it is used for.  For example if my low pass filter is set at 150hz the highest it will produce is 150hz.  If I set it at 100hz the highest it will produce is 100hz.
Is this how a low pass filter works?

Other than my ears and the mic from Audyssey, no.

Nope that's the limit at which it STOPS reproducing sound or rolls the sound off to the subwoofer.

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post #9128 of 10066 Old 02-16-2014, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by mpalmieri1203 View Post


Nope that's the limit at which it STOPS reproducing sound or rolls the sound off to the subwoofer.

Are we not saying the same thing in a different way.

If my low pass filter is set at 100hz the sub will play all frequencies from 40-100hz. 

The top of the band will be 100hz

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post #9129 of 10066 Old 02-16-2014, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by ragingmain View Post

Are we not saying the same thing in a different way.
If my low pass filter is set at 100hz the sub will play all frequencies from 40-100hz. 
The top of the band will be 100hz

No because your center channel is still crossing over to the sub plugged into then LFE. Your sub hooked up to the speaker is viewed as full range and receives the full signal. I'm sure others will elaborate but as an experienced home theater enthusiast I'm simply telling you this is not a good idea and will add nothing to your system. I think your head will clear after running the SVS As your solo subwoofer.

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post #9130 of 10066 Old 02-16-2014, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ragingmain View Post
 

Are we not saying the same thing in a different way.

If my low pass filter is set at 100hz the sub will play all frequencies from 40-100hz. 

The top of the band will be 100hz

Yes, run center channel speaker wire to the sub and speaker wire to the center.  Then your LPF on the sub determines what signal the sub plays just like you mention.  Note the center channel should be set to Full Range in the receiver then.

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post #9131 of 10066 Old 02-16-2014, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ragingmain View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Crossover points aren't brick walls, it's the point at which the frequencies are started rolling off....


I'd agree that you would only want the center channel used (whether you use speaker level or line level input to the sub is your choice but I'd use the center preout personally), but you're not going to be able to limit the upper end of the signal so you will duplicate the center speaker's output up to the sub's limit....probably won't sound very good even if you're able to level match the sub to the center speaker (do you have a way of measuring?).
The low pass filter on the sub wont limit the upper end of the signal going to it?  I thought that is what it is used for.  For example if my low pass filter is set at 150hz the highest it will produce is 150hz.  If I set it at 100hz the highest it will produce is 100hz.
Is this how a low pass filter works?

Other than my ears and the mic from Audyssey, no.

It was a long party last night with two tasty kegs .... was thinking only in terms of the avr management! Yes, you can limit it using the sub's adjustment, but there's still going to be crossover from the rollofff with what the center is doing....if you set it at 100 hz you'll still get some content beyond that while it rolls off....
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post #9132 of 10066 Old 02-16-2014, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpalmieri1203 View Post

The problem is by incorporating a weak link in the sub region you will hold the SVS back in Audyssey. Low frequency audio that would sound better coming out of he SVS you paid money for would instead be passed through to what you already have. You're just further starving yourself.

It's like saying I want fresh bread I've been eating rotten bread for so long. You go to the store by a new loaf of bread but you don't want to throw the old one out. You shuffle all the slices together.

Wile I agree, for the most part, that this may not sound as he is intending...in fact, it may sound like a$$...
But, I do not agree with this statement...
The SVS should not be held up, or back, for any reason whatsoever. He will set the db of the SVS prior to doing anything with Audyssey. Audyssey will then interpret the fact, (much like he has said in previous postings), that he has a CC capable of producing a wider range of hz than most. This is not setting the speakers to large. it is only defining one speaker. (Think of it as if you have a completely unmatched center channel...) The only place I think this will help, is if he has a thin, or "tinny" sounding CC, currently.
The thing that he would watch out for, is, do not follow the guide and set the CC to 80hz (THX), as has been suggested to "lighten the load on the amp"...
ragingmain,
What is the problem with trying? do it, and report back to us.
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post #9133 of 10066 Old 02-16-2014, 04:09 PM
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Yes, run center channel speaker wire to the sub and speaker wire to the center.  Then your LPF on the sub determines what signal the sub plays just like you mention.  Note the center channel should be set to Full Range in the receiver then.

