Understanding HT Labs results for TX-SR606 - AVS Forum
Receivers, Amps, and Processors > Understanding HT Labs results for TX-SR606
TheGSRGuy's Avatar TheGSRGuy 02:10 PM 06-07-2012
HT Labs Measures: Onkyo TX-SR606 A/V Receiver

Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1 percent distortion at 81.2 watts
1 percent distortion at 109.4 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1 percent distortion at 73.2 watts
1 percent distortion at 87.4 watts


Does this mean I will get cleaner sound if I do NOT bi-amp the front speakers? Is the difference in distortion going to be that noticeable? I rarely push the volume over "40".

Speakers are Polk RTi10, if it matters.

mjpearce023's Avatar mjpearce023 02:21 PM 06-07-2012
If you have the speaker wire already it won’t cost you anything to try it but its very doubtful that you get any benefits.
TheGSRGuy's Avatar TheGSRGuy 05:12 PM 06-10-2012
My question is whether or not the wattage drop is significant enough to affect how they sound.
fjames's Avatar fjames 06:44 PM 06-10-2012
You'd have (at the .1% level) ~80% more power available when bi-amping.
mcsoul's Avatar mcsoul 07:09 PM 06-10-2012
Try it both ways, if it sounds better bi-amped then go for it.
JHAz's Avatar JHAz 07:09 PM 06-10-2012
Except that the tweeter needs about 10 or 20 percent of the power that the rest of the spectrum does, so you'll never use the power. Assuming you could use it, the potential SPL difference is 3 dB. I don't think I heard any difference going from biamped to non biamped, but of course if you have the wire it can't hurt you to try it. There is a poster from Anthem who suggests that biamping can make a difference IF you are runing the amp on the bass and mids into clipping. The amp handling the treble wil be outputting far less, and will not be clipping so the upper harmonics of the clipping amp never reach the tweeter, so the clipping doesn't sound as bad
ccotenj's Avatar ccotenj 06:58 AM 06-11-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by fjames View Post

You'd have (at the .1% level) ~80% more power available when bi-amping.

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fjames's Avatar fjames 01:06 PM 06-11-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

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146W vs. 82W. What's not to like smile.gif
ccotenj's Avatar ccotenj 01:15 PM 06-11-2012
^^^^

ummm... it doesn't work that way, sorry... passively bi-amping adds little, if any, power to the individual drivers, and places an unnecessary load on the power supply....

hint: you are sending the same signal out on both outputs... guess what the passive xover in the speaker does with the frequencies that each driver doesn't need? .

it may seem "obvious" that you are increasing your power to the speaker.... that "obvious" conclusion is wrong... guess what would happen to your tweeters if that "obvious" conclusion was correct? as one who made a "boo boo" while installing an active setup (in a car) before, i can tell you that the results wouldn't be good....
fjames's Avatar fjames 01:46 PM 06-11-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^^
ummm... it doesn't work that way, sorry... passively bi-amping adds little, if any, power to the individual drivers, and places an unnecessary load on the power supply....
hint: you are sending the same signal out on both outputs... guess what the passive xover in the speaker does with the frequencies that each driver doesn't need? .
it may seem "obvious" that you are increasing your power to the speaker.... that "obvious" conclusion is wrong... guess what would happen to your tweeters if that "obvious" conclusion was correct? as one who made a "boo boo" while installing an active setup (in a car) before, i can tell you that the results wouldn't be good....
You can look at it a lot of ways, I was just doing the simple math - more total power. That the power supply in most AVRs is inadequate doesn't count, it's like saying you should only run a 7 channel AVR with two channels to save the power supply.

For me the main thing is (just my theory/POV) getting the best power to the high frequency section. Without having to share with the woofer, I figure you've at least got a chance of cleaner power to the highs. Of course, you're limiting power to the woofer, but problems there are much less fatiguing/annoying than treble issues, and the sub helps. Some people say that the highs need much less power, and that's true in steady tone testing, but treble transients can suck a lot of juice, so every little bit helps.
TheGSRGuy's Avatar TheGSRGuy 07:08 AM 06-12-2012
I'm well aware that running dedicated amps is better but I'm not ready to spend that kind of money. The Onkyo is fine for now.

