Denon 2312CI not impressed... - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 159 Old 05-31-2012, 08:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tandy1000rl View Post

How many cubic feet is the combined "open space"? If there is no wall between the tv room and other rooms, say the kitchen, include those spaces as well in your calc.

Audyssey needs a different target curve in very large rooms. It rolls off the treble more rapidly than the curve built into your receiver.

Look in the Denon menu under Audio Adjust->Parameter Check->EQ (I think) and review the Audyssey (not Flat) graph. What kind of boost are you getting in the treble for the front speakers per that graph?

You also may have a defective mic.

Hi Tandy, i can find the graph but not sure how to read it. When u say it needs a diff target curve for large rooms how would set that?
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post #92 of 159 Old 05-31-2012, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Zaksbro View Post


Hi Tandy, i can find the graph but not sure how to read it. When u say it needs a diff target curve for large rooms how would set that?

Hehe...you don't. Only available on Pro-enabled receivers which the 2312 isn't.

The left side of each graph is the bass, while the right side is treble. If you see yellow bands above the horizontal centerline on the right side of the graph, Audyssey is boosting your treble. The vertical scale ranges from -10dB (cut) to +10dB (boost). How high do your yellow bands go on the treble side?
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post #93 of 159 Old 05-31-2012, 09:11 PM
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I can't see the diagram in the attachment but looking at your previous description and looking at the room I think you've just got a lot of work ahead of you to get better results at your LP. I dont think it's the equipment particularly, but the room(s) and where you're placing the speakers and yourself (and ceiling speakers? bleaah!). I know we all have room constraints, but...

ps Keep trying the Audyssey for now, unless you really want to go manual and do that right...you're getting lots of good advice here so far.

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post #94 of 159 Old 05-31-2012, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Zaksbro View Post


Thanks i'll give that a shot. Is it possible my musical sources are just crap? meaning all my sonos and appletv music is mostly compressed. I could understand that maybe not sounding so great but a CD should sound good right?

The CD should sound good. Try focusing on using that as the source when you test settings to take the possibility of compressed audio compromising the sound out of the equation. Once you get the CD source worked out, the others should all into place. If you have a CD you know very well, use that as you work on settings.
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post #95 of 159 Old 06-01-2012, 04:30 AM
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Originally Posted by tandy1000rl View Post

Hehe...you don't. Only available on Pro-enabled receivers which the 2312 isn't.

Actually the 2312CI is Pro ready, however, doubt you'll find too many 2312CI owner's buying the Pro kit which costs as much or more than the AVR.

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post #96 of 159 Old 06-01-2012, 04:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaksbro View Post

All, here is a diagram of my living room. On either side of the TV are the 2 Front Focals and center under the TV. to the left of the closet and sits the subwoofer. The rears are in the ceiling just about above the 2 end tables. Of note as i said before the room is not ideal I'm sure. Its a big open space pretty much. I hope this helps. i can send pics also if needed. Let me know please.

Thanks again!

Most likely your biggest issue is the couch is off axis from the front mains. Consider either sliding the couch around to face the TV directly or slide the TV to the left to face the couch directly.

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post #97 of 159 Old 06-01-2012, 05:08 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post


Actually the 2312CI is Pro ready, however, doubt you'll find too many 2312CI owner's buying the Pro kit which costs as much or more than the AVR.

Ahh good catch. Thought it was 3312 and above only. My bad. :-)
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post #98 of 159 Old 06-01-2012, 05:35 AM
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I ran Audyssey by holding the mic in my hand, putting it on the couch and on the table and it sounds ok. This is before reading all this and the other dedicated thread. I hate spending 30-40 bucks on something i'll likely never use again. has anyone fabricated a usuable device using household stuff?

Like i said it sounds ok but not as warm as my other room. I also don't have a difficult room like the OP. mine is a simple rectangle with the couch in the middle, tv on far wall, very easy speaker placement. I can't wait to set up audyssey properly.

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post #99 of 159 Old 06-01-2012, 05:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post


Most likely your biggest issue is the couch is off axis from the front mains. Consider either sliding the couch around to face the TV directly or slide the TV to the left to face the couch directly.

