Denon VS Onkyo 2012 Range - Page 2 - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: What would you buy?
Denon 2113 14 60.87%
Onkyo 616 4 17.39%
Other? 5 21.74%
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post #31 of 53 Old 06-25-2012, 12:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Helpful as always there OldSchool - I think I am most likely going to go for a Denon now - and it will most likely either be the AVR-3312 model, or the 2113/3113. I just think if I get an unsupported old model, that I will inevitably have to change the receiver in a few years time, whilst i'm hoping the new 2012/13 range are a little more future proofed. I'm not too sure to be honest - I understand completely where you are coming from! I do think if I go for the old range, I will most likely go for the 3312 as opposed to the 2312 you mention, as it looks a huge amount better, i.e. gets rid of most of the downsides you mentioned in the link...What do you think? Also, I can pick one up now for sub £600 which is surely a great price!?

I may wait until a true review comes out of the new Yamaha 673 - talking to someone from Creative Audio, they seem to think it may be better sound quality, with the features of the Onkyo - I wonder if this will be true!?

Do you know anything about the Yamaha at all, apart from the fact it may not be as reliable as the Denon?
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post #32 of 53 Old 06-25-2012, 12:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Also, what's the sound difference between the old 3312 and the newer 2113/2313 - do you know?

They both have Audyssey XT don't they?
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post #33 of 53 Old 06-25-2012, 01:42 PM
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^^^

in a properly controlled test, there's no "sound difference" between any modern solid state equipment*....

apply the same properly implemented dsp (audyssey xt, in this case), and that will hold true as well... although it'd be a BEAR to do that test right...

also, keep in mind that some of the "downsides" of certain equipment may not be "downsides" for your usage...

fwiw, the newer 2xxx models really aren't any more "future proof" than the previous years 3xxx models...

determine what features you need "today"... find an avr in your budget that has those....

* unless it is intentionally modified/designed to color the sound....

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post #34 of 53 Old 06-26-2012, 12:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Ccotenjy - appreciated.

So, just to clairfy then, there's not real better sound quality coming out of the newer models, than the old?

If that is the case, I may as well go for one of the older models, i.e. the 3312, as it seems to have more built in features that the newer 2113 models?

Why then, can I ask, would everyone not be going for one of the old models? Surely Denon realised the newer 2113/2313 models for a reason? Surely something there has improved (bar the 4k upscaling etc.)?
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post #35 of 53 Old 06-26-2012, 03:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Your best bet for speaker recommendations is in the Speakers forum. Although you'll likely want to stay away from the Wharfdales as they are more difficult to drive and may require an external amp if you prefer louder than average movie/music volume, whereas the 2313 is the lowest model with pre-outs for an external amp. Also a general rule of thumb is that the 5.1 speaker setup should cost about 2x-3x more than the AVR, the idea being that it's better to spend more on better quality speakers than on the AVR.

Could you explain this a little further please? After 2 months of browsing the web i finally settled on this combination ( denon 2113ci and Wharfedale dx1 hcp). And now i see that they don't fit well together :-/

What do you mean by difficult to drive? Sorry for the newb questions :-/

Thx in advance!!
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post #36 of 53 Old 06-26-2012, 03:57 AM
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The Wharfdale DX1 speakers have a lower than average sensitivity rating of 82db, meaning it will take 4x the power to drive them than a speaker with say an 88db rating. In a bedroom or small den these would be fine where you wouldn't expect to have to raise the volume too high.

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post #37 of 53 Old 06-26-2012, 05:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brw2012 View Post

Thanks Ccotenjy - appreciated.

So, just to clairfy then, there's not real better sound quality coming out of the newer models, than the old?

If that is the case, I may as well go for one of the older models, i.e. the 3312, as it seems to have more built in features that the newer 2113 models?

Why then, can I ask, would everyone not be going for one of the old models? Surely Denon realised the newer 2113/2313 models for a reason? Surely something there has improved (bar the 4k upscaling etc.)?

realistically, "audio reproduction" has been figured out for a long time... virtually every part in a modern piece of equipment (that isn't a pos) is essentially transparent... others will feel differently, of course...

the "thing" that makes for sound quality differences is dsp (most specifically room correction/eq)...

with the exception of totl models, every cem "replaces" their models on a yearly basis... why? well, look at your own posts... wink.gif for a period of 5 years or so, it was pretty easy to rationalize (for me, anyway redface.gif ), purchasing the new model every year, because there were actual useful feature upgrades... but right now, i've got a 2 year old model, with no real good reason (sadly) to purchase the latest and greatest...

bottom line... when looking at avr's, look at features...

- chris

 

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post #38 of 53 Old 06-26-2012, 05:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brw2012 View Post

Why then, can I ask, would everyone not be going for one of the old models? Surely Denon realised the newer 2113/2313 models for a reason? Surely something there has improved (bar the 4k upscaling etc.)?

All the major manufacturers come out with a new lineup every year. I would guess it's so they have a similar feature set at a given price point. If you have a choice between a 2013 model with features A-Z or a 2012 model with features A-Y and they cost the same, you would probably opt for the 2013 model. Even if you don't really care about feature Z. You don't need it, but if it's essentially free, why not take it?

The reason people will buy the 2013 model is because people think it will be more advanced than the 2012 model and pretty soon, you won't be able to get a 2012 model. Denon can probably manufacture a 2013 model for less than a 2012 model since they continually look at places they can shave a few $'s, so they have an incentive to switch over to the newer model.

My experience is the best bang for the buck is buying a receiver that has recently been replaced by a new model. Unless there's a must have feature in the newer model, you can typically get a comparable older model receiver for 30% or so less. But, don't wait too long as the older models can sell out quickly.
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post #39 of 53 Old 06-26-2012, 07:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks KidHorn - I think I've been converted into getting an 'old' model wink.gif

I have just taken a look at the Onkyo-709 and it looks amazing! Has literally everything I am after (except maybe AirPlay, but that can be forgiven) - the only reason I was deliberating between the 616 and the 2113 in the first place was the fewer features on the Denon, but the Audyssey XT on the Denon etc. The 709 looks to have the lot - the 4k scaling, all the ports I desire, and the Audyssey XT - is it just me or does this player seem ideal?

I know there were posts earlier mentioning the reliability of these though - do we know if the problems were all fixed in the end with that range of models?

Is there anything else im missing here in maybe going for the 709 as opposed to the new 616?

Thanks smile.gif
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post #40 of 53 Old 06-26-2012, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brw2012 View Post

Thanks KidHorn - I think I've been converted into getting an 'old' model wink.gif
I have just taken a look at the Onkyo-709 and it looks amazing! Has literally everything I am after (except maybe AirPlay, but that can be forgiven) - the only reason I was deliberating between the 616 and the 2113 in the first place was the fewer features on the Denon, but the Audyssey XT on the Denon etc. The 709 looks to have the lot - the 4k scaling, all the ports I desire, and the Audyssey XT - is it just me or does this player seem ideal?
I know there were posts earlier mentioning the reliability of these though - do we know if the problems were all fixed in the end with that range of models?
Is there anything else im missing here in maybe going for the 709 as opposed to the new 616?
Thanks smile.gif

The 709 is a good receiver. Particularly for the money. Onkyo has had reliability issues over the past 5 or so years. They seem to be getting better, but are still lagging behind the others. Onkyos tend to run hotter than others, so if you get an Onkyo, try to keep it in a well ventilated spot.
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post #41 of 53 Old 06-26-2012, 12:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah I was actually chatting to someone today about the top end of the old receivers, i.e. maybe looking to get the Onkyo 709, the Denon 3312, or the Yamaha A810 - do you know much about these at all?

The Yamaha looks absolutely amazing, and i've heard the Adventage series are pretty nice - but doesnt have 4k (not too sure how worried I am about this tbh)! Still a little worried with the Onkyos overall with the problems everyone mentioned though (even though the 709 looks amazing!)...

A point the guy raised I spoke to though, is that with old receivers, they will become subject to handshaking faults and outdated firmware, just because the tech evolves so quickly and soon they will become supported - do you agree with this?
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post #42 of 53 Old 06-26-2012, 12:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Another one to chuck in the mix - the Yamaha RX-A1010 maybe?

The A-810 seems to be going for around £500 atm though wink.gif
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post #43 of 53 Old 06-26-2012, 12:33 PM
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I have a Yamaha a-800. It's a solid receiver. I saw it for $299 and couldn't pass it up. The only thing it doesn't have is an ethernet port. I'm not sure if the 810 has one. I used it to replace an Onkyo 606 that had complete HDMI failure. I set it up and ran YPAO. It did as good a job as audyssey. At least I couldn't tell an obvious difference. It runs way cooler than the Onkyo. This was my second Yamaha and I've never had an issue with either of them.