After reading the HT Labs specs, it sounds like you take a hit on power output and sound quality by running 7-ch (bi-amp) versus 5 (non-bi-amp). Just didn't know if that was within the limits of what I can hear, or if it's nit-picking.
fjames's Avatar fjames 11:12 AM 06-12-2012
http://www.hometheater.com/content/marantz-sr6006-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

There's something to worry about if you like worrying about stuff biggrin.gif Different brand, but they're all the same. Its the primary reason separate amps sound better - sucky power supplies in AVRs.
JHAz's Avatar JHAz 01:13 PM 06-12-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by fjames View Post

You can look at it a lot of ways, I was just doing the simple math - more total power. That the power supply in most AVRs is inadequate doesn't count, it's like saying you should only run a 7 channel AVR with two channels to save the power supply.
For me the main thing is (just my theory/POV) getting the best power to the high frequency section. Without having to share with the woofer, I figure you've at least got a chance of cleaner power to the highs. Of course, you're limiting power to the woofer, but problems there are much less fatiguing/annoying than treble issues, and the sub helps. Some people say that the highs need much less power, and that's true in steady tone testing, but treble transients can suck a lot of juice, so every little bit helps.

There's a reason that, for exmple, JBL's roughly $4700 each VT4887A line array speaker units have max continuous power of 1000 watts for the low frequency driver and 225 watts for the high frequency driver. It's not because JBL wants them to blow up under normal conditions of use. It's because there is just less power needed for the treble energy in real content. Peaks or no.

FIgure the tweeter content will be around 20 to 25% of total power and you're right about there. So biamping is highly unlikely to limit power to the woofers because unless you play white noise very very loudly or have a catastrophic failure of some kind, the treble side amps will never get anywhere close to whatever their full power is, even if you have to double the power to account for a 3 dB pad on the tweeter (often significantly more efficient than the woofers). And you'll theoretically add about one dB to the potential clean SPL of the system, maybe.

As I said above, I buy the idea that if you are going to drive your system into distortion, biamping may keep the uglies out of the tweeter section, which can only be good for the health of the tweeter. But 1 KHz is pretty high, and your tweeter likely crosses over above that, meaning you'll still get to hear a fair amount of the distortion. As far as audibility, look at it this way: pretty much every guitar speaker whose specs I've ever looked at has a FR peak somewhere between 1000 and 2000 Hz then drops like a rock. The voice coil functions as a low pass coil, preventing that energy from reaching the cone. But you can sure as shootin hear the distortion in guitar sounds from Hendrix to EVH to Al DiMeola. If you biamp and drive the woofer amp into distortion that would be audible full range, it'll almost certainly be audible biamped. Just missing that sense of "air." smile.gif
fjames's Avatar fjames 03:06 PM 06-12-2012
Good post, you made me laugh. My distortion is missing air smile.gif Guitar speaker drivers are what, 6-8"? I have a few semi-pro musician friends, and yeah, you sure can hear it, never thought of that. I don't squint when I hear it though, it sounds good biggrin.gif
Nick @ Anthem's Avatar Nick @ Anthem 10:35 AM 06-13-2012
For the OP, if the only thing that has to be added to the system is some wire, biamping can help by restricting playback of harmonic distortion to the amp section generating it, should it be pushed into clipping. It can't hurt outside of setup mistakes like not removing the speaker's jumpers. There is no change in power use or output.

For those wishing to further discuss passive biamping, I'll respond only to points not already in the discussions linked below. The first thing that needs to be understood by those who have guessed and just as quickly concluded that passive crossovers waste power in biamp mode is that if this was true, resistors in a crossover would hardly be smaller than those a load bank. Impedance doesn't work like that.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1285389/bi-amping-question

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1182573/bi-amp-question

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1403074/trying-to-bi-amp-front-speakers-without-giving-up-rear-surrounds
Tags: Onkyo Tx Sr606 Receiver
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