That's just not possible. The room would look ridiculous that way.
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post #100 of 159 Old 06-01-2012, 05:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpcamaro70 View Post

I ran Audyssey by holding the mic in my hand, putting it on the couch and on the table and it sounds ok. This is before reading all this and the other dedicated thread. I hate spending 30-40 bucks on something i'll likely never use again. has anyone fabricated a usuable device using household stuff?

Like i said it sounds ok but not as warm as my other room. I also don't have a difficult room like the OP. mine is a simple rectangle with the couch in the middle, tv on far wall, very easy speaker placement. I can't wait to set up audyssey properly.

Whenever you change equipment, positions, furniture in the room, etc. you should re-run Audyssey, so it's likely not a one shot purchase. We pay a lot for our gear, an additional $30 to help it sound right isn't hard to justify.

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post #101 of 159 Old 06-01-2012, 05:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaksbro View Post

That's just not possible. The room would look ridiculous that way.

In your eyes perhaps ... in others, not so much (although understand that it mostly depends on WAF so you may be stuck with what you've got). However, perhaps other furniture configurations are possible ... the point is with your speakers currently on axis with the right side of your couch, you'll likely never get as good a surround field as would be possible if they were more on axis with the center of the couch .... so keep that in perspective.

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post #102 of 159 Old 06-01-2012, 05:58 AM
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Zaksbro, while with HT audyssey made a huge difference in sound I don't use it for 2 channel music listening. The audyssey setting I use for 2 channel sources is to bypass front L & R speakers, only allowing the magic to happen with sub eq.

There is a larger issue at play here, if your music is not pleasing regardless, audyssey is going to be little help. Placement settings, some room correction may be in order. How does a movie sound after audyssey? Any improvement?

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post #103 of 159 Old 06-01-2012, 06:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpcamaro70 View Post

I ran Audyssey by holding the mic in my hand, putting it on the couch and on the table and it sounds ok. This is before reading all this and the other dedicated thread. I hate spending 30-40 bucks on something i'll likely never use again. has anyone fabricated a usuable device using household stuff?

Like i said it sounds ok but not as warm as my other room. I also don't have a difficult room like the OP. mine is a simple rectangle with the couch in the middle, tv on far wall, very easy speaker placement. I can't wait to set up audyssey properly.

If you check on Amazon, you can find camera tripods for $10-$20 (or check with local garage sales as I picked one up for $10 that way). You can also try using a tall but thin lamp that you screw the mic to by taking off the lampshade. As nethawk noted, you're likely to have to run AUTO SETUP multiple times over the life of the AVR.

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post #104 of 159 Old 06-01-2012, 06:03 AM
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Corner placement is often difficult. Can you swap couch and display/speakers so that the flat wall is your entertainment center?

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post #105 of 159 Old 06-01-2012, 06:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

Corner placement is often difficult. Can you swap couch and display/speakers so that the flat wall is your entertainment center?

Not really nethawk. What you dont see in the diagram is there's an open hallway behind and next to that closet (behind where the TV is now). The only decent spot for the couch is the back wall i have it on. I've attached an updated diagram depicting the spkr placements better.
LL
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post #106 of 159 Old 06-01-2012, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaksbro View Post

Not really nethawk. What you dont see in the diagram is there's an open hallway behind and next to that closet (behind where the TV is now). The only decent spot for the couch is the back wall i have it on. I've attached an updated diagram depicting the spkr placements better.

Hi Zaksbro,

I think propoer speaker set up is always half success. Check out Dolby's recommendations on Home Theater Speaker Setup guidelines.

Even temporarily you could try to set up your system as recommended by Dolby. Night and day will be the difference you will experiense.
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post #107 of 159 Old 06-01-2012, 07:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Zaksbro,

I think propoer speaker set up is always half success. Check out Dolby's recommendations on Home Theater Speaker Setup guidelines.

Even temporarily you could try to set up your system as recommended by Dolby. Night and day will be the difference you will experiense.

Thanks for the suggestion but my speakers need to be where they currently are. The room really can't be rearranged unfortunately for me.
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post #108 of 159 Old 06-01-2012, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Zaksbro View Post

Thanks for the suggestion but my speakers need to be where they currently are. The room really can't be rearranged unfortunately for me.

While it won't solve the speaker placement problem, you might be able get some improvement by playing with the toe in of your speakers. Have you tried angling the FL more toward your listening position and the FR just a bit off center?
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post #109 of 159 Old 06-01-2012, 07:43 AM - Thread Starter
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While it won't solve the speaker placement problem, you might be able get some improvement by playing with the toe in of your speakers. Have you tried angling the FL more toward your listening position and the FR just a bit off center?

I have the audio guy coming over tonight so we'll try some stuff im sure. One easy thing for me to try which i think you or someone suggested is to slide the tv and front speakers over so they are in front of the couch instead of diagonal to it. Im just having a hard time thinking it will make that much of a difference. Do you really think it will? I will say that last night watching TV sounded pretty awesome when watching in Dolby surround. So i think the home theater aspect is getting better. I just cant understand why music sounds so crappy. This is really frustrating! But i appreciate all the feedback guys. Im learning alot!
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post #110 of 159 Old 06-01-2012, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaksbro View Post

I have the audio guy coming over tonight so we'll try some stuff im sure. One easy thing for me to try which i think you or someone suggested is to slide the tv and front speakers over so they are in front of the couch instead of diagonal to it. Im just having a hard time thinking it will make that much of a difference. Do you really think it will? I will say that last night watching TV sounded pretty awesome when watching in Dolby surround. So i think the home theater aspect is getting better. I just cant understand why music sounds so crappy. This is really frustrating! But i appreciate all the feedback guys. Im learning alot!

YES! if you can move the speakers and TV in front of the couch so your listening position is centered between the speakers, you should definitely try it. I think it will make more difference than anything else discussed and will then enable Audyssey to put a few "finishing touches" on your setup rather than trying to resolve a major acoustical issue.

Nothing to lose - you can always put it back in the current position if it doesn't work, but it really should help stereo imaging. A lot. Since a good percentage of TV broadcast in Dolby surround uses the center speaker heavily, it makes sense for that to be coming together with your latest Audyssey run, even with the current FL/FR position still less than optimal.
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post #111 of 159 Old 06-01-2012, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaksbro View Post

I have the audio guy coming over tonight so we'll try some stuff im sure. One easy thing for me to try which i think you or someone suggested is to slide the tv and front speakers over so they are in front of the couch instead of diagonal to it. Im just having a hard time thinking it will make that much of a difference. Do you really think it will? I will say that last night watching TV sounded pretty awesome when watching in Dolby surround. So i think the home theater aspect is getting better. I just cant understand why music sounds so crappy. This is really frustrating! But i appreciate all the feedback guys. Im learning alot!

i can (and so do the others trying to help you... )...

what you are "having a hard time thinking will make a difference" is EXACTLY what your issue is... 2 channel is always going to sound like crap the way you have it arranged...

if you absolutely can't change it, something that might help a little is toeing in the speakers HARD...

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post #112 of 159 Old 06-01-2012, 09:30 AM
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Bass Settings in my Denon 2312:

Subwoofer Mode: LFE
LPF for LFE -> 80HZ

Crossover Frequency: Freq - Adv

Dyn Vol -> Day

Please let me know if this is Optimal setting or should I need to tweak somewhere?
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post #113 of 159 Old 06-01-2012, 10:02 AM
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^^^

Raj, if that sounds good to you then it's optimal

Seriously, every situation is different. Your configuration is similar to what I use on my Dish receiver and various streaming devices (google tv, panasonic tv, WD HD Live for local video, Netflix, Hulu etc), but for blu-ray and music sources I prefer not to use dynamic volume, and for music I do not use audyssey for my front L/R speakers at all.

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post #114 of 159 Old 06-01-2012, 10:11 AM
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I agree Nethawk....

For me it looks somewhat OK....But then I was expecting a full sound from my Sub-Woofer with that size....I have 5.1 MartinLogan MLT2.

So want to know from experts what should I do to maximize the efficiency from my Sub-Woofer...
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post #115 of 159 Old 06-01-2012, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rajkumark View Post

Bass Settings in my Denon 2312:

Subwoofer Mode: LFE
LPF for LFE -> 80HZ

Crossover Frequency: Freq - Adv

Dyn Vol -> Day

Please let me know if this is Optimal setting or should I need to tweak somewhere?

raj,

Maybe you have not noticed or its purely by accident, but you have just hijacked this thread. We're trying to help the OP setup his system. Any good advice on your side to the OP will be most welcome (mainly by the OP).

Take care!
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post #116 of 159 Old 06-01-2012, 10:19 AM
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Seldom is any room setup perfectly to pull double duty as a living room and as a "media / HT" room.
Also seldom have I seen a more challenging room layout especially considering where the ceiling speakers are located.
I know peace and harmony have to be kept (and maybe you yourself are dead set against rearranging the room), but if it was me and my wife we would put the TV where the couch is, and arrange the furniture out in the room so the primary listening / viewing position was roughly centered with the TV.
I would use the existing ceiling speakers as front height speakers (or don't use them at all) and get new speakers for surround duties.
Everyone is different but in my home the TV and the audio gear are the primary entertainment and the room setup caters to that.
Good luck with your setup, if the entertainment center and furniture cannot be moved the audio problem isn't really with the Denon, no AVR will be able to compensate for the location issues.

Regards,
Charlie

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post #117 of 159 Old 06-01-2012, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

if you absolutely can't change it, something that might help a little is toeing in the speakers HARD...

With rare exception, you can always "change it." You set priorities and accept compromises. If you place aesthetics/WAF ahead of sound quality, then you have cast your lot.

I do not intend this specifically toward the OP; this is purely a generalization. But I grow weary of those who set up in essence lifestyle systems, then expect them to perform on par with a purposefully configured home theater and/or audio systems.

AJ
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post #118 of 159 Old 06-01-2012, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rajkumark View Post

I agree Nethawk....

For me it looks somewhat OK....But then I was expecting a full sound from my Sub-Woofer with that size....I have 5.1 MartinLogan MLT2.

So want to know from experts what should I do to maximize the efficiency from my Sub-Woofer...

Raj, you should perhaps request advice from the Audyssey thread members.

Good luck!

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post #119 of 159 Old 06-01-2012, 11:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chashint View Post

Seldom is any room setup perfectly to pull double duty as a living room and as a "media / HT" room.
Also seldom have I seen a more challenging room layout especially considering where the ceiling speakers are located.
I know peace and harmony have to be kept (and maybe you yourself are dead set against rearranging the room), but if it was me and my wife we would put the TV where the couch is, and arrange the furniture out in the room so the primary listening / viewing position was roughly centered with the TV.
I would use the existing ceiling speakers as front height speakers (or don't use them at all) and get new speakers for surround duties.
Everyone is different but in my home the TV and the audio gear are the primary entertainment and the room setup caters to that.
Good luck with your setup, if the entertainment center and furniture cannot be moved the audio problem isn't really with the Denon, no AVR will be able to compensate for the location issues.

@bfreedma and @chashint, first thing i'll try is moving eveything over like i mentioned and see what i get. Im not dead set against swapping the couch and TV areas, my biggest quandary is that i mounted the ceiling speakers and are using the closet as media storage right now. if it turns out this diagonal setup is really the issue re-running wires and the like will be another b&tch of a job this weekend. (i realize now i should never have done this until i had the sound and room right i guess). As for the ceiling spkrs i like them alot but will need to most likely repurpose them to the other side of the room if i swap this setup around. But first things first, lets see how it sounds tonight before i start getting crazy with moving things. Thanks again guys!
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post #120 of 159 Old 06-01-2012, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rajkumark View Post

I agree Nethawk....

For me it looks somewhat OK....But then I was expecting a full sound from my Sub-Woofer with that size....I have 5.1 MartinLogan MLT2.

So want to know from experts what should I do to maximize the efficiency from my Sub-Woofer...

Had the mlt2 before. Good stuff. Why do you have the lpf at 80? Id keep it at 120

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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