I haven't done extensive investigation, but I don't think last years models are any more prone to handshaking issues than this years models. HDMI 1.4 has been out for a while and most of the bugs were ironed out long ago.
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post #44 of 53 Old 06-26-2012, 12:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Sounds good - anyone else have any opinions on which of the old models are worth a look? The 709 seems great - with problems. the Yamaha (A's) sound pretty good, but do not have Audyssey as KidHorn mentioned, is this a big thing? Also, does not have AirPlay, or 4k support (pretty useless I'd imagine), but still....Maybe the 3312 then? Although the A series Yamahas are meant to be miles ahead (so i've heard...)?!
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post #45 of 53 Old 06-27-2012, 04:35 AM - Thread Starter
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OK, so done a little research and put together an Excel sheet with all of the models I am looking at, new and old, with the components I am after, and have seen the following:

As I am after Audyssey EQ XT (as it seems a v good feature), looks like I am limited to the old Onkyo 709, or the old/new Denons. I know Yamaha doesn't have this, but from my understanding seems to have it's own version of this - any good?

Given the above, I then looked into the spec of the 709 and the denons, and it seems the the old 709 has 4k scaling (may be quite useful) but doesnt have AirPlay (which would be useful to me). Therefore, I'm thinking now maybe the old Denon 3312 model which has AirPlay, 7 inputs, 2 outs, zone 2 & 3, XT, 7 x 165 watts, and a decent amount of ports. Only thing this is missing is the 4k scaling, so not too sure how vital this is - as when I get a 4k TV, i would hope the TV would do the upscaling, no?

Only thing that puts me off the 3312 is the reviews. Googled a few reviews and they don't seem that easy to set up/bit of a pain/not that great - people agree?

Thoughts people?
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post #46 of 53 Old 06-27-2012, 05:03 AM
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IMO - 4k is a non issue. If it comes out (one company is already showing an 8k prototype) you will need sources that can provide this new resolution. New Blu-ray player, television, etc - lots of $$$$$$$. I would think if it happens that the TV will have decent built in upscaler and would not be needed in the receiver. More than likely it will be 3-4 years before this might settle out and by then you may be looking at upgrading your receiver for new sound formats as well.
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post #47 of 53 Old 06-28-2012, 12:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, agreed - think 4k is a bit of a loose end atm.

So what about the reviews on the 3312 then - how come they aren't that great/somewhat non-existent? Looks on paper a very decent amp - especially for the money now?
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post #48 of 53 Old 06-28-2012, 06:07 AM
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I have a Denon 4311 that I use in a 11.2 setup. The setup is much more complex than anything you'll do with a 3312. Unless you're unable to follow a few pages of directions in the user manual, you should have no trouble setting up the 3312.

I would totally ignore 4k upscaling. You wouldn't be able to use for several years and by then, assuming you purchased everything you need, your TV will almost certainly do a better upscaling job than the receiver.

It seems like you're torn between the 709 and 3312. I think most would agree the 3312 is a better receiver. The biggest difference to me is Denon has historically been more reliable than Onkyo. With either unit, you probably won't have a significant issue, but if you have one, it's a nightmare to get resolved.
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post #49 of 53 Old 07-01-2012, 08:45 AM
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Who has the better video output? I'm trying to get best picture on a 1080 Panasonic projector. I will be hooking up cable box and blue ray player to the receiver.
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post #50 of 53 Old 07-01-2012, 10:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Oh nooo - although I was going to look at the 3312 (even though I'm still not too sure about the not-so-great reviews) or the 709, I have been managed to get an offer for an Onkyo 616 or Denon 2113 and the Dali Zensor 5 speaker set, for a very very good price of £1300!

Oh, now I have a decision to make....:s
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post #51 of 53 Old 07-01-2012, 10:18 PM
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Notice something interesting today-
Amazon had 4311 with special "place in cart" pricing, their price for a new 4311 was $1399 plus $30 shipping. Checked again an hour ago and price is now around $1549 or something like that.
I wondering if the price bottom has been reached and now prices are going up.
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post #52 of 53 Old 07-03-2012, 08:48 PM
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I just started reading this thread. It's amazing the amount of time we spend on research for the perfect receiver. My plan a few months ago was the Denon 1912, it then became the 2112. I then switched to the Yamaha RX-a720....then down to the a710....then to the 810. I went to best buy to check out the 2112 one last time, only to find out they no longer carry it, but now have the 2113. I think I was sold on the 2113 until I saw discussions in this thread about 2312, 3312 and so on. I feel you're pain. We want the perfect receiver, On a different thread, someone told me the perfect receiver was the yamaha a810. I wish I could play with each receiver to see the pros/cons of each. On with my research...I'm back to researching the yamaha a720, denon avr-2113ci, avr-2312ci & avr-3312. I've had my current denon for 12 years.....not one problem.
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post #53 of 53 Old 07-03-2012, 08:54 PM
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The MultiEQXT will be helpful in most rooms with most speaker sets. On the Onk side, how many of the features will you really use? Now, mind you I am very old-school and have a Rotel 2-channel setup with KEF mains only.
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