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post #361 of 1118 Old 08-21-2012, 09:54 AM
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I could tell. Playing the same scenes and commercial over and over again. Switching out takes 4 minutes. Sometimes 3 and a half. The DVR or Blu ray player are on pause so it is a matter of seconds playing each one. I hate to admit it but there is a difference. There is a justifiable reason they make a 5009 or a 5010.

Oh an there was no alcohol involved in the comparison. smile.gif

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post #362 of 1118 Old 08-21-2012, 09:58 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

If you simply said that some of your analysis was your opinion rather than stating your findings as absolute fact, most of the issues being raised would defused.
Nothing wrong with subjective opinions, but without corresponding measurements they will typically be challenged.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I agree 100%.
Bill

At the risk of seeming pedantic, aren't all reviews simply opinions? Some people prefer a brighter sound, for example, so their review would say the brighter sounding amp is better while those who greatly dislike a brighter sound would say it is worse. A reviewer may say "this amp is brighter sounding, and I like that" and then their summary would be "it sounds better"

Just saying, imo all reviews involving the way things sound are subjective.
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post #363 of 1118 Old 08-21-2012, 09:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

I could tell. Playing the same scenes and commercial over and over again. Switching out takes 4 minutes. Sometimes 3 and a half. The DVR or Blu ray player are on pause so it is a matter of seconds playing each one. I hate to admit it but there is a difference. There is a justifiable reason they make a 5009 or a 5010.
Oh an there was no alcohol involved in the comparison. smile.gif

Oh, then you just invalidated your test. frown.gif
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post #364 of 1118 Old 08-21-2012, 10:05 AM
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Having seen this brought up so many times in so many threads - and not picking on Bill Mac - just what is the acceptable method of performing blind tests? Does it require specific brand and model switching devices known not to inject variations? Does it require scientific testing of matching sound levels? Are computer generated charts and numerical data records required? Exactly how does one perform this test? How many members here own the needed equipment to perform a true blind test?

So often I see this blind test question thrown into a thread yet I never see where the person doing the questioning has posted their own results on any testing they have performed. It is so easy to question results even with data. For example, when I upgraded from an old $200 JVC 4 channel "surround" receiver to a $4200 Pioneer Elite receiver I noticed massive dramatic changes in the sound. Saying this was an improvement would any of you believe me without blind testing? Now comparing the Onkyo 3010 to the 5010, there should be very minor differences in sound compared to my example yet some have noticed differences that they appreciate. One can question the idea that they hear this but it is basically impossible to prove it to everyone's satisfaction. This is a hobby and we seek enjoyment and satisfaction from our purchases. If there were only absolutes, everyone with the financial ability to purchase in a specific $ range would own the exact same equipment because it was proven to sound the best. Never going to happen!!
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post #365 of 1118 Old 08-21-2012, 10:14 AM
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Oh and cybrsage is absolutely correct!! No way joerod's results are valid with out alcohol! I have many years of listening experience based upon mind altering chemicals and could clearly and easily hear differences. wink.gif
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post #366 of 1118 Old 08-21-2012, 10:23 AM
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So would it be safe to say that a 5010 would be a 'substantial' upgrade from an 805? I'm trying to decide between a pio sc-68 and the 5010.. the only problem is I've been bitten by onkyo with the 805 so I'm a little gun-shy with their goods now. I wonder if the audible difference between the 3xxxx & 5xxxx is an improvement in the reduction of jitter? supposedly with the 5010 they "virtually eliminated" it (although who knows what that means).
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post #367 of 1118 Old 08-21-2012, 10:50 AM
 
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OK, getting back to the topic:

I just did a test and my TV can control the AVR Via HDMI-CEC when it is plugged into the primary HDMI Out and cannot when plugged into the mirrored HDMI Out. I then installed my HDMI Splitter in the path of the primary HDMI Out and both my TV and Projector can control the AVR via HDMI-CEC. I am a little miffed they would not allow both to control the AVR, but I understand it is so that turning off the secondary does not turn off the AVR while the primary is still in use. No big deal, I already own the splitter (Monoprice rocks!).

I also turned off the Audyssey Dynamic Volume and the "starts out soft" problem went away. Why does it do this, the Denon 3808 did not.

