The "Official" Yamaha AVENTAGE RX-A1020, RX-A2020 and RX-A3020 Thread - Page 59 - AVS Forum
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post #1741 of 1761 Old 07-01-2014, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by jcwhammie View Post
Did apple lossless ever get added with a firmware update? I just read when these units first came out they would compress apple lossless.

Also, I've had my 2020 for about a year and I just now realized my firmware (1.40) isn't up to date. I better get the thumb drive out tomorrow and do some work.
^

I assume you are referring to playing via Upnp pull or push. AFAIK it can play M4A tracks with an AAC payload but not M4A with an ALAC payload. So to get lossless playback of ALAC you need to set your media server to transcode it to L16.
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post #1742 of 1761 Old 07-09-2014, 03:18 AM
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Question

Hi,

At the moment I`m using my RX-A2020 as a 5.1. and have bi-amped front speakers. I`m just about to update my movie screen to a lot bigger one and thinking of updating speaker system a little bit too. Adding FPL and FPR would sound an good idea but can I do it when using bi-amp for front speakers at the same time?

I think bi-amping brought some extra quality to front so I would like to keep it that way. There are still a few channels free but I guess they are for FBL and FBR and cannot be used as a FPL and FPR?

Anyway I could do this?

Thanks!
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post #1743 of 1761 Old 07-09-2014, 11:04 AM
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It doesn't look like you can.... You could run an external amp for your fronts.

I finally got my RX-a2020 as a replacement for my dead RX-a2010. It only took a month, 6 phone calls, and a few emails.
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post #1744 of 1761 Old 07-10-2014, 08:31 AM
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Quick post with a quick question. I may be able to purchase a RX-A820 at a discount price. The unit would do pretty much everything I would like. The only thing that could bother me is input lag with video game. Reading that thread, it seems it's possible to disable any video processing (video direct mode is what it seems to be called). I was wondering if anyone here use this receiver for gaming (PS3, Xbox 360, PS4, etc) and comment on how log the input lag is in video direct mode and how well it works. This is the last piece of information I am looking into before making a decision.

thanks,
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post #1745 of 1761 Old 07-10-2014, 06:04 PM
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Hey Guys,

Have a query for you, and I apologize that I may be in the wrong place to start with, but I did a search and am not sure where to start.

I have a Yamaha A2020. I recently got the new LG 70" monitor. The LG has an ARC HDMI port, and something called Simplink which controls devices via HDMI.

I turned on the feature and now my Yamaha turns On/Off when I turn the TV On and Off -- Which is good.

But the Yamaha powers on and switches to Input source - Audio1. If I set the Yamaha to AV2 (The input from my Directv source) it plays fine. From the LG screen you can configure the SIMPLink to control a Yamaha, but it doesn't give an option for the Yamaha source and keeps switching back to Audio1.


So my question is.... Is this a configuration issue on the Yamaha or the LG?

Thanks in advance!!!

Dave
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post #1746 of 1761 Old 07-11-2014, 04:37 PM
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Hello all,

I'm preparing to install a multi-zone Home Theater system and have some questions regarding the setup. Granted, this question could probably be posted in many of the other Forums - and I considered that! - but since it regards the Yamaha RX-3020 I figured this might be the best place to start. If I am mistaken please tell me!

Here's what I've got:

Yamaha RX-A3020 Aventage A/V Receiver
Paradigm Studio 100's - FL/FR
Paradigm Studio CC-690 - Center
Paradigm Studio ADP-590's - SBL/SBR
Paradigm ADP-370's - SL/SR
Seaton Submersive HP+
Seaton Submersive HP+ [Slave]
Emotiva XPA-2 : The Studio 100's are connected to this amp
Emotiva XPA-5 : The other 5 speakers are connected to this amp
Synology Diskstation DS1513+ [5 x 6TB]
JRiver running on Windows 7 OS

The Synology DS1513+ is connected via Cat6 to my router [ASUS RT-AC68U Wireless-AC1900 Dual-Band Gigabit Router]. The RX-3020 is paired to the network via WiFi. The computer [w/ JRiver] is connected to the network via WiFi. I'm assuming I will connect the Synology to the RX-3020 via USB, as that is really the only connection available (no HDMI, SPDIF, TOSLINK, etc...).

So that is my gear. I'll be purchasing outdoor speakers, and additional speakers for some other Zones. I will start with 4 Zones - the max permitted by the Yamaha 3020. May expand later with additional AVR's....

I have all of my media stored on the Synology [music and BD movies]. I'm looking to be able to deliver that media from the Synology to the various Zones. However, I have some questions....

1. Can the RX-3020 receive simultaneous streams of media from the Synology DS1513+ that can then be transmitted to the different Zones in my home? Or do the sources for the various Zones have to be different?

2. The Synology has multiple USB ports (2 x USB 3.0 and 4 x USB 2.0) - would it benefit me in any way to run one USB 3.0 connection straight to the RX-3020, and the other USB 3.0 to an external DAC, and then from the DAC to the RX-3020? I am asking because I am thinking this may be a work-around to Question #1 (i.e. the second "source" would be the external DAC, and not the Synology).

3. Is what I am trying to do even possible???? LOL. My goal is to be able to select media from one of my devices (smart phone, tablet, laptop, etc.) thru JRiver's Gizmo app from anywhere in my house and send it to various Zones of my choice through the RX-3020. I understand the concept, but I don't really understand the setup.

I've searched and read DOZENS of Threads trying to piece together the information I need. I just cannot seem to find one thread that says "In order to setup Multi-Zones with a NAS and Yamaha RX-3020 you need to do this!"

I'm hoping that this thread might fill the void that seems to be out there.......


If I have not provided enough information please let me know. Can anyone provide some insight on how to set this up?


Thanks in advance....

~Jay
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post #1747 of 1761 Old 07-11-2014, 05:59 PM
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I now realize that I made some rather silly assumptions in my Post above. Please forgive me, as I am currently in Afghanistan and my gear is at home!! But I will be there in about 2 weeks and would like to have a good idea of how to set everything up.

My mistake was in thinking the Synology would be connected to the 3020 via USB. That is incorrect. So now I am left to wonder, will connecting the 3020 to the network via ethernet and the port on the back of the 3020 allow it to play anything off of the DS1513+???

I am just really confused on how to set this up and have it work the way I intend. I'm sure it is very simple, and I'm sorry for being an idiot, but please help!!!

~Jay
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post #1748 of 1761 Old 07-12-2014, 05:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guibs View Post
Quick post with a quick question. I may be able to purchase a RX-A820 at a discount price. The unit would do pretty much everything I would like. The only thing that could bother me is input lag with video game. Reading that thread, it seems it's possible to disable any video processing (video direct mode is what it seems to be called). I was wondering if anyone here use this receiver for gaming (PS3, Xbox 360, PS4, etc) and comment on how log the input lag is in video direct mode and how well it works. This is the last piece of information I am looking into before making a decision.
You're correct about disabling video processing. It's up to your TV how noticeable the lag will be. Your receiver will just pass the signal from gaming console to TV. From experience I've noticed that even when you set your TV to Game or PC mode there will still be some lag, which is tolerable for single play, but not ideal for multiplayer.
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post #1749 of 1761 Old 07-12-2014, 05:32 AM
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Originally Posted by highd3f View Post
You're correct about disabling video processing. It's up to your TV how noticeable the lag will be. Your receiver will just pass the signal from gaming console to TV. From experience I've noticed that even when you set your TV to Game or PC mode there will still be some lag, which is tolerable for single play, but not ideal for multiplayer.
That is what I wanted to know. I bought my tv a year ago by making sure the input lag would be low enough for me to keep enjoying gaming on it. Just wanted to make sure the receiver, when set in video direct mode, would not add any additional input lag.
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post #1750 of 1761 Old 07-12-2014, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by jahriel12 View Post
I now realize that I made some rather silly assumptions in my Post above. Please forgive me, as I am currently in Afghanistan and my gear is at home!! But I will be there in about 2 weeks and would like to have a good idea of how to set everything up.

My mistake was in thinking the Synology would be connected to the 3020 via USB. That is incorrect. So now I am left to wonder, will connecting the 3020 to the network via ethernet and the port on the back of the 3020 allow it to play anything off of the DS1513+???

Just plugging the 3020 into your network will allow it to play media from the Synology, but it only plays audio. If you want to stream video through the receiver you have to do it via a separate media streamer that connects to the 3020 via HDMI.

And to answer another question, I'm pretty sure you can't have separate network streams to different zones simultaneously. But the 3020 has "Party Mode" which allows the same source to play in multiple zones at the same time.
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post #1751 of 1761 Old 07-12-2014, 09:03 AM
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krik99,

Thanks for the response. I guess maybe my question is better posed on the JRiver forum, because I am still wondering how its functionality translates thru the AV Receiver. I've read quite a bit about JRiver and am confident it will allow multiple streams simultaneously, but I jsut don't know how to integrate the AVR into that. I feel like a moron trying to figure this out, bc I am sure it will end up being relatively simple.

I'd rather not have to buy a separate media streamer to play video. My intent with using the NAS and JRiver was to "future-proof" my setup and not have to upgrade hardware to the latest and greatest players. Surely there is a way to do that with my AVR without having to rely solely on a HTPC. For the life of me, though, I cannot seem to figure out how to do it.....
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post #1752 of 1761 Old 07-12-2014, 10:13 AM
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^ It doesn't matter that the NAS can support multiple streams. On the Yamaha you push the Net button to cycle through various network sources until you reach Server, then the GUI on the TV lets you see the music that's on your NAS. When you're playing from the server in the main zone, it won't be available for other zones.

If you don't want the TV on just to play music from the NAS, you can use the Yamaha App on a smartphone. It works well to control the receiver.

And you might think a modern receiver could stream video, but it can't. There's no way around that, you need another device to stream video. Plenty of choice around $100, without the complication of an HTPC.
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post #1753 of 1761 Old 07-14-2014, 10:47 AM
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One major drawback of the Yamaha PEQs is the very few selectable frequencies and Q-values. There is no technical reason why it needs to be this way, as the underlying math is operating on much higher accuracy anyways.

I would have loved to see (even as a purchasable option) that the Yamaha receivers could have much more finetuned parameters, like their Yamaha Pro audio equipment offers.

Has anyone tried to approach Yamaha to ask and/or propose about this? Or is Yamaha so big, that they don't really listen to the consumers?
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post #1754 of 1761 Old 07-14-2014, 11:47 AM
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^ It's worth asking, but in my experience Yamaha are not very receptive to suggested improvements.

Worse than the limited PEQ frequencies on the higher models is that there's no EQ at all on the sub from the RX-A10x0 and down. They obviously decided they would rather leave out an important feature than increase the manufacturing cost and add more DSP processing power.

They do the minimum work every year to introduce new models, and only very, very rarely do a significant redesign. Your typical smartphone has way more processing power than the DSPs in todays AVRs, but to completely change architectures would mean a bigger hardware and software engineering effort than they seem prepared to undertake.
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post #1755 of 1761 Old 07-14-2014, 12:50 PM
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I'm sorry and I mean no disrespect, but I don't completely agree to this. I am doing service on Yamaha receivers, and as such, I am familiar with their design and construction. First of all, the reason 10x0 and below has no PEQ on the sub channels because there is no available DSP capacity left, since these models have only one DSP. This DSP does DTS/DD decoding (which is quite resource-demanding), downmixing, DSP surround mode and PEQ filtering. In the bigger models, there are two DSPs to be able to handle the processing power required to do the signal processing for the extra channels and DSP modes. Having two DSPs is not cheap, but apparently cheaper than purchasing a single larger DSP with sufficient processing power. There are already 4 processors inside the 10*0 including the DSP, 6 in 30*0, so I'm really amazed how much electronics they are able to put into these thing for such small amounts of money. If we were to engineer the same thing in Norway, it would have a cost at least 10 times the price!

Also note, that a DSP processor has quite different architecture than a normal application processors (like the one in your smartphone). The continuous stream of audio in and out, combined with very low latency and the high number of signal processing operations (usually floating point for audio) will swamp a normal application processor. This is why you have special DSP processors for such purposes. Point is: Don't underestimate the processing power of the DSPs in AVRs.

PS! I'd gladly sacrifice the stupid and horribly sounding DSP modes for improved PEQ support!
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post #1756 of 1761 Old 07-14-2014, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by sveinse View Post
I'm sorry and I mean no disrespect, but I don't completely agree to this. I am doing service on Yamaha receivers, and as such, I am familiar with their design and construction. First of all, the reason 10x0 and below has no PEQ on the sub channels because there is no available DSP capacity left, since these models have only one DSP. This DSP does DTS/DD decoding (which is quite resource-demanding), downmixing, DSP surround mode and PEQ filtering. In the bigger models, there are two DSPs to be able to handle the processing power required to do the signal processing for the extra channels and DSP modes. Having two DSPs is not cheap, but apparently cheaper than purchasing a single larger DSP with sufficient processing power. There are already 4 processors inside the 10*0 including the DSP, 6 in 30*0, so I'm really amazed how much electronics they are able to put into these thing for such small amounts of money. If we were to engineer the same thing in Norway, it would have a cost at least 10 times the price!

Also note, that a DSP processor has quite different architecture than a normal application processors (like the one in your smartphone). The continuous stream of audio in and out, combined with very low latency and the high number of signal processing operations (usually floating point for audio) will swamp a normal application processor. This is why you have special DSP processors for such purposes. Point is: Don't underestimate the processing power of the DSPs in AVRs.

PS! I'd gladly sacrifice the stupid and horribly sounding DSP modes for improved PEQ support!
You covered most of the bases, but blackfin DSPs are not that expensive... We're talking a <$100 IC here.

While I haven't spent that much time poking around, ususaly there's only 1 or 2 DSPs, the rest are FPGAs.
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post #1757 of 1761 Old 07-14-2014, 02:03 PM
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Yup, you're right. On the 3020, there are 2 DSPs (sound), 2 FPGA (for image processing) and 2 ordinary CPUs (one for main unit control and one for network). All with their own memory banks and flash chips!

Blackfin DSP are more in the $20 range. BTW AFAICS the blackfin is an integer DSP, not float. The TI C674x (which Yamaha uses) is a floating-point DSP, as requred by Dolby/DTS. Its performance is comparable to the Blackfin.
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post #1758 of 1761 Old 07-14-2014, 05:35 PM
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Also note, that a DSP processor has quite different architecture than a normal application processors (like the one in your smartphone). The continuous stream of audio in and out, combined with very low latency and the high number of signal processing operations (usually floating point for audio) will swamp a normal application processor. This is why you have special DSP processors for such purposes. Point is: Don't underestimate the processing power of the DSPs in AVRs.

There was a time when the DSP outperformed a conventional CPU for signal processing, but that was a long time ago. Raw MIPS or MFLOPs for the chips that Yamaha (and the other AVR manufacturers) use is many times less than the kind of ARM core you find in a phone (check the datasheets, it's more than you think).

Those audio DSPs are pretty cheap, but if you want a lot more processing power (which looks like it may be needed for new audio formats like Dolby Atmos, or to avoid compromises on sampling rate, etc.) a better way could be a combination of an FPGA to handle the I/O and a multi-core ARM for the processing. But Yamaha and the others won't make a dramatic architecture change unless the current one is costing them sales.

We used to build hardware based on TI DSPs for image processing (which needs more power than audio processing), and we had to abandon them in favour of FPGAs and ordinary CPUs (Intel, not ARM, so far) years ago.

But the original point I was trying to make is that Yamaha don't like making changes. They'll cling to the current outdated architecture for as long as they can, and they'll keep using the same old PEQ as long as they can get away with it.

Last edited by kriktsemaj99; 07-14-2014 at 06:41 PM.
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post #1759 of 1761 Old 07-15-2014, 02:27 PM
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Granted, but I'd also like to point out that video and audio processing differs in their requirement. Video processing is usually a simple process with integers repeated many many million times per second, while audio is the opposite: Rather little data, but highly intricate process with many different steps and paths. And is usually with float. E.g. Dolby Digital is centered around floats. So video processing is easier to adopt to FPGA and ordinary CPUs, while audio processing is still leaning towards DSPs due to its float performance. This is the reason why Yamaha use FPGAs for video processing, and DSPs for audio. (OT, so I'm stopping now.)

There is nothing wrong with the PEQs on Yamaha, per se. But its lacking options for configuring more fine-grained options. It would be the same algorithm, just with other values. So it's a user interface thing, not a DSP issue. Ironically, Yamaha Pro audio PEQs are great.

I have been playing around with the idea to cut the signals inbetween the audio stream from the DSP into the DACs and insert my own DSP. This would give me complete control and I can add filters to my hearts content with as much resolution as I want. However as I do not want to start a major PCB project, I'm looking for a small (cheap) DSP eval kit that is capable of handling 2 I2S stream with low enough latency. These kits are not as cheap nor as available as RasberryPi unfortunately.
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post #1760 of 1761 Old 07-15-2014, 07:12 PM
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^ What about a MiniDSP? Not as much fun as hacking the hardware but a pretty cheap solution. For sub EQ the analog models are good, and now they have the nanoAVR that sits between an HDMI source and the receiver's HDMI input and gives you 8 channels of EQ (although putting the EQ before the AVR has its downsides).
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post #1761 of 1761 Old 07-16-2014, 05:27 AM
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Quote:
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^ What about a MiniDSP? Not as much fun as hacking the hardware but a pretty cheap solution. For sub EQ the analog models are good, and now they have the nanoAVR that sits between an HDMI source and the receiver's HDMI input and gives you 8 channels of EQ (although putting the EQ before the AVR has its downsides).
Yes, have been drooling on it. However not all my media sources are HDMI-based, so I cannot make full use of it. But I could probably hack the MiniDSP into the DSP-DAC chain of my Yamaha...
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