Onkyo TX-NR818 "official" owner's thread discussion - Page 34 - AVS Forum
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post #991 of 10028 Old 07-10-2012, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

I do not subscribe to this school of thought although I do understand why some do. IMO there are better and worse settings for phase/distance. Are you claiming two out of phase subs will sound the same as subs that are in phase?

This is not a "school of thought" but physics. Out of phase subs might result in a smoother response in one room but not in another. It all depends. It depends on the room and the location of subs and listener.
Adjusting level, phase and delay has in impact on the results of the in-room transfer function but setting those values like one would in an anechoic space doesn't automatically provide optimal results in an acoustically small room.

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"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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post #992 of 10028 Old 07-10-2012, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by amt View Post

If it's like the other onkyo receivers, all GUI elements are gone.

I may be confusing terms but, does this mean that if I have an Onkyo receiver, it won't display volume and other information on top of the video? I'll have to look at the receiver's display in order to see volume/input information?

If so, are Denons like this?

Upgraditis Anonymous
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post #993 of 10028 Old 07-10-2012, 10:12 AM
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^^^

yes, same deal for the denons, if you completely defeat the video processing... the avr would have no way of overlaying the video... it's possible that it could be done via hdmi-cec dependent on the components...

the 4311 doesn't molest the signal while doing this... some other models (forget which ones) had some issues surrounding vid processing...

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post #994 of 10028 Old 07-10-2012, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

This is not a "school of thought" but physics. Out of phase subs might result in a smoother response in one room but not in another. It all depends. It depends on the room and the location of subs and listener.
Adjusting level, phase and delay has in impact on the results of the in-room transfer function but setting those values like one would in an anechoic space doesn't automatically provide optimal results in an acoustically small room.

Agreed one set of phase settings which provides a good phase response in one space may not be a good set of phase settings in another and that position (sub and listener) also impacts the phase which is essentially a distance setting so as you move around our distance to each sub changes. What I do not understand how you can acknowledge that there are better and worse phase settings given a system, in a particular room, for a particular position and also say
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 
" 'Phase' shouldn't be used at all. It's really just a nonsense feature."

At a basic level, there's a knob on the back of your subs and adjusting it to different positions effects how it sounds at a particular place in the room. I am going to adjust mine so it sounds better to me at MLP, it measures better as well. At the deeper level out of phase sound waves (and any mechanical wave) cancel each other out and will effect how loud the sound is. In real rooms there is enough reflections so that they won't perfectly cancel each other out and there really isn't a perfect setting, but there are better and worse settings and that is measurable.

With one sub the 818 can get your phase good and level correct therefore you do not set the phase on the sub and some sub's LFE input jacks actually disable their phase control for this reason. The 818 cannot do so independently for two subs so it is up to the user to get them playing nicely together prior to running audyssey; playing a sine wave at the crossover frequency is the recommended approach. SubEQ provides independent level and phase controls for two subs. REW is our friend. Good phase settings also impact the interaction between the sub and the other speakers and can help the subs blend with the rest of the system. If a user with two subs does not want to invest the time to set phase and level independently prior to running audyssey they should go with a SubEQ capable receiver such as the d4311 or o3009.

I am just trying to say that I do not consider features that can be used to cause the system to sound and measure better nonsense.
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post #995 of 10028 Old 07-10-2012, 11:01 AM
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Not sure what you mean by "phase". At low frequencies phase is irrelevant. The wavelengths are so big that "reflected" sound immediately becomes part of the direct sound.

Anyway, thinking in terms of geometrical acoustics won't get you far. You have to think waves. Toole's book should get you started. Here you'll find some good info too: http://gedlee.com/downloads/Philosophy.pdf

Markus

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post #996 of 10028 Old 07-10-2012, 12:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amt View Post

If it's like the other onkyo receivers, all GUI elements are gone.

Video SKIP will not disable the OSD.

I believe that if you get into the hidden menu (that I seemingly can no longer get into) and turn other things off that it will disable the OSD.

Which leads one to the question of what exactly SKIP is doing.

My suspicion is that there's some route through the internal video scaler, etc, that gets bypassed when you do this SKIP thing, but it does not appear to disable the OSD.
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post #997 of 10028 Old 07-10-2012, 12:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by nlpearman View Post

Whoa - not a good result.
Well done on finding this on the 818. I'm surprised we aren't more clear on this for other manufacturers.
However, doesn't some processing always need to be happening in order to overlay GUI elements (like volume) on an HDMI source?

Manufacturers continue to flub 24P so it really doesn't surprise me (much). But certainly you'd think that they would test stuff like this, with a simple HDMI test set, etc, before shipping a $1200 product to demanding audio/video people.
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post #998 of 10028 Old 07-10-2012, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

it has been available for around that price from authorized dealers for a LONG time...
because what comes out of the subwoofers is dominated by the room. you want to eq the combined response...


My question is where if 818 going for $950 then $250 more I get ($1200 Denon 4311).. which is what he was saying.. I guessing that isn't true..

The 818 is in my price range and I could do even $1200 for Denon, but can't go $2000 for it..

As it is I found some valid dealer who sell me the 818 for $800 + $30 for shipping.. but looking see if there any other valid options.


________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Question how good or bad is iphone app for controlling the 818? That seems to me if worked well be a selling feature. Is there any limitations to what the remote can do? Obliviously it can't control the TV as well but besides that.. Are there things you wish it could do and it can't? Is the App stable?

Thanks,

Chris
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post #999 of 10028 Old 07-10-2012, 02:20 PM
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^^^

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1388717/denon-4311ci-ee-for-1329-99/300

- chris

 

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post #1000 of 10028 Old 07-10-2012, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

Video SKIP will not disable the OSD.
I believe that if you get into the hidden menu (that I seemingly can no longer get into) and turn other things off that it will disable the OSD.
Which leads one to the question of what exactly SKIP is doing.
My suspicion is that there's some route through the internal video scaler, etc, that gets bypassed when you do this SKIP thing, but it does not appear to disable the OSD.

I guess it depends on what "skip" means. If you are referring to the multi-buttion press to bypass video processing, that turns off any and all modification to the video signal, including all OSD -at least on my tx nr5007. I do not have a 818, so I can't really confirm that it's the same.
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post #1001 of 10028 Old 07-10-2012, 02:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amt View Post

I guess it depends on what "skip" means. If you are referring to the multi-buttion press to bypass video processing, that turns off any and all modification to the video signal, including all OSD -at least on my tx nr5007. I do not have a 818, so I can't really confirm that it's the same.

I am referring to holding the BD/DVD button and then pressing "return". Then setting video processing to SKIP. When this is done, the OSD remains operational for menus, volume changes, etc. I can confirm this, because I have an 818 and have done it.
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post #1002 of 10028 Old 07-10-2012, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Barry Hartmann View Post

Hello 818 owners and followers! A friend of mine had the nerve of getting me looking at HT gear with one his recent purchases which of course triggered upgrade fever for me!
Here's my setup:
  • Dedicated HT - 11.5 ft x 20 ft (8 ft high), no windows. Two rows of power recliner seats, thick frieze type of carpet. Standard drywall finish on walls and ceiling. Dark earth tones color scheme.
  • Onkyo TX-SR706 AVR
  • Epson 8350 projector at rear wall of room to a fixed frame 106 inch screen (projects from equipment closet)
  • Polk Audio 265-RT in wall speakers (3 in front, 2 on side/rear)
  • Polk Audio DSW Pro 500 subwoofer
  • Sony BDP-360 BD player
  • Media Center PC - most things run through this, to include cable TV via HDHR Prime CATV tuner. Huge photos, music and movie collection sit on my home network and are accessed by this system and others in the house
  • XBox 360
Most people that come by think things sound and look great. I'm content but long for "bigger" sound. My upgrade path was going to begin with a SVS sub most likely but now I'm considering bumping the AVR first. I've had very, very good luck with Onkyo through the years so I'm thinking of sticking with them. Lots of the bells and whistles the 818 brings to the table will go unused by me. I don't plan on multi zones for this receiver, the internet apps don't do much for me since I have a huge collection already as well as existing streaming option through the Media Center PC. We use the theater mostly for movie watching and music (and music video) listening. The kids love that aspect of things. I'm a rocker by nature (Shinedown is a good example of my taste) so big and heavy equals goodness to me. Kids love all of the new stuff that is also heavy on the bass. I tried the Audyssey eq with my 707 and hated it. Seemed to shrink my music.
The big things that interest me about this is the bump in power, current HDMI standards, more HDMI inputs, the top of the line Audyssey feature and mostly the warm reviews from some pretty knowledgeable people on this forum.
I would really appreciate thoughts that any of you may wish to share regarding my setup and how the 818 may make a difference!

