Advice please - what is a worthy replacement of my Denon AVR3801 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 23 Old 06-14-2012, 07:44 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
thefish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 120
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 18
It's hard to believe that 10 years have gone by so fast. My Denon AVR-3801 is still going strong and sounds great on my 5.1 setup - Boston Micro90/90t fronts, center, and powered sub, and rear VRS Micros. I bought this receiver 10 years ago with the dreams of a man cave/movie room that was later turned into a playroom for kids. So the Denon and the speakers were moved to the family room to watch regular TV, movies, and occasionally crank up some Christmas music. It's a shame that until recently I had forgotten that the Denon could drive 2 more speakers and do multizone. Some dreams never get realized. But I digress...

Fast forward, 10 years and I have a new Panasonic P65ST50, with a bluray player (still undecided on brand, looking for best at streaming MKV files), Xbox 360, digital cable box, replayTV (SD recording I know), screencast (for laptop display), and Canon HD camcorder. All these new pieces of equipment work best via HDMI (except Replay but that's my analog legacy) with optical audio. The problem is my Denon has only 3 optical audio inputs. So I either need to by a swtich or get a new receiver. Since the switches I have seen are manual, this is not desirable. I suppose I could give up digital audio on one or two inputs if the AVR3801 is not worthy of replacement by the alternatives below.

I recently went out trolling for cheap replacements <$250. My reasons of looking at spending less than $250 is that I regret spending so much on the Denon years ago for features I never used, I just dropped over $2k on the TV, and I am hoping sound quality in receivers has improved in the last 10 years that I can continue to enjoy the same sound experience on cheaper equipment. I realize the last assumption may be foolish - I only ask that you be gentle in your reprisals.

So after searching the web and local stores, I have two options so far that I would appreciate your thoughts on.

1. Denon AVR-1612 - purchased for $189 plus tax (store demo). Not a hot deal as you can buy new ones online for $225 and up, but not bad.
2. Yamaha RX-V571 - purchased for $199 plus tax (store demo). Seems to be a better deal as those are still going for $340 or more new.

Both appear to have enough inputs considering the 2 extra HDMI inputs on the TV. The Yahama has more inputs, both HDMI, optical audio and analog, which gives me hope for flexibility/future components. One of the HDMI inputs is on the front which is convenient for the camcorder and borrowed devices. The Yahama is also 7.1 where the 1612 is only 5.1, and the Yahama can output all signals via HDMI. These extra features made me feel a little better that my $200 was well spent and this may be worthy of replacing my AVR3801. But I know from experience that a good price and fancy features may not mean quality sound.

From searching the forums, it seems folks generally think the Denon 1612 is a good value, but lacking in features of the step-up models. The negatives on the Yahama focus on inferior bass output and that it may not have discrete channel amp (not sure though as I can't find that in the specs in the manual).

If I decide to keep one of the new receivers I would likely store the Denon AVR3801 for possible future use to drive house speakers (prewired, not installed) or some other use. Doubt I could get much selling it.

Of course I am open to other suggestions as I can always return these and wait for other prior year models to go on closeout. I don't want to be disappointed by what I use as a replacement - I just want to continue a nice listening experience for what is mostly TV, bluray movies, and music on occasion. Thanks in advance for any advice and input.
thefish is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 23 Old 06-14-2012, 08:02 PM
Senior Member
 
dandan123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 216
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I recently replaced my 3802 (still going strong in the basement) with a 2112CI mainly for HDMI.

They sound similar, with the 2112CI with audyssey sounding a little better on surround sources (blu ray/dvd).

The 3802 replaced a HK AVR20 II which is still my preferred two channel setup.
dandan123 is offline  
post #3 of 23 Old 06-14-2012, 08:46 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
thefish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 120
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 18
I noticed the 2112CI when doing research on the Denon website. Good to know it sounds comparable to the 3802 or better in surround modes. It look very nice, but over my budget at about $440 right now. Maybe it will drop more...
thefish is offline  
post #4 of 23 Old 06-15-2012, 02:49 AM
585-645-1006
 
jdsmoothie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 43,576
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 581 Post(s)
Liked: 1365
Other 3801/2 owners have posted in previous year's model threads having purchased an Audyssey MultEQ model (as is the case with the 1612) with a noticeable sound improvement due to the upgrade to an Audyssey AVR. The benefit of the 2112CI is it offers Zone 2 pre-outs if you ever wanted to use the 3801 to power Zone 2 speakers and also wanted a 7.1 setup in the main zone, otherwise, the 2112CI could also power 5.1/Zone 2. The 1612 has Surr Back/Front Height pre-outs to expand to 7.1 in the main zone using the 3801 as well.

---------------------------------
"JD" – jd@avscience.com ; shop.avscience.com ; 585-645-1006, AVScience - Authorized dealer for AV Gear 
Mon - Fri: 8am – 8pm EST (Sat/Sun too, will return call if I don't pick up)
Call for pricing on Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, Onkyo, Klipsch, Def Tech, Oppo, Parasound 
** Think the AVR is defective?  Reset the microprocessor 4-5 times. 
jdsmoothie is offline  
post #5 of 23 Old 06-15-2012, 09:19 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
thefish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 120
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 18
I guess there is not much love for Yahama around here. Oh well, maybe it is just bells and whistles without any real guts to it.

So if the Audyssey makes the big difference, what about the 1712? It has the XT version. Would that be a cheaper alterntive than the 2112CI but better than the 1612.
thefish is offline  
post #6 of 23 Old 06-15-2012, 09:29 AM
585-645-1006
 
jdsmoothie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 43,576
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 581 Post(s)
Liked: 1365
^^
Yes, the 1712 is supposed to cater to those wanting better audio fidelity but don't want the networking capability.

---------------------------------
"JD" – jd@avscience.com ; shop.avscience.com ; 585-645-1006, AVScience - Authorized dealer for AV Gear 
Mon - Fri: 8am – 8pm EST (Sat/Sun too, will return call if I don't pick up)
Call for pricing on Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, Onkyo, Klipsch, Def Tech, Oppo, Parasound 
** Think the AVR is defective?  Reset the microprocessor 4-5 times. 
jdsmoothie is offline  
post #7 of 23 Old 06-15-2012, 09:39 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
thefish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 120
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 18
did some price research on the models.
1. 1712 is going for $399 new. could get a refurb for about $250 shipped.
2. 2112ci is going for $480 new. refurbs running in the mid-$300's.

Just saw today that amazon has the 3312ci for $550. That may be overkill for my setup, but what a feature set on that one. and for only $70 more than the 2112ci brand new.

What should I do? Waiting for any of these to get near my pricepoint may be unrealistic. Is the 3312ci worth it?

Now I have dreams of running the second HDMI out to my patio with ceiling speakers and running in it all from my andriod tablet. Maybe this is my new man cave dream! I think I need help...
thefish is offline  
post #8 of 23 Old 06-15-2012, 10:10 AM
Senior Member
 
dandan123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 216
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I bought my 2112 from McMall (refurbished) for $350 ( I wouldn't recommend this as I later found out that it only carries a 3 month warranty). I used a chase card which came with a cash back offer of $300 and doubling of warranty. So in the end with some additional points I got from Chase I ended up paying around $35 with a 6 month warranty on the receiver which I think isn't bad.
dandan123 is offline  
post #9 of 23 Old 06-15-2012, 11:57 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
thefish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 120
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 18
thanks for the warning on the refurb warranty. I was looking at macmall also. I think my Amex doubles the warranty (up to 1 year) also, but the $300 cash back deal I did not find. Was that a first purchase with Chase promo with a new card, or some special promo with macmall?
thefish is offline  
post #10 of 23 Old 06-15-2012, 12:16 PM
585-645-1006
 
jdsmoothie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 43,576
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 581 Post(s)
Liked: 1365
Quote:
Originally Posted by thefish View Post

did some price research on the models.
1. 1712 is going for $399 new. could get a refurb for about $250 shipped.
2. 2112ci is going for $480 new. refurbs running in the mid-$300's.
Just saw today that amazon has the 3312ci for $550. That may be overkill for my setup, but what a feature set on that one. and for only $70 more than the 2112ci brand new.
What should I do? Waiting for any of these to get near my pricepoint may be unrealistic. Is the 3312ci worth it?
Now I have dreams of running the second HDMI out to my patio with ceiling speakers and running in it all from my andriod tablet. Maybe this is my new man cave dream! I think I need help...

If this is your dream, you'll have to purchase a "networking" model in order to control it via your android tablet. To send video and audio to the patio over HDMI using the 3312CI would require disabling the speakers in the main room.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thefish View Post

thanks for the warning on the refurb warranty. I was looking at macmall also. I think my Amex doubles the warranty (up to 1 year) also, but the $300 cash back deal I did not find. Was that a first purchase with Chase promo with a new card, or some special promo with macmall?

If you're considering refurb, I'd suggest Accessories4Less which has been around over 10 years and spoken of highly in these forums. The warranty on Denon refurbs from them is 1 year which doubles to 2 years with Amex purchase.

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/DENAVR2112CI/DENON-AVR-2112CI-7.1-Integrated-Network-A/V-Surround-Receiver/1.html

---------------------------------
"JD" – jd@avscience.com ; shop.avscience.com ; 585-645-1006, AVScience - Authorized dealer for AV Gear 
Mon - Fri: 8am – 8pm EST (Sat/Sun too, will return call if I don't pick up)
Call for pricing on Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, Onkyo, Klipsch, Def Tech, Oppo, Parasound 
** Think the AVR is defective?  Reset the microprocessor 4-5 times. 
jdsmoothie is offline  
post #11 of 23 Old 06-15-2012, 12:22 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
thefish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 120
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

If this is your dream, you'll have to purchase a "networking" model in order to control it via your android tablet. To send video and audio to the patio over HDMI using the 3312CI would require disabling the speakers in the main room.
If you're considering refurb, I'd suggest Accessories4Less which has been around over 10 years and spoken of highly in these forums. The warranty on Denon refurbs from them is 1 year which doubles to 2 years with Amex purchase.
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/DENAVR2112CI/DENON-AVR-2112CI-7.1-Integrated-Network-A/V-Surround-Receiver/1.html

Thanks for the refurb tip. On the first point, I don't get why the main room speakers need to be disabled. I thought multi-zone could output same or different source to speakers in another room at the same time as driving the main room (sorry this is new to me). Are you saying that the HDMI2 output does not coordinate with other zones? If not, then what is the use for a second HDMI output if you don't want to listen to the TV speakers.
thefish is offline  
post #12 of 23 Old 06-15-2012, 12:29 PM
585-645-1006
 
jdsmoothie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 43,576
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 581 Post(s)
Liked: 1365
The dual HDMI outputs on the 3312CI act simply as a splitter, ideally suited for someone that has both a plasma/LCD and PJ in the main zone where they don't need audio to the PJ. The only Zone 2 video output on the 3312CI is the RCA composite video output. The new 3313CI is the first model to provide a dedicated HDMI Zone 2 output which would do what you want. To send HDMI audio/video to the patio using the 3312CI would require setting the HDMI Audio Out setting to "TV" vice "AMP" which then cuts off the signal to the surround speakers, although the video will still play over the HDMI output to the main zone.

---------------------------------
"JD" – jd@avscience.com ; shop.avscience.com ; 585-645-1006, AVScience - Authorized dealer for AV Gear 
Mon - Fri: 8am – 8pm EST (Sat/Sun too, will return call if I don't pick up)
Call for pricing on Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, Onkyo, Klipsch, Def Tech, Oppo, Parasound 
** Think the AVR is defective?  Reset the microprocessor 4-5 times. 
jdsmoothie is offline  
post #13 of 23 Old 06-15-2012, 01:20 PM
Senior Member
 
dandan123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 216
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
First purchase promo. I applied for the card just to buy this receiver.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thefish View Post

thanks for the warning on the refurb warranty. I was looking at macmall also. I think my Amex doubles the warranty (up to 1 year) also, but the $300 cash back deal I did not find. Was that a first purchase with Chase promo with a new card, or some special promo with macmall?
dandan123 is offline  
post #14 of 23 Old 06-15-2012, 01:28 PM
585-645-1006
 
jdsmoothie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 43,576
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 581 Post(s)
Liked: 1365
If you're going to save $300, I'd jump on the 3312CI deal before it ends.

---------------------------------
"JD" – jd@avscience.com ; shop.avscience.com ; 585-645-1006, AVScience - Authorized dealer for AV Gear 
Mon - Fri: 8am – 8pm EST (Sat/Sun too, will return call if I don't pick up)
Call for pricing on Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, Onkyo, Klipsch, Def Tech, Oppo, Parasound 
** Think the AVR is defective?  Reset the microprocessor 4-5 times. 
jdsmoothie is offline  
post #15 of 23 Old 06-15-2012, 01:34 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
thefish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 120
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 18
thanks for your advice by the way. Since the 3312ci didn't work for my dream patio setup, I started to have my doubts if it was worth it. I know it is a good price, but am I overspending just to get a good deal. Or should I just shoot for a 1712 or 2112...
thefish is offline  
post #16 of 23 Old 06-15-2012, 01:43 PM
585-645-1006
 
jdsmoothie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 43,576
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 581 Post(s)
Liked: 1365
You need to decide if you don't want networking (1712) or do want networking (2112CI).

---------------------------------
"JD" – jd@avscience.com ; shop.avscience.com ; 585-645-1006, AVScience - Authorized dealer for AV Gear 
Mon - Fri: 8am – 8pm EST (Sat/Sun too, will return call if I don't pick up)
Call for pricing on Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, Onkyo, Klipsch, Def Tech, Oppo, Parasound 
** Think the AVR is defective?  Reset the microprocessor 4-5 times. 
jdsmoothie is offline  
post #17 of 23 Old 06-15-2012, 02:11 PM
Member
 
bozekitty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 28
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Yeah, I feel your pain, Fish.

I just bought the Denon AVR-1612 a week and a half ago because my setup is only a 15x15 room with 2.1 and no room for proper surround.

And then today I went ahead and jumped on that 3312ci deal at Amazon. I'll never use the zones and most of the amps will just collect dust. The thought of all the empty plugs for a zillion things on the back panel makes it seem especially pointless.

My rationale is that returns on Amazon Prime are so easy I can A/B them with some new bookshelf speakers and return whichever one makes less sense. Not a strong rationale, I realize.
bozekitty is offline  
post #18 of 23 Old 06-15-2012, 02:29 PM
Member
 
bozekitty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 28
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
^^

Update, I saw this and had to cancel the 3312ci order out of shame:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1415886/denon-avr-3313ci-new-build-out-ideas-and-suggestions-welcome#post_22136336

I just can't let that much AVR go to waste.

Le sigh....
bozekitty is offline  
post #19 of 23 Old 06-15-2012, 02:44 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
thefish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 120
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by bozekitty View Post

^^
Update, I saw this and had to cancel the 3312ci order out of shame:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1415886/denon-avr-3313ci-new-build-out-ideas-and-suggestions-welcome#post_22136336
I just can't let that much AVR go to waste.
Le sigh....
But it is such a good price! Why pay only $100 or $200 less when what you get is worth more than that. Maybe it will have a higher resale value later. Who knows. C'mon misery loves company.
thefish is offline  
post #20 of 23 Old 06-15-2012, 02:59 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
thefish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 120
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

You need to decide if you don't want networking (1712) or do want networking (2112CI).

On the fence on this. I don't have an ios device yet so airplay would be a future use. dnla is nice but xbox, bluray and tv do that also. firmware updates are a good thing. is there a big advantage I am missing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

If you're going to save $300, I'd jump on the 3312CI deal before it ends.

yeah, looking at spending $480 new (or $380 refurb) on a 2112, I can't help but think the extra $70 (or $170 compared to refurb) gives more options for the future. if it lasts another 10 years like my last one, then it's a no brainer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

The dual HDMI outputs on the 3312CI act simply as a splitter, ideally suited for someone that has both a plasma/LCD and PJ in the main zone where they don't need audio to the PJ. The only Zone 2 video output on the 3312CI is the RCA composite video output. The new 3313CI is the first model to provide a dedicated HDMI Zone 2 output which would do what you want. To send HDMI audio/video to the patio using the 3312CI would require setting the HDMI Audio Out setting to "TV" vice "AMP" which then cuts off the signal to the surround speakers, although the video will still play over the HDMI output to the main zone.

I also read your post helping someone else out on their setup (boy you are everywhere):

The speaker post/pre-out Zone 2/3 audio can be associated with the component video monitor output which can be set to the main zone or Zone 2. If you also connect an analog audio cable from the Zone 2 HDMI video source, then you should be able to use either the speaker posts or Zone 2 pre-outs, although there may be some delay noticed (again, no practical experience yet). HDMI sources cannot pass audio to other than the main zone, unless using the dedicated Zone 2 HDMI monitor out jack. AFAIK, the Denon 3313CI and the Marantz 7007 are the first AVRs to offer a Zone 2 HDMI.

The patio setup I was thinking about was the same thing in his drawing - video to TV and sound to two cieling speakers. If I understand you correctly, the 3312 as a splitter can only show the same program in the main room and the patio, while powering the main room speakers and/or the patio speakers. Getting the 3313 (in a year when it's cheaper), would allow a different source to the patio TV for video and sound (on TV speakers), unless you hook that separate source up to 3313 via analog white/red for audio to drive zone 2. HDMI provides video to patio and analog provides sound to speaker. Just hope their is no lag. Did I get that right?
thefish is offline  
post #21 of 23 Old 06-15-2012, 03:29 PM
585-645-1006
 
jdsmoothie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 43,576
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 581 Post(s)
Liked: 1365
Yup .. pretty much. smile.gif

---------------------------------
"JD" – jd@avscience.com ; shop.avscience.com ; 585-645-1006, AVScience - Authorized dealer for AV Gear 
Mon - Fri: 8am – 8pm EST (Sat/Sun too, will return call if I don't pick up)
Call for pricing on Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, Onkyo, Klipsch, Def Tech, Oppo, Parasound 
** Think the AVR is defective?  Reset the microprocessor 4-5 times. 
jdsmoothie is offline  
post #22 of 23 Old 06-16-2012, 08:42 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
thefish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 120
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Thanks for your help. I ended up ordering the 3312ci on sale.

I was wondering if the receiver will make the HDCP handshake via HDMI with my STB even when the receiver is in standby. I posted a problem in the HDTV forum that I am having with my STB giving me a handshake error on SD DVR when STB also connected to TV via HDMI and TV is off. Link
but maybe it is a receiver question...
thefish is offline  
post #23 of 23 Old 04-08-2013, 10:28 AM
Senior Member
 
quad4.0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: here
Posts: 241
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 27 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Just bought one on the bay for $71.00 It is flawless! I use an Oppo 93 with the NE mod output stage. So hdmi is bypassed. audesey and other featres are a waste to me anyway. I much rather have simple-straight no dsp that is worthless. I refer back to the article regarding too much crap in avr's. No one uses those stupid modes. Even DD is a bore now with the lossless formats. The perfect receiver would be like some I see out now, no radio (who? listens anymore?) straight multi-channel amp, with both analog and hdmi for audio. ( audio only with BD)
Phono in/tape in/out/cd in, and MC pre outs. DSP is worthless with lossless formats anyway. But, I do like the MC stereo mode. Let the device do all the decoding. And let the amp do what it should. That's why I love the Oppo so much. It does what it should. Leave the receiver simple. Choice!!
quad4.0 is offline  
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Tags
Denon Avr 3801 Integrated A V Surround Receiver

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off