There is no speaker level out from this sub.  Only speaker level in.  

So it is ok to jam both the AVR outlet wires and the wires going to the center in the speaker level in on the sub?  Daisy chain in other words.

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post #9134 of 10066 Old 02-16-2014, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by ragingmain View Post

There is no speaker level out from this sub.  Only speaker level in.  
So it is ok to jam both the AVR outlet wires and the wires going to the center in the speaker level in on the sub?  Daisy chain in other words.

That is not good at all and you could destroy your receiver as well as your speakers.
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post #9135 of 10066 Old 02-16-2014, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by ragingmain View Post

There is no speaker level out from this sub.  Only speaker level in.  
So it is ok to jam both the AVR outlet wires and the wires going to the center in the speaker level in on the sub?  Daisy chain in other words.
NO, I would not do this.
Most older HTIB subs have speaker outs to go to satellites...yours does not have this?
If that's the case, do as mpalmieri states and bag it altogether. Put the old sub to use in a bedroom or living room setup. PC setup...whatever.

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post #9136 of 10066 Old 02-16-2014, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by mpalmieri1203 View Post

That is not good at all and you could destroy your receiver as well as your speakers.
Absolutely

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post #9137 of 10066 Old 02-16-2014, 04:14 PM
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NO, I would not do this.
Most older HTIB subs have speaker outs to go to satellites...yours does not have this?

The fact that it's powered led me to believe this was the case but I didn't think someone would actually think to do that. This mans life will be changed on Wednesday.

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post #9138 of 10066 Old 02-16-2014, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by ragingmain View Post
 

There is no speaker level out from this sub.  Only speaker level in.  

So it is ok to jam both the AVR outlet wires and the wires going to the center in the speaker level in on the sub?  Daisy chain in other words.

Nope.  Your only option now is to scrap the idea and wait for your SVS like others mentioned. :)

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post #9139 of 10066 Old 02-16-2014, 04:18 PM
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Wile I agree, for the most part, that this may not sound as he is intending...in fact, it may sound like a$$...
But, I do not agree with this statement...
The SVS should not be held up, or back, for any reason whatsoever. He will set the db of the SVS prior to doing anything with Audyssey. Audyssey will then interpret the fact, (much like he has said in previous postings), that he has a CC capable of producing a wider range of hz than most. This is not setting the speakers to large. it is only defining one speaker. (Think of it as if you have a completely unmatched center channel...) The only place I think this will help, is if he has a thin, or "tinny" sounding CC, currently.
The thing that he would watch out for, is, do not follow the guide and set the CC to 80hz (THX), as has been suggested to "lighten the load on the amp"...
ragingmain,
What is the problem with trying? do it, and report back to us.
Good Luck

You mentioned it being like having a completely unmatched CC.  This is actually my biggest concern and why I asked the question in the way I did.

To help minimize the unmatched effect which output should I use to run the sub?

1.  CC Pre Out?  Or

2.  Speaker level out? 

 

I will report back and I will be honest in my evaluation.  My plan is to actually hook it up with Sub+CC and play a movie, probably action scene from a war movie like Saving Private Ryan or HBOs The Pacific series where there are a lot of explosions.  Invite some friends over and let them listen and tell me what they think.  I will then pull the sub, re run Audyssey (wont take too long) and have them watch the same scene without the sub.

 

We have a lot of movie nights.  I have an Epson 5030UB with a 106" screen.  

Looking for the biggest impact.  Looking forward to the SVS

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post #9140 of 10066 Old 02-16-2014, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by ragingmain View Post

You mentioned it being like having a completely unmatched CC.  This is actually my biggest concern and why I asked the question in the way I did.
To help minimize the unmatched effect which output should I use to run the sub?
1.  CC Pre Out?  Or
2.  Speaker level out? 

I will report back and I will be honest in my evaluation.  My plan is to actually hook it up with Sub+CC and play a movie, probably action scene from a war movie like Saving Private Ryan or HBOs The Pacific series where there are a lot of explosions.  Invite some friends over and let them listen and tell me what they think.  I will then pull the sub, re run Audyssey (wont take too long) and have them watch the same scene without the sub.

We have a lot of movie nights.  I have an Epson 5030UB with a 106" screen.  
Looking for the biggest impact.  Looking forward to the SVS

You can't use the precut and you will ruin the receiver and speakers if you daisychain the speakers.

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post #9141 of 10066 Old 02-16-2014, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post
 

Nope.  Your only option now is to scrap the idea and wait for your SVS like others mentioned. :)

I didnt think it was a good idea, Hence why I was asking.

 

It does have the regular subwoofer input and L/R speaker level inputs but no outlets :(

 

Thanks for all your guys help and patience.

 

it has been quite a learning experience

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post #9142 of 10066 Old 02-16-2014, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ragingmain View Post

You mentioned it being like having a completely unmatched CC.  This is actually my biggest concern and why I asked the question in the way I did.
To help minimize the unmatched effect which output should I use to run the sub?
1.  CC Pre Out?  Or
2.  Speaker level out? 

I will report back and I will be honest in my evaluation.  My plan is to actually hook it up with Sub+CC and play a movie, probably action scene from a war movie like Saving Private Ryan or HBOs The Pacific series where there are a lot of explosions.  Invite some friends over and let them listen and tell me what they think.  I will then pull the sub, re run Audyssey (wont take too long) and have them watch the same scene without the sub.

We have a lot of movie nights.  I have an Epson 5030UB with a 106" screen.  
Looking for the biggest impact.  Looking forward to the SVS

Information has changed since then...Bag it, don't ruin your new receiver.
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post #9143 of 10066 Old 02-16-2014, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by mpalmieri1203 View Post


You can't use the precut and you will ruin the receiver and speakers if you daisychain the speakers.

Well I do not want to ruin anything.

 

Guess it was just a pipe dream

 

Thanks again.

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post #9144 of 10066 Old 02-16-2014, 04:24 PM
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I'd use the pre-out if I were doing the experiment. It's easier in any case.

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post #9145 of 10066 Old 02-16-2014, 04:42 PM
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This post is what got me thinking about this in the first place, but it doesnt really answer my orginal question.

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1326172/center-pre-out-sub

 

So one last question than and I will shut up (probably)

 

If I cant daisy chain, what about parallel?

Two wires coming out of the AVR, one set to the sub and the other to the CC.

Regardless of how it MIGHT sound, will this cause damage to the AVR?

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post #9146 of 10066 Old 02-16-2014, 04:46 PM
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This post is what got me thinking about this in the first place, but it doesnt really answer my orginal question.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1326172/center-pre-out-sub

So one last question than and I will shut up (probably)

If I cant daisy chain, what about parallel?
Two wires coming out of the AVR, one set to the sub and the other to the CC.
Regardless of how it MIGHT sound, will this cause damage to the AVR?

Yes it's the same exact thing. What you want to do isn't done. Your equipment is not designed to do it because it wouldn't sound good a and is unnecessary.

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post #9147 of 10066 Old 02-16-2014, 04:56 PM
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If you really want to impress your friends the bass in Finding Nemo, Flight of the Phoenix and Man of Steel is the way to go.
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post #9148 of 10066 Old 02-16-2014, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by mpalmieri1203 View Post

You can't use the precut and you will ruin the receiver and speakers if you daisychain the speakers.

How so?

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post #9149 of 10066 Old 02-16-2014, 04:59 PM
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If you really want to impress your friends the bass in Finding Nemo, Flight of the Phoenix and Man of Steel is the way to go.

We have lots of movie nights.

Just wanted it to sound the best it could.

 

Cant wait till Wednesday?

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post #9150 of 10066 Old 02-16-2014, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

How so?

I won't pretend to understand the science behind it but there are numerous posts scattered around the forum on the many reasons why this isn't good and there is a strong likelihood of destroying your equipment. Not too mention the sub is apparently self amplified.

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Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

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