Giving this post a bump
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post #1003 of 10028 Old 07-10-2012, 04:14 PM - Thread Starter
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The biggest advantages of the 818 would be slightly more robust amps, newer HDMI specs, and the all important Audyssey XT32 processing.

Since you aren't interested in a lot of the advanced features, internet connectivity, etc, it's hard to say if this is the amp for you. The best thing for you to do would be to purchase it from a reseller with a good return policy and demo it in your own home. Everyone's setup and room are different and there's no one here with the same setup as you, so it's hard to make a recommendation based on your room/gear specifications.

Frankly, if I were in your shoes, I would tough it out with the amp you have and get that SVS subwoofer. That's the kind of upgrade that will blow your skirt up. The 818 is an improvement over what you have, and if you are a big movie buff then you might appreciate the XT32 processing for movies, but, again, I would think that a higher end subwoofer would be far more value for dollar than an AVR upgrade.
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post #1004 of 10028 Old 07-10-2012, 06:25 PM
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Jmpage

My 818 came in this afternoon and I set it up.

Initially plugged my HTPC (XBMC) into the PC input but then read that "film mode" is disabled on the PC input so I moved it to the BD/DVD input. I set the picture mode to "direct". There is still some video processing going on because I get volume and home button overlays.

I watched an entire episode of Eastbound and Down (in XBMC) second season and saw what I think you described - occasional stutters in the picture but seemingly at random. I then fired up Sparatcus and Fast Five (TV and Movie respectively). Both of these were perfect. No stuttering at all. All 3 of the things I watched were 1080p/24. I never paid attention before but shouldn't TV (E&D and Spartacus) be 60 Hz?

Could what we are seeing be a film mode issue? Eastbound and Down might classify as a video where Spartacus and Fast Five are movies. Could also be that I have bad encodes of Eastbound and Down but I don't remember any stutters when I watched it previously. I will get a chance to watch more later this week so I will see if any more stuttering creeps in.

Overall, I'm very happy with the 818. Audyssey setup seemed to go quicker - it seems like the delays between the chirps are less than XT on my 876. It also detected the crossover for my mains and center very differently from MultiEQ XT on the 876. Mains which were detected as Full on the 876 showed a 40Hz crossover on the 818. Center was 120Hz on the 876 and showed as 70Hz on the 818 - much closer to what they are actually rated. I bumped both up to 80Hz THX since I have an SVS.

Since I'm running 4 Ohm speakers (an easy 4 Ohm) I got a 120mm USB fan from cooler guys and pot it on the top in the back left corner blowing up. Keeps it relatively cool. I got oRemote for my iPhone and iPad - communications are a tad clunky but the app works pretty well and it's nice to be able to see the resolution and refresh of whatever is playing.

I'm testing letting the 818 deinterlace the 1080i signal from my TiVo also.

I will add further observations as I have time to watch more content.
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post #1005 of 10028 Old 07-10-2012, 06:49 PM - Thread Starter
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If the source of the movie/tv show is blu-ray then the frame rate is 23.976. If the source is DVD then I believe that it is 29.997.

Do you have XBMC set to "match refresh rate to source"?

What kind of video card do you have? Most are fairly inaccurate and will simply drop frames on their own to re-sync the video to the audio. You can press the 'o' key during playback to see a running tally of frame drops in XBMC and see if it is periodically incrementing.

In my case, XBMC was never incrementing frame drops, but they appeared to be happening. When I saw the problem on the PS3 that's when I was sure the problem was in the 818.
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post #1006 of 10028 Old 07-10-2012, 06:50 PM
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After Audessey XT32 calibration, can I change Level Calibration in the speaker setup? Or is this setting something I shouldn't mess with.
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post #1007 of 10028 Old 07-10-2012, 06:53 PM
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I just picked up an 818 to replace a Denon 2113 because I wasn't overly happy with the Denon. I love the Onkyo with the exception of the lack of AirPlay.

Also I noticed two minor annoyances:
1. When I fast forward or reverse Directv connected via HDMI I get clicks. This is consistent and I think it's normal but I dont recall the Denon doing this.

2. The volume knob on the unit seems a little strange. When I turn the knob the resistance seems to vary. After about a half turn I feel like there is more pressure needed to turn the knob. Again minor because I rarely use the knob to change volume but I would have thought the resistance would be consistent through the turn.

Otherwise I love the receiver. Sounds amazing!
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post #1008 of 10028 Old 07-10-2012, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

If the source of the movie/tv show is blu-ray then the frame rate is 23.976. If the source is DVD then I believe that it is 29.997.

Do you have XBMC set to "match refresh rate to source"?

What kind of video card do you have? Most are fairly inaccurate and will simply drop frames on their own to re-sync the video to the audio. You can press the 'o' key during playback to see a running tally of frame drops in XBMC and see if it is periodically incrementing.

In my case, XBMC was never incrementing frame drops, but they appeared to be happening. When I saw the problem on the PS3 that's when I was sure the problem was in the 818.

XBMC is set to match refresh rate of my tv to source. I switched my ATI 5770 over to a spare AMD 6450 per your suggestion. As I described, I only saw frame drops in 1 out of two tv shows and none of the movies I watched. I will check the frame drop show again tomorrow and see if it is actually dropping frames.
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post #1009 of 10028 Old 07-10-2012, 07:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Interesting. If you have the 6450 you probably are not dropping any frames on the PC. Guess we can compare more settings to see what is going on.
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post #1010 of 10028 Old 07-10-2012, 08:06 PM
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Hello,

I have an 808. Has anyone directly compared the 808 to the 818?

I am also interested int he denon 4311...has anyone compared the 818 to the 4311?

Thanks
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post #1011 of 10028 Old 07-10-2012, 08:15 PM
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I owned the 809 before the 818, I must say it is a nice improvement!

Home Theatre:
Onkyo TX-NR818
Onkyo C7030

DALI Zensor 7, Zensor 1, Vokal, DALI E-12F
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post #1012 of 10028 Old 07-10-2012, 08:44 PM
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When you calibrate with audyssey, does it allow you to calibrate each input(cable/sat,BD/DVD, and so on) separately or does one calibration setting does for all the input?
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post #1013 of 10028 Old 07-10-2012, 09:16 PM
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The one calibration is for all inputs.

Home Theatre:
Onkyo TX-NR818
Onkyo C7030

DALI Zensor 7, Zensor 1, Vokal, DALI E-12F
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post #1014 of 10028 Old 07-10-2012, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew P View Post

I just picked up an 818 to replace a Denon 2113 because I wasn't overly happy with the Denon. I love the Onkyo with the exception of the lack of AirPlay.
Also I noticed two minor annoyances:
1. When I fast forward or reverse Directv connected via HDMI I get clicks. This is consistent and I think it's normal but I dont recall the Denon doing this.
2. The volume knob on the unit seems a little strange. When I turn the knob the resistance seems to vary. After about a half turn I feel like there is more pressure needed to turn the knob. Again minor because I rarely use the knob to change volume but I would have thought the resistance would be consistent through the turn.
Otherwise I love the receiver. Sounds amazing!

Weird, I've never gotten any clicks when I fast forward or reverse DirecTV, at least when fast forwarding through commercials or using skip back/forward. Do you have to fast forward for a while for it to click? Maybe its a DirecTV DVR model specific issue. I have an HR21/700.
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post #1015 of 10028 Old 07-10-2012, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by theoneofgod View Post

The one calibration is for all inputs.
So how come Direct TV sounds better and louder at lower volume than Blu-Ray movies?
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post #1016 of 10028 Old 07-10-2012, 10:47 PM
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Direct TV?
Pure Audio and Direct do bypass the calibration, I think THX may not allow it either, with loudness plus enabled.

Home Theatre:
Onkyo TX-NR818
Onkyo C7030

DALI Zensor 7, Zensor 1, Vokal, DALI E-12F
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post #1017 of 10028 Old 07-11-2012, 12:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theoneofgod View Post

Direct TV?
Pure Audio and Direct do bypass the calibration, I think THX may not allow it either, with loudness plus enabled.
Let me rephrase my post. It seems that CBL/SAT input that my Direct TV is connected to gives clearer and better sound than BD/DVD input my Blu-Ray player is connected to. It doesn't matter what I am watching on my Blu-Ray player whether DVD movie or Blu-Ray movie, sound is all over the place. At same volume(as when I am watching Direct TV), the dialog is heard to hear and background sound is way too loud.
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post #1018 of 10028 Old 07-11-2012, 12:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dumbasbell View Post

Let me rephrase my post. It seems that CBL/SAT input that my Direct TV is connected to gives clearer and better sound than BD/DVD input my Blu-Ray player is connected to. It doesn't matter what I am watching on my Blu-Ray player whether DVD movie or Blu-Ray movie, sound is all over the place. At same volume(as when I am watching Direct TV), the dialog is heard to hear and background sound is way too loud.

There are a couple of reasons why this can happen. Visit the Audyssey thread or the FAQ and you'll sure get an answer.

Markus

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post #1019 of 10028 Old 07-11-2012, 12:58 AM
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Oh, I see, sorry for misunderstanding. That is the problem with most audio mixes on movies, they are mixed at reference level which is pretty high. I turn Dynamic EQ on, Dynamic Vol light/low, and Late night mode to light/low when I struggle to hear the dialog at night. It really depends on the source.

Home Theatre:
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Onkyo C7030

DALI Zensor 7, Zensor 1, Vokal, DALI E-12F
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post #1020 of 10028 Old 07-11-2012, 02:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

The biggest advantages of the 818 would be slightly more robust amps, newer HDMI specs, and the all important Audyssey XT32 processing.
Since you aren't interested in a lot of the advanced features, internet connectivity, etc, it's hard to say if this is the amp for you. The best thing for you to do would be to purchase it from a reseller with a good return policy and demo it in your own home. Everyone's setup and room are different and there's no one here with the same setup as you, so it's hard to make a recommendation based on your room/gear specifications.
Frankly, if I were in your shoes, I would tough it out with the amp you have and get that SVS subwoofer. That's the kind of upgrade that will blow your skirt up. The 818 is an improvement over what you have, and if you are a big movie buff then you might appreciate the XT32 processing for movies, but, again, I would think that a higher end subwoofer would be far more value for dollar than an AVR upgrade.

Thanks for the reply! That was the path I was on until my buddy diverted me with his recent purchase. My AVR update was something I planned on doing 18 to 24 months down the line but my sub was something that was in line to be replaced first. It was my sub from my old house before I had a dedicated HT but was good enough for me to get by with to keep the build costs down.
Barry Hartmann is offline  
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

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Onkyo Tx Nr818 , Receivers Amplifiers , Onkyo , Audyssey
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