Denon VS Onkyo 2012 Range - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: What would you buy?
Denon 2113 14 60.87%
Onkyo 616 4 17.39%
Other? 5 21.74%
Voters: 23. You may not vote on this poll

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post #1 of 53 Old 06-24-2012, 05:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi all,

First post on the forums - please be kind wink.gif

So, I have been looking to get an AV Receiver for a while. Basically, I want the receiver to be able to plug everything through it, i.e. TV, XBox, Sky Box, Wii, 3D Blu Ray etc etc...and generally use the box for an all-in-one amp with great surround sound quality.

I remember looking a little while ago and it was, back then, between the Onkyo-609 and the Denon-1912. However, after some advice, I was told to wait for the 2012 range, and now it's here. It seems to me like it's between the Onkyo 616 and the Denon 2113 - is this a fair comment? I am looking around the £500 budget, and it seems I can basically get both for the same price - £499.

Looking through all of the forums and reviews etc, I seem to be going round in circles with what one to purchase. My mind seemed to be made up with the 616 as it is packed with a great amount more features, more HDMI outputs, Zone 2 etc etc - but after copious amounts of reading, it seems the 616 has been packed full of bugs and may not be the best solution after all? From my understanding, the 616 is packed with more features as mentioned above, but the Denon has better sound quality overall with the MultiEQ XT, and also a nice plus (as I have various Apple products) is the AirPlay support (although yet again reviews have mentioned that it's nicer to just plug the apple products in :/).

Can I ask everyone's opinions on this please? What have people been going for, the Denon or the Onkyo? If I can be persuaded either way that would be great....

Thanks smile.gif
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post #2 of 53 Old 06-24-2012, 06:36 AM
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If you really want great sound quality, you should be considering the only receiver that offers it; the Cambridge Audio 650R.

It has twice the power supply capacity of even $3000 receivers, and puts out 100 watts on all seven channels with all fully driven.

Check out the Home Theater magazine review to confirm that it has the best sound quality, bar none.

The 551R is also excellent, with slightly less power but also excellent sound quality.
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post #3 of 53 Old 06-24-2012, 07:06 AM - Thread Starter
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I see, to be honest I've only actually ever really looked at the Denons/Onkyos/Pioneers/Yamahas etc - Although looking at the review of the CA you mentioned, it doesn't sound all that great?

http://www.whathifi.com/Review/Cambridge-Audio-Azur-650R/

Also, this seems like an expensive receiver - I'm more looking around the mid-range receivers for £500, i.e. the 616 or the 2113...
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post #4 of 53 Old 06-24-2012, 07:11 AM
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^^^

it is expensive, and hardly "worth" the money you would spend on it...

i suggest you review that poster's post history... wink.gif

as to "which denon would fit me"? there are extensive comparisons of the different models in the 2012 and 2013 denon threads... it is entirely possible that a "last year's" model will fit the bill for you, and save you a bit of money..

can't comment on the onkyo, other than that they have had some not insignificant q/c issues in recent years, and until it's proven those issues have been addresssed, i would not touch one...

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post #5 of 53 Old 06-24-2012, 07:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Thansk Ccotenj! Chatting to the likes of RicherSounds and Creative Audio etc, they all seem to favor the Onkyo just due to the sheer amount of features over the Denon. To be honest, that does appeal to me too - I'm just wondering what the sound quality is like over the Denon receivers, and also the problems I have heard with the Onkyos puts me off slightly :s

You mentioned the Denon 2012/12 range then - is it worth going for the 2313 over the 2113 - I think there's roughly £200 difference in them isnt there?
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post #6 of 53 Old 06-24-2012, 07:30 AM
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Having used a half dozen or so of each the sound quality difference (if any) between Onkyo and Denon isn't worth addressing (in my opinion). Feature wise reviewing several posts at the start of their related thread will tell you more than someone guessing what features might be relevant to you.

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post #7 of 53 Old 06-24-2012, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brw2012 View Post

Thansk Ccotenj! Chatting to the likes of RicherSounds and Creative Audio etc, they all seem to favor the Onkyo just due to the sheer amount of features over the Denon. To be honest, that does appeal to me too - I'm just wondering what the sound quality is like over the Denon receivers, and also the problems I have heard with the Onkyos puts me off slightly :s

You mentioned the Denon 2012/12 range then - is it worth going for the 2313 over the 2113 - I think there's roughly £200 difference in them isnt there?

you are welcome... smile.gif

actually what i meant was the "year" (i.e. 2012 vs. 2103), not the actual models themselves... smile.gif

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post #8 of 53 Old 06-24-2012, 07:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Also, just on that note - the 2113 is now £449 - so £50 cheaper which is nice smile.gif

Which does ask the question, I wonder what the 2313 is up for? Anyone know the best price for this receiver?

Whats the difference between the 2113 and the 2313?

Also, I did see another post putting the 2312 into contention - I've not even seen this one (presumably 2011 range?). Is this any good?

Thanks smile.gif
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post #9 of 53 Old 06-24-2012, 08:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes Charles, I agree.

From what I can understand, the following seems the key differences to me:

Denon 2113 over Onkyo 616:
- Greater sound quality (?)
- AirPlay
- MultiEQ XT

Onkyo 616 over Denon 2113:
- More HDMI Inputs (Could be ideal for me if I get anything else around the TV Area)
- 2 HDMI Outputs (incase I ever need them this could be good...)
- Generally more features


Decisions decisions...
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post #10 of 53 Old 06-24-2012, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

If you really want great sound quality, you should be considering the only receiver that offers it; the Cambridge Audio 650R.
It has twice the power supply capacity of even $3000 receivers, and puts out 100 watts on all seven channels with all fully driven.
Check out the Home Theater magazine review to confirm that it has the best sound quality, bar none.
The 551R is also excellent, with slightly less power but also excellent sound quality.

Do you have this same post on like a speedial sort of copy and paste, so you can post it over and over again?
beaveav likes this.
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post #11 of 53 Old 06-24-2012, 11:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Im gathering that reply has been seen a lot then?!

Back to the topic though - after more and more reading, although the 616 has a few more features, i.e. HDMI inputs/outputs, MHL - I just don't think I need them...

I now think the only reason I will end up going for the Onkyo, is if someone on here can advise me why? They seem like they have a lot of faults, and sounds quality isn't as great, and it's a tad more expensive?
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post #12 of 53 Old 06-24-2012, 11:40 AM
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I would go with the denon, if it turns out that you need more HDMI inputs or outputs in the future you can always add a hdmi switch.
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post #13 of 53 Old 06-24-2012, 01:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks DarkHorror - I was thinking that - is that possible to have a HDMI switch?

So, seems I have made my mind up on the Denon 2113 then (for a very decent price of £449 smile.gif ) - now speakers....

What does everyone think about this? I was originally going to go for the Wharfedale DX-1 set, or the Tannoy HTS101s....However, now looking into it, maybe it's worth spending a little more money and getting a set of KEF 3005SE-W or B&W MT-50s?

Whats everyone think about this? The KEFs and B&Ws are literally 3 times the price - are they really worth it?

Any other speaker sets anyone wants to chuck into the mix, please do!
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post #14 of 53 Old 06-24-2012, 02:24 PM
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Your best bet for speaker recommendations is in the Speakers forum. Although you'll likely want to stay away from the Wharfdales as they are more difficult to drive and may require an external amp if you prefer louder than average movie/music volume, whereas the 2313 is the lowest model with pre-outs for an external amp. Also a general rule of thumb is that the 5.1 speaker setup should cost about 2x-3x more than the AVR, the idea being that it's better to spend more on better quality speakers than on the AVR.

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post #15 of 53 Old 06-24-2012, 03:09 PM
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Onkyo has always been the best bang for the buck receiver. Unfortunately is also has been the most troublesome and unreliable receiver also. I was previously going to get the TX-NR709 until I found about all of it's issues. Then I was going to get the TX-NR609 because it was free of the 709/809 troubles, BUT had it's own troubles. I cancelled both orders. Bought a Yamaha RX-A710 and had HDMI handshake troubles and HDCP problems with my Motorola HD DVR. Upgraded to the Denon AVR-2312ci and am in heaven. Denon does have the lowest amount of connections out of the big 3 (Yamaha, Denon, and Onkyo), but they are more reliable. I've have bought 6 Yamaha receivers ( 3 have been bad out of the box) and now on my my second Denon (previously had an AVR-3803) and Denon is a the best IMO for reliability and operating as it 'should'. I had one Onkyo years ago when DD 5.1 came to market. Onkyo designed the receiver incorrectly by not offering a bass/subwoofer option to direct any bass from the surround speakers to the main speakers (when a subwoofer wasn't used or one was integrated into the main speakers). So I had to take it back because it wouldn't play well with my deep extending main speakers. A design flaw for sure. I have never trusted Onkyos designs after that but gave them the benefit of the doubt only to be disappointed, even with last years and this years offerings. I recommend against Onkyo now due to their frequent functional troubles.

Onkyo does offer the best features and connctions for the money, but last years *09 series was the best anywhere! To bad they always had problems. The 709 had features and connection comparable to other makers receivers at $2000.

BTW, the TX-NR616 is MUCH cheaper than the Denon AVR-2113ci by a good $170.

I don't care for these newer receivers as some offer no recording outputs or some don't even offer enough analog connections for my system. They are not compatible and not robust enough. Also the 2012 year from both makers have so many take aways compared to last years models and cost so much more. I wouldn't consider a 2012 model at all, they are a rip off. That's why I bought the AVR-2312ci. If you want a 2012 model, get a Yamaha. They are the only maker that actually has added features while taking none away compared to their 2011 models. They are the model to buy right now based on connections and features alone.

Here's some examples:

Denon AVR-2112ci
232


Denon AVR-2113ci (deleted the AM Tuner, 1 rear HDMI connection, and Dock connection/Input, thereby offering no IPOD video playback or S-Video connection)
233


Onkyo TX-NR609
232

Onkyo TX-NR616 (deleted Record out connections, RGB PC Connection, and universal port connection and input)
233


Yamaha RX-A710
232

Yamaha RX-A720 (deleted dock special connection but they offer full Ipod connection on front!)
234
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post #16 of 53 Old 06-24-2012, 07:34 PM
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Yeah but Yamaha is severely lacking hdmi inputs. For example the 673 only has 4. C'mon. 4? It's 2012. That was acceptable maybe 4 years ago.

65VT60+55GT50+Onkyo TX-NR727+Denon AVR-1913+OPPO bdp-103+OPPO bdp-83=Heaven
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post #17 of 53 Old 06-24-2012, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Semp1 View Post

Yeah but Yamaha is severely lacking hdmi inputs. For example the 673 only has 4. C'mon. 4? It's 2012. That was acceptable maybe 4 years ago.

Hum, I guess I go by a different counting standard, but I count 5 which is more than enough for almost anyone. You basically have a Bluray player, a HD cable DVR, and a DVD-Recorder which is 3. You really wouldn't connect a game system to a receiver because of lag and delay, you'd connect the HDMI directly to the TV and route any audio from the game system's digital optical/coaxial connection to the receiver's connection. If you don't have decent VOD with a cable system, you might elect to get one of those streaming media players (if your TV or Bluray isn't a smart version) and then that's another HDMI. You still have 1 free on the rear and 1 free in the front.

Doesn't matter as the Denon AVR-2112ci dropped to 5 HDMI connections as a lot of other makers. Onkyo offers more as I said with more features above, but unforunately it seems at the expense of engineering and reliability.
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post #18 of 53 Old 06-24-2012, 09:58 PM
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4 in the rear input on a 673. Not the above pictured. The 673 is what's within a price for comparison to the Onkyo and Denon listed. The one in the front is useless. I have 5 Hdmi equipped electronics in the bedroom 6 in the living room. Sorry buddy most people are like myself. 4 just isn't enough. It's ridiculous of you to say not to connect a game system to a receiver. My Panasonic experience virtually no lag and I have the HDMI set to through on the receiver skipping any video processing what so ever and by setting it to off. There is no added lag. That was a ridiculous statement.

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post #19 of 53 Old 06-24-2012, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Semp1 View Post

4 in the rear input on a 673. Not the above pictured. The 673 is what's within a price for comparison to the Onkyo and Denon listed. The one in the front is useless. I have 5 Hdmi equipped electronics in the bedroom 6 in the living room. Sorry buddy most people are like myself. 4 just isn't enough. It's ridiculous of you to say not to connect a game system to a receiver. My Panasonic experience virtually no lag and I have the HDMI set to through on the receiver skipping any video processing what so ever and by setting it to off. There is no added lag. That was a ridiculous statement.

The RX-A720 is a RX-V673 with upgraded components, chassis, and circuit routing to upgrade performance.

Here's your RX-V673. Click on the pic and see the "5" HDMI Inputs.
236

The Yamaha RX-A720 is to the RX-V673, as the Denon AVR-2113ci is to the AVR-1913, and as the Integra 30.4 is to the Onkyo TX-NR616 .

I think your ridiculous and here just as a troll. wink.gif
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post #20 of 53 Old 06-25-2012, 04:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for that post above OldSchoolMetal - much appreciated.

Yeah, from what I've heard I may stay clear of the Onkyo's tbh...too much hassle. As for the Denon's though, so you would rather go for the old 2011 model 2112 as oppose to the 2012 model 2113? I havent really read much on the 2011 model - but looking at it you can get them quite cheap now, similar type price to the 2113....But why have Denon got rid of those connections you mentioned? What have that added to the 2012 model that wasn't in the 2011 then? Does the 2011 one have the lieks of 4k upscaling etc?

Not really considered Yamaha before, I always thought it was a two horse race between the Onkyo and the Denon - although searching for the Yamaha 2012 models, are these not on sale yet? I can't seem to see them on WhatHiFi or RicherSounds etc? From what I can understand, the 2012 models are RX-V673 and RX-V773 - is that correct? Where does the RX-A720 come into play?

Thanks smile.gif
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post #21 of 53 Old 06-25-2012, 04:30 AM - Thread Starter
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post #22 of 53 Old 06-25-2012, 05:21 AM
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Hey OldSchool-
You raise a major issue with so many of the newer receivers. It is incredible how many connections have been removed on most of the new electronics! I sure don't miss S-Video as never used it but have lots of older equipment that I still use and need connections for. Wonder how many purchasers have been burned by not researching their needs and just assuming stuff can still be hooked up?

Question for you - what Yamaha receivers have you experienced problems with? Everything I read says that Yamaha enjoys possibly the longest track record of consistently producing reliable electronics and your post sure deviates from that. No - I am not doubting you at all just curious. Am considering a 3010 or 3020 myself.

Guess I need to change my name - maybe OldPhart? ;-)
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post #23 of 53 Old 06-25-2012, 05:28 AM
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I don't know about availability in the UK, but in the US, you can get a denon 3312 for under $600. IMO, it's much better than the two models you're considering even though it's a 2012 model.
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post #24 of 53 Old 06-25-2012, 06:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Over in the UK, I think the prices are roughly as follows:

Denon 2113 - £449/£499
Denon 2313 - £749/£799

Denon 3312 (2011 model) - £600/£649

Onkyo 616 - £499/£549
Onkyo 717 - £699/£749

So it looks to me as though it's basically the 2113/616 for the 2012 mid range amps - although if anyone can supply any info on the 2012 Yamaha range (as asked above) that would be awesome! Would be interested in a Yamaha of they prove to be any good wink.gif

Also, KidHorn I've not really looked at the 3312 before - that must be the very top end of the 2011 range - how does it compare to the new ones?
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post #25 of 53 Old 06-25-2012, 07:14 AM - Thread Starter
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KidHorn - from what I can tell about Denons 3312 model - this looks slightly similar to their 2012 new range, but without the 4k scaling and some other important features...is it wise to look at getting a discontinued model?

I would have thought getting a 2012 model would be better, no?
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post #26 of 53 Old 06-25-2012, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterK View Post

Question for you - what Yamaha receivers have you experienced problems with? Everything I read says that Yamaha enjoys possibly the longest track record of consistