Amps do make a difference .... Butler Amps are Amazing ! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 60 Old 06-07-2012, 08:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Everyone who told me An amp won't change my sound and wont make a difference are just wrong .... This Butler Amp with my Onkyo TX-NR5009 for my Klipsch RF-7 II setup is just what I needed and anyone with Klipsch should check out these amps ..... Better then the Onkyo sound , I went back and forth like 15 times with the same songs and movie parts ... You hear stuff in the movie you wouldn't hear with the Onkyo ... Detailing is just Amazing and a little warmer not much but you can tell the difference and you can make it as loud as you can no distortion , try to push my Onkyo to the same Spl level and it sounded way way too Bright ......The Butler just kept going .... Take a look it is so worth the money ! And if an Amp don't change the sound then why do people that buy some tube Amps change the tubes ...... Hummmmmm ? hope this help people know the truth and don't listen to people that think they know everything .... I Proved it !!!!
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post #2 of 60 Old 06-08-2012, 12:14 AM
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Are you making money of this ?
I saw you trumpeting this on several threads...
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post #3 of 60 Old 06-08-2012, 04:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeTheater1010 View Post

Everyone who told me An amp won't change my sound and wont make a difference are just wrong .... This Butler Amp with my Onkyo TX-NR5009 for my Klipsch RF-7 II setup is just what I needed and anyone with Klipsch should check out these amps ..... Better then the Onkyo sound , I went back and forth like 15 times with the same songs and movie parts ... You hear stuff in the movie you wouldn't hear with the Onkyo ... Detailing is just Amazing and a little warmer not much but you can tell the difference and you can make it as loud as you can no distortion , try to push my Onkyo to the same Spl level and it sounded way way too Bright ......The Butler just kept going .... Take a look it is so worth the money ! And if an Amp don't change the sound then why do people that buy some tube Amps change the tubes ...... Hummmmmm ? hope this help people know the truth and don't listen to people that think they know everything .... I Proved it !!!!

Thats cool that you are happy with the amp and the tube sound. Some like the tube sound while some do not like that the "sound is changed". It is all a matter of preference. As far as knowing the truth and "I Proved it!!!!" are more your opinions than actual facts IMO.

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post #4 of 60 Old 06-08-2012, 07:07 AM
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If they're like the old Butler car amps, they do indeed sound different from high-fidelity amps.

The reason is that Butler intentionally introduces a bump in the midrange that seems to make them sound more "detailed" and "warm," especially on an initial listen. Interestingly, that's the exact language you use. But because of that they're not high-fidelity devices. For am amp, "high fidelity" means that the output is just a bigger version of the input.

The "tube sound" knob on the old car ones was in fact just an adjustment of the level of the midrange bump (mplemented using standard solid state devices, of course) though I don't think there was a setting where the amp was a high-fidelity device. There was always some midrange coloration.

Bottom line is what you're hearing is way more likely than not just FR aberrations in the Butlers than anything innate to glass v. sand, or some other unspecified magic.

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post #5 of 60 Old 06-08-2012, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by gurkey View Post

Are you making money of this ?
I saw you trumpeting this on several threads...

oh yes he is (trying to), like many others here trying to sell stuff smile.gif
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post #6 of 60 Old 06-08-2012, 08:33 AM
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Many people here think all amps sound the same. So there is no differance between using a $10 car 12volt amp or a $50k pair of Krell mono blocks. A watt is a watt, all watts sound the same. So enjoy what you think you hear and the other crowd will ignore you.

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post #7 of 60 Old 06-08-2012, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr_Mark View Post

To many people here think all amps sound the same. So there is no differance between using a $10 car 12volt amp or a $50k pair of Krell mono blocks. So enjoy what you think you hear and the other crowd will ignore you.

A less intellectually dishonest characterization of the position you assail would be the following:

when there is a sonic difference between amps, it is because of poor performance on the part of one of them, that can be measured to exceed known just-noticeable-difference thresholds for those properties.

Often, those differences are frequency response, output impedance (as low as possible is high-fidelity, close to the impedance of the loudspeakers is lower in fidelity to the input signal), crossover distortion, or noise/hizz/hum. Clipping is also often audible, if amps have wide power disparities.

In the case stated here, a Butler amp vs. an amp designed for high fidelity, given the same designer's other products (note that the front of the Butler home amps is styled after their car amps), one can make a reasonable case that:

(a) there is a sonic difference, AND
(b) the sonic difference is a result of intentional coloration (FR bump) in the midrange.

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post #8 of 60 Old 06-08-2012, 08:59 AM
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To many, a watt is a watt, if it does not distort, then they are exactly the same. How many arguments for this refuse to even think there could be coloration of sound? Then gasp... they would not sound the same. I believe there is a sonic differance. But I also believe a lot of amp's, do sound the same.

Using the watt is a watt argument, then a $10 car amp, sounds just like a $50k Krell at non distorting volumes.

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post #9 of 60 Old 06-08-2012, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Mark View Post

To many, a watt is a watt, if it does not distort, then they are exactly the same.

Take out the "to many," and what you write is objectively true.

That is also basically what I just wrote. "Distortion" covers designed-in FR aberrations, FR aberrations due to high output impedance, crossover distortion, noise/hum/hiss, etc.
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How many arguments for this refuse to even think there could be coloration of sound? Then gasp... they would not sound the same.

You're attacking strawmen here. Nobody thinks an amp with an intentional FR bump from 2-6 kHz (like the Butler car amps, and probably their home amps as well) is going to sound the same as a high-fidelity amplifier.

There can obviously be coloration of sound, if an amp is broken, if an amp is incompetently designed, or if the designer intentionally tailored the frequency response of the amp to make it a non-high-fidelity device, as Butler is known to do with their car amp
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Originally Posted by Dr_Mark View Post

I believe there is a sonic differance. But I also believe a lot of amp's, do sound the same.

This area is simply not appropriate for "belief." An educated person does not "believe" in something that is in fact a falsifiable claim, such as the presence sonic differences between two amplifiers.

An educated person of reasonable intelligence instead looks to the available data that tests for that variable (sonic difference), while leaving everything else (relative level, brand, etc.) constant. Those data all show that what I wrote above ("when there is a sonic difference between amps, it is because of poor performance on the part of one of them, that can be measured to exceed known just-noticeable-difference thresholds for those properties.") to be correct.
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Using the watt is a watt argument, then a $10 car amp, sounds just like a $50k Krell at non distorting volumes.

I've never seen a "$10 car amp," let alone heard one. But there's little reason to expect a difference a priori.

Krell amps, while fairly simple and crude in design, are designed for high fidelity (flat FR, low noise, low output impedance), so they soundn't any different from a good reasonably-priced car amp fed from a stout 12-14.4V power supply. Or a typical AVR.
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post #10 of 60 Old 06-08-2012, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

There can obviously be coloration of sound, if an amp is broken, if an amp is incompetently designed, or if the designer intentionally tailored the frequency response of the amp to make it a non-high-fidelity device, as Butler is known to do with their car amp
This area is simply not appropriate for "belief." An educated person does not "believe" in something that is in fact a falsifiable claim, such as the presence sonic differences between two amplifiers. .

Do you follow this with only amps or would you base your purchase of a speaker on graphs and freq responses too? As to your “educated person of reasonable intelligence” and other comments, I don't subscribe to that opinion. I can only feel happy for you that all audio companies follow the same test path and always subscribe to the same test methodology.
Why bother with more than one audio company? Just start your own and add an IC chip to dial in your own requirements of what is perfect.

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post #11 of 60 Old 06-08-2012, 12:47 PM
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Do you follow this with only amps or would you base your purchase of a speaker on graphs and freq responses too?

Amps, digital sources, line level electronics.

As for speakers...simply out of the scope of any discussion of electronic "sound." They are just far more complicated devices, and have much higher variance in performance.

That said, given a design of a type that works for my use (sufficient cone area for suitable dynamics, constrained treble directivity, closed box or pluggable ports), suitably comprehensive measurements (design axis FR, horizontal and vertical polars), and a static visual display (important, because a speaker is also room furniture.), I would not feel a need to listen first, no. But people without that experience definitely should take the effort to correlate their observed preferences to measurements.

Speakers are just tools. There's nothing romantic about anything in the audio chain, except for the music encoded in the source file (or grooves).
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As to your “educated person of reasonable intelligence” and other comments, I don't subscribe to that opinion.

It's not an opinion. Yes, there are people who wish to deny reality in all manner of fields. Presumably, someone somewhere still thinks that disease is caused by evil animal spirits, or that the earth is flat, or that President Obama is not an American citizen. They are, like people who ascribe magic powers to electronic circuits, simply wrong.
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Why bother with more than one audio company?

Because there are plenty of other relevant factors beyond simple sound quality. (And some that affect sound quality, such as signal processing for room correction.) A few of them are appearance, ergonomics, features, expected resale value, brand snobbery, warranty length/conditions, form factor, energy efficiency, and those types of things.

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post #12 of 60 Old 06-08-2012, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Mark View Post

Do you follow this with only amps or would you base your purchase of a speaker on graphs and freq responses too? As to your “educated person of reasonable intelligence” and other comments, I don't subscribe to that opinion. I can only feel happy for you that all audio companies follow the same test path and always subscribe to the same test methodology.
Why bother with more than one audio company? Just start your own and add an IC chip to dial in your own requirements of what is perfect.

Really? What part of "An educated person does not "believe" in something that is in fact a falsifiable claim" don't you "believe"?

And yes, when within spec, a $100 amp will sound just like a $50000 amp.

Just like a Target $100 purse does the same job as a $90000 Hermes purse. There are all sorts of reasons to buy an expensive amp, but in many cases, sound quality may not be a valid reason.
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post #13 of 60 Old 06-09-2012, 03:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Listen I'm not trying to sell anything ... I'm just telling watt I heard ...lol same part in a movie 15x ... A little warmer and more sounds and detail at the same DB level ... Just telling it how it is ... Do I think it's worth that money now after a 4 days ... Yes .. I do . Amazing the sounds I haven't heard in some Movies I hear now ..... Again Why do people change Tubes in Amps ..So it sounds Different ... Wake up ...
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post #14 of 60 Old 06-09-2012, 08:27 PM
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The Klipsch speakers have a fairly tough impedance curve. Having an increase in "brightness" from the Onkyo with high level playback makes sense when you see an impedance dip below 4 ohms in the mid bass of the speakers. Even a top of the line receiver has a compromised amp section.
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post #15 of 60 Old 06-10-2012, 01:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

The Klipsch speakers have a fairly tough impedance curve. Having an increase in "brightness" from the Onkyo with high level playback makes sense when you see an impedance dip below 4 ohms in the mid bass of the speakers. Even a top of the line receiver has a compromised amp section.

Hm. Whatever "honkiness" people may hear with these speakers will have much more to do with their design and build than with any "brightness" of the Onkyo.

Sure they dip to just under 4ohms in the 100-200Hz range, but this should not have audible effect at normal listening levels with most modern AVRs, even cheap ones.

Keep in mind that at 100Hz a 30dB variation is considered to be barely audible by humans, so all those dramatic impedance curves salesmen show you to try to sell you standalone amps or magic speaker wire often mean very little in terms of what you can actually hear.
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post #16 of 60 Old 06-10-2012, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by HomeTheater1010 View Post

Listen I'm not trying to sell anything ... I'm just telling watt I heard ...lol same part in a movie 15x ... A little warmer and more sounds and detail at the same DB level ...

I don't doubt you heard something. However, given measurements of the company's other products, chances are better than good that what you really heard is just an intentionally nonflat frequency response. Specifically, a midrange bump. It has nothing to do with tubes, or anything like that. It's a simple EQ circuit, implemented using solid state circuitry.

Now, if it works for you that's fine. I personally prefer to use sonically transparent electronics, and do any signal processing with variable signal processing gear. But ultimately it's whatever works.

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post #17 of 60 Old 06-10-2012, 09:24 AM
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Keep in mind that at 100Hz a 30dB variation is considered to be barely audible by humans.
Is this a typo? did you mean 3dB perhaps?
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post #18 of 60 Old 06-10-2012, 09:31 AM
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I have no idea what a Butler is. In my case, I am now using an Emotiva XPA-3 in lieu of the amp section of my Yamaha 661 receiver to power my front three speakers.

I hear a very real difference. I don't really care why. My system sounds better to me, and absolutely nothing else matters.
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post #19 of 60 Old 06-10-2012, 10:16 AM
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Any one can design an amp to sound different. Then market that difference.

The Carvin TS100 tube amp has a presence knob and is described thus:

Controls the amount of clarity or crispness in the 6kHz range. When this control
is all the way down, the frequency response will essentially be flat. Bringing
this control up will create a "bump" in the upper frequencies. Note: In bridge
mode, track both Channel 1 and 2 presence knobs to the same position.


So most certainly not all amps sound the same. I wonder how close to the Butler the TS100 can be made to sound?

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

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post #20 of 60 Old 06-10-2012, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Amps, digital sources, line level electronics.
As for speakers...simply out of the scope of any discussion of electronic "sound." They are just far more complicated devices, and have much higher variance in performance.
That said, given a design of a type that works for my use (sufficient cone area for suitable dynamics, constrained treble directivity, closed box or pluggable ports), suitably comprehensive measurements (design axis FR, horizontal and vertical polars), and a static visual display (important, because a speaker is also room furniture.), I would not feel a need to listen first, no. But people without that experience definitely should take the effort to correlate their observed preferences to measurements.
Speakers are just tools. There's nothing romantic about anything in the audio chain, except for the music encoded in the source file (or grooves).
It's not an opinion. Yes, there are people who wish to deny reality in all manner of fields. Presumably, someone somewhere still thinks that disease is caused by evil animal spirits, or that the earth is flat, or that President Obama is not an American citizen. They are, like people who ascribe magic powers to electronic circuits, simply wrong.
Because there are plenty of other relevant factors beyond simple sound quality. (And some that affect sound quality, such as signal processing for room correction.) A few of them are appearance, ergonomics, features, expected resale value, brand snobbery, warranty length/conditions, form factor, energy efficiency, and those types of things.

I agree with this gentleman.


For me, build quality, the ability to drive a load with plenty of headroom (if ever needed) and ("AHEM!") good looks are what matters in any amplifier.

I have no real clue if amps "sound" different as I listen to music, not amplifiers. Does the music present itself as music or noise? The job of an amplifier is to play back sound with as little coloration as possible. Nothing added and nothing taken away.

Equipment is much like a woman. If everything else is equal I am going to be attracted to that which I find more, well...attractive to look at. Goodness knows it doesn't hurt if a woman is beautiful. The same holds true for cars, motorcycles, homes, and yes, Audio/Video Equipment. Now then, having said that it must also be noted that like many a beautiful woman, well built and designed audio equipment costs money.

I am not "Financially Hung" but I do alright with what I have and get the best that I can afford. But...I can dream of Krell and the like because a man's reach should extend his grasp, else what's a heaven for. Even audio heaven, my friends.

And for the record, I too like Emotiva. They have the right stuff including great looks and build quality to match.
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post #21 of 60 Old 06-10-2012, 11:25 AM
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One thing I wonder is about McIntosh. Using say, one receiver as a pre pro. Connect a McIntosh 2, 5 or 7 channel amp. Have a pri of speakers, decent ones.mnot cheap. Connect say an Adcom 2, 5 and 7 channel. Same channels both amps. Play music. Then A/B switch the 2 amps. Use any brand not just Adcom, but Outlaw, Marantz, Integra, Emotiva, Rotel, NAD and Classe. So say 5 channel amp from each. I wonder if the McIntosh would kick booty better sound considering how much that brand cost. Like $6k - $13k for the amp with McIntosh.

I'd love to take my M&K LCR750 THX MKII and have one pre pro and all those amps and flip a switch to each amp. I bet the McIntosh wouldn't sound that much better considering the cost, just my opinion. Some might say the McIntosh would sound the best to them over any brand and others might like something else better. It's subjective and possibly what might be different is warm vs bright and narrow vs wider more open soundstage, but sound itself the same or not really noticeable since the same speakers.

Go in this room not knowing where the amps are and then after listening one would have an opinion.

I've heard a NAD T757 receiver vs the Rotel 1560, well the one for $2600. A Pioneer Elite was here and a Rotel 5 channel amp and Integra too. The NAD cost the least yet its soundstage was more open and wider then the others. I was surprised that the others were at least $1000 more but didn't sound as good as the NAD to me.
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post #22 of 60 Old 06-10-2012, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post


I personally prefer to use sonically transparent electronics, and do any signal processing with variable signal processing gear.

 

Makes perfect sense. Do you have a list of receivers proven to have sonically transparent electronics so one is aware of what one is purchasing?

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post #23 of 60 Old 06-10-2012, 02:01 PM
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Is this a typo? did you mean 3dB perhaps?

Nope. I mean 30dB.

At a 100Hz a person with normal hearing (which means someone under 20, who has not attended too many live concerts) needs a 30dB amplitude variation to be able to tell a difference. See the graph here for an idea of how human hearing varies depending on frequency/intensity of sound.

The only realistically possible ways the OP is hearing differences is either because they are not level-matching and listening louder with the new amps, or because a piece of equipment is not designed or working correctly (meaning it's not just amplifying, but "coloring," the sound), or it's simply a placebo effect.
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post #24 of 60 Old 06-10-2012, 02:08 PM
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Makes perfect sense. Do you have a list of receivers proven to have sonically transparent electronics so one is aware of what one is purchasing?

Try the Anthem MRX receivers.
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post #25 of 60 Old 06-10-2012, 02:11 PM
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... Do you have a list of receivers proven to have sonically transparent electronics so one is aware of what one is purchasing?

Nowadays, such list would include pretty much any AVR or amp from a reputable manufacturer, driven within spec.
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post #26 of 60 Old 06-10-2012, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Ryan1 View Post

Keep in mind that at 100Hz a 30dB variation is considered to be barely audible by humans, so all those dramatic impedance curves salesmen show you to try to sell you standalone amps or magic speaker wire often mean very little in terms of what you can actually hear.

That is only at very low volumes where some frequencies are barley audible. This is why the "loudness" feature was invented. To boost frequencies that are barley audible at low volumes.

Now, at normal listening levels, the human hearing should easily hear 1db variations at different frequencies.

At the end of the day, the OP is MUCH better off changing his speakers then to change up electronic. to try to mask or change the sound.

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post #27 of 60 Old 06-10-2012, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Ryan1 View Post


Nowadays, such list would include pretty much any AVR or amp from a reputable manufacturer, driven within spec.

 

This theory stuff is irrelevant when you have two receivers that can be tested. Say the Marantz SR6005 and Pioneer VSX-1121-K. How does one go about testing to prove they sound the same? Surely, you can scope them or whatnot and show what they are outputting? Where are these results everyone is using as their basis... I haven't found them and I'd love to take a look.

 

Taking for granted everyone is reputable and driven within specs sounds rather naive to me. Or a good guess at best. :) Not knowing any better I would have included Butler in the list... I wonder who else doesn't belong in it...

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post #28 of 60 Old 06-10-2012, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

This theory stuff is irrelevant when you have two receivers that can be tested. Say the Marantz SR6005 and Pioneer VSX-1121-K. How does one go about testing to prove they sound the same? Surely, you can scope them or whatnot and show what they are outputting? Where are these results everyone is using as their basis... I haven't found them and I'd love to take a look.

Taking for granted everyone is reputable and driven within specs sounds rather naive to me. Or a good guess at best. smile.gif Not knowing any better I would have included Butler in the list... I wonder who else doesn't belong in it...

O.K., if you insist, let's take "this theory stuff" and ignore it. How about a real world test? Here we go again:

"Most amazing was that in testing between the Pioneer amp and the Futterman array, only 114 of 212 listeners could tell the difference -- thats a 54% correct guess! This is the most extreme example: audiophiles not able to tell the difference between a $200 Pioneer receiver and a $12,000 separate mono-block tube amp array with separate power supplies."

This test includes not only a cheap Pioneer, but also a well designed and executed tube amp.

Do a search for ABX amplifier tests and you'll find others.

But if you decide to discard both the "theory stuff" and the blind test stuff, then all you are left with is religion....
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post #29 of 60 Old 06-10-2012, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Ryan1 View Post

This test includes not only a cheap Pioneer, but also a well designed and executed tube amp.

But if you decide to discard both the "theory stuff" and the blind test stuff, then all you are left with is religion....

 

First, I'm talking about receivers so throw amps out of the discussion... that gets rather old. How many did they test versus how many receivers were available in 2012? Why would I ever base a decision on which receiver to buy based on some ancient amp test? Where does that tell me Butler sounds different?? I doubt anyone would say someone couldn't pick two things apart. Heck, I can walk past two people and I couldn't tell you which was which right afterwards... that doesn't mean they look the same or someone else couldn't.

 

Just cause someone can't tell two amps apart every receiver since has been manufactured to identical specs? What happened to Butler?? What one should be left with is actual tests of the various receivers... those are the (missing) facts. Can't you document what a receiver is outputting? Yes or No?

 

No - No proof they sound the same or different.

Yes - Great let's see the results for various 2012 receivers.

 

And if you want to discuss the topic at hand... it's about testing current receivers to show what they are actually outputting. Whether it can be done or not, if so where has it been done and what are the results. Anything else is off topic and irrelevant.

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post #30 of 60 Old 06-10-2012, 05:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow this Post is all over the place ...lol thx for all the feed back and opinions ... This if what the Forum is all about .... Not putting people down and talk crap .... Let's keep going and the bottom line is everyone likes different sound and setups and love to hear bout everyone's setup .... Great ... But again for the price and the blue tubes ... Just check out Butler amps , really made very nice and Sounds Amazing ... Would love to hear it with some B&W 802 or one Focals .....woooooooweeeeee .lol
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