I updated my review on the other page to include this information.
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post #368 of 1118 Old 08-21-2012, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

Oh, then you just invalidated your test. frown.gif

Next time I will do some Vodka Tonics first. biggrin.gif

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post #369 of 1118 Old 08-21-2012, 11:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isamudaison View Post

So would it be safe to say that a 5010 would be a 'substantial' upgrade from an 805? I'm trying to decide between a pio sc-68 and the 5010.. the only problem is I've been bitten by onkyo with the 805 so I'm a little gun-shy with their goods now. I wonder if the audible difference between the 3xxxx & 5xxxx is an improvement in the reduction of jitter? supposedly with the 5010 they "virtually eliminated" it (although who knows what that means).

Going from Audyssey Multi EQ XT to XT32 is a large leap, and all the reviews I have read on it say it is very noticable. CNET says the 805 downconverts 1080i to 720p when it sends it out over HDMI...so that would be a huge change as well. The 5010 also has 9 amps vs 7 in the 805.
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post #370 of 1118 Old 08-21-2012, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterK View Post

Oh and cybrsage is absolutely correct!! No way joerod's results are valid with out alcohol! I have many years of listening experience based upon mind altering chemicals and could clearly and easily hear differences. wink.gif

Love it. smile.gif

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post #371 of 1118 Old 08-21-2012, 12:09 PM
 
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When I setup Audyssey, I used normal instead of digital crossovers. Should I have selected digital?

Also, I did not see a Large and Small setting for the speakers.
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post #372 of 1118 Old 08-21-2012, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

Fine. 6 people's opinion (all the same) are subjective. I guess it's also possible the 5010 is just a 3010 in disguise. It's a conspiracy so Onkyo can charge 7 to 8 hundred more. biggrin.gif

I tried to make an honest, simple suggestion and this is how you respond? That says a lot.

Yes, six people performing a sighted test w/o any form of proper ABX is 100% subjective, particularly with 4 or more minutes between listening sessions. You can rant all you like, but it doesn't change reality.
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post #373 of 1118 Old 08-21-2012, 12:11 PM
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ok, I will do a more in depth write up later, but I just wanted to say I moved from a 3009 to 5010 last night. The user interface is a little different in that you can't go directly to the setup menu- need to go to the home screen, then choose setup.

either way, there was a significant improvement in sound from the 3009 to 5010. Before I get any flames, I know there shouldn't be that much of a sound difference between the two. If I am playing devils advocate, I would say that I must have improperly calibrated the 3009, while I properly calibrated the 5010? I did calibrate 5 listening positions on the 5010 vs 3 listening positions on the 3009.

On the 3009, I had to bump up the subs 3db for it to give me the overbloated bass that I like. with the 5010, I didn't have to do it. It just seems that the calibration or eq on the 5010 is more aggressive? I am not sure. Honestly, it could be just a huge placebo effect since I know the 5010 costs $1k more and I am trying to justify the purchase????

Again, I will give more in depth listen as it breaks in.
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post #374 of 1118 Old 08-21-2012, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

At the risk of seeming pedantic, aren't all reviews simply opinions? Some people prefer a brighter sound, for example, so their review would say the brighter sounding amp is better while those who greatly dislike a brighter sound would say it is worse. A reviewer may say "this amp is brighter sounding, and I like that" and then their summary would be "it sounds better"
Just saying, imo all reviews involving the way things sound are subjective.

No, measurements are not subjective. That's why people utilize them as objective confirmation of subjective opinions.

I have no issue with subjective reviews, but when opinions gleaned from those somehow morph into absolute facts, there is a problem. Joe could be correct, but without better analysis of the AVR's output, we will never know for sure.
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post #375 of 1118 Old 08-21-2012, 12:40 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

No, measurements are not subjective. That's why people utilize them as objective confirmation of subjective opinions.
I have no issue with subjective reviews, but when opinions gleaned from those somehow morph into absolute facts, there is a problem. Joe could be correct, but without better analysis of the AVR's output, we will never know for sure.

True, you can show charts and graphs, but how do these charts and graphs sound to the individual? The ability to hear certain sounds is based on each individual.
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post #376 of 1118 Old 08-21-2012, 12:41 PM
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I'm interested in these receivers and popped in to see what posters thought of their purchase?
1 Did you purchase sight unseen?
2 Did you audition at an audio shop?
3 Were you able to try the receiver in your home before buying?
4 What sealed the deal for you, features, robustness, reputation, bang for the buck, or something else?
5 Do you consider yourself a spec jockey, only buying because of the specifications compared to other receivers?
6 Any buyer's remorse?
7 Is this your first Onkyo or have you owned other Onkyo receivers?

I would love to hear from owners and their criteria they used to make their purchase.

I've found AVS a great resource and really appreciate your opinions.

Many thanks for indulging

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post #377 of 1118 Old 08-21-2012, 12:48 PM
 
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1. Pseudo site unseen...I read reviews, saw pictures, etc.
2. No
3. No
4. Features
5. No
6. No
7. First Onkyo
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post #378 of 1118 Old 08-21-2012, 12:51 PM
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Measurements or not. When something looks, sounds or tastes good, it just does plain and simple. Don't tell me your last acquisition was strictly made on measurements.

Oh! and very important if you have not own or currently own any of these receivers please keep it to yourself...Because guess what we actually have or do!

Until then...

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post #379 of 1118 Old 08-21-2012, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Major AV Jones View Post

I'm interested in these receivers and popped in to see what posters thought of their purchase?
1 Did you purchase sight unseen?
Sight unseen. I actually sample from 809 through 5009. Decided to keep 5009 after price break

2 Did you audition at an audio shop?
N/A

3 Were you able to try the receiver in your home before buying?
Bought online

4 What sealed the deal for you, features, robustness, reputation, bang for the buck, or something else?
Reviews, features

5 Do you consider yourself a spec jockey, only buying because of the specifications compared to other receivers?
No

6 Any buyer's remorse?
Not at all.

7 Is this your first Onkyo or have you owned other Onkyo receivers?
First Onkyo, first time I experienced Audyssey. That sealed the deal for me

I would love to hear from owners and their criteria they used to make their purchase.
After carefully reading reviews and recommendations I decided to take the plunge making sure the place I bought from had an excellent return policy (more importantly no restocking fee). I didn't compromise, kept on trying receivers until I was satisfied (I think I am, at least until next year).

I've found AVS a great resource and really appreciate your opinions.
Many thanks for indulging
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post #380 of 1118 Old 08-21-2012, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

True, you can show charts and graphs, but how do these charts and graphs sound to the individual? The ability to hear certain sounds is based on each individual.

In the vast majority of cases, a graph can be extrapolated to determine if the indicated variances are audible. Personal preference is a different discussion and is entirely subjective.

Your point about individual preference is exactly what I'm discussing when suggesting Joe state his findings as opinion rather than fact. It isn't a put down as he seems to feel, simply the reality of what his test methodology can present.
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post #381 of 1118 Old 08-21-2012, 01:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

In the vast majority of cases, a graph can be extrapolated to determine if the indicated variances are audible. Personal preference is a different discussion and is entirely subjective.
Your point about individual preference is exactly what I'm discussing when suggesting Joe state his findings as opinion rather than fact. It isn't a put down as he seems to feel, simply the reality of what his test methodology can present.

It is a fact that Joe says he noticed a difference.
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post #382 of 1118 Old 08-21-2012, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJai View Post

Measurements or not. When something looks, sounds or tastes good, it just does plain and simple. Don't tell me your last acquisition was strictly made on measurements.
Oh! and very important if you have not own or currently own any of these receivers please keep it to yourself...Because guess what we actually have or do!
Until then...

Again, you are making my point for me. Nothing wrong with buying for subjective reasons but if you want to state as a fact that unit A is better than unit B in a specific technical element, you need more data than Joe has presented. Until the data is made evident, then it's an opinion.

Did I miss where ownership of a product was required to post in any thread? Not a very inviting statement to prospective owners either.
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post #383 of 1118 Old 08-21-2012, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

It is a fact that Joe says he noticed a difference.

Unfortunately, Joe noticing a difference under his conditions doesn't prove that there is one. Joe's opinion is that it does and I believe that he is being honest within the limits of his process.

There are people who believe the moon is made of green cheese based on their observations. Doesn't make it a fact, despite their strongly held opinion.
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post #384 of 1118 Old 08-21-2012, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Again, you are making my point for me. Nothing wrong with buying for subjective reasons but if you want to state as a fact that unit A is better than unit B in a specific technical element, you need more data than Joe has presented. Until the data is made evident, then it's an opinion.
Did I miss where ownership of a product was required to post in any thread? Not a very inviting statement to prospective owners either.

It is a fact that 5010/5009 sound slightly better then 3010/3009...Do you own any of these units?

No ownership required...But it does help understand what we are talking about...Take it however you like...

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post #385 of 1118 Old 08-21-2012, 01:24 PM
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Could you please stop your belly aching or find another site to complain on? Here's a guy who has dedicated time, effort and wife-indlugence to offer something of great value to this community and you sit here berating him because he did not state up from this was his opinion? Really? This isn't an Onkyo site, this is volunteer work. IMHO, he has given me great value and to beat this into the ground because he didn't say "my opinion" borders on the absurd. Buddy, just let it go, eh?

Or by the by, I don't have any charts to back up that you're being a PITA to this ppor guy who has dedicated so much time for us, so let me state up front before you assail me as well. This is my opinion and I don't have any stats to support it nor has this been sanctioned by JoeRod. Though I am betting I get a fllod of emails supporting my view. I guess I could run a six sigma anaylsis off that?

I trust the "facts" of any man that has 5 receivers at a time available for switch out. He does this all the time and I trust his instincts. If all you're going to do is complain that he doesnt post a disclaimer on his site, I'm guessing you're going to sue McDonald's next because their cups don't specifically say "Hot coffee inside, a significant chance of burning yourself exists if you don't have any common sense."
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post #386 of 1118 Old 08-21-2012, 01:27 PM
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And as a final nail in the coffin....the original article he wrote on the comparisons between the 3009, 3010, 5009, 5010 (which was bloody GREAT, thanks again Joe): http://hstrial-jrodriguez996.homestead.com/ONKYO-TX-NR1010-3010-5010-Reviews-and-Comparison.html?_=1344975582259

specifially states "Please keep in mind these are my opinions based on my room size and my speaker lay out. Not to mention my ears as and some of the guests I bribed to listen as well. Also Jaclyn's! Thanks for reading and I hope I have helped you... Somewhat."

So, he in does fact state its his opinion....
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post #387 of 1118 Old 08-21-2012, 01:32 PM
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Oddly, all of this came from my simple and polite suggestion to Joe that he more clearly state elements of his review as opinion to avoid this kind of mess.

Then the fanbois arrived. Circle the wagons fellas!
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post #388 of 1118 Old 08-21-2012, 01:35 PM
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Would it be fair to assume the design implementation to accommodate E-Onkyo streaming hi-rez music service involves firmware available on some of the 2012 AVR's ? In other words, when it becomes available in anticipated Fall 2012 in USA that only some of the fully featured 2012 Onkyo AVR's can provide access ? In other words, a software download to prior year 2011 models is not possible to accomodate E-Onkyo streaming service ?

http://www.intl.onkyo.com/whats_new/2012_0503.html

http://www.intl.onkyo.com/whats_new/2012_0503.html

I inquired to Onkyo-USA without reply.
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post #389 of 1118 Old 08-21-2012, 01:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Unfortunately, Joe noticing a difference under his conditions doesn't prove that there is one. Joe's opinion is that it does and I believe that he is being honest within the limits of his process.

Sure it does. In Joe's house, using Joe's speakers and such, Joe noticed a difference. I noticed a major difference between my non-Audyssey, only 7.1 Pioneer 1120 and the 3010 which uses Audyssey XT32 and 9.1. According to you, my differences do not exist because I cannot "prove" them by showing a graph. Hogwash.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Oddly, all of this came from my simple and polite suggestion to Joe that he more clearly state elements of his review as opinion to avoid this kind of mess.
Then the fanbois arrived. Circle the wagons fellas!

Acting the martyr does not become you. This all started because you said he could not hear the differences without a graph saying he does and therefor him expressly stating that it is all his own personal opinion is not good enough to actually made claims. As for fanboi, I went from a Denon to a Pioneer to the Onkyo...durrr
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post #390 of 1118 Old 08-21-2012, 02:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lionanimal View Post

Would it be fair to assume the design implementation to accommodate E-Onkyo streaming hi-rez music service involves firmware available on some of the 2012 AVR's ? In other words, when it becomes available in anticipated Fall 2012 in USA that only some of the fully featured 2012 Onkyo AVR's can provide access ? In other words, a software download to prior year 2011 models is not possible to accomodate E-Onkyo streaming service ?
http://www.intl.onkyo.com/whats_new/2012_0503.html
http://www.intl.onkyo.com/whats_new/2012_0503.html
I inquired to Onkyo-USA without reply.

From your link:

(Japan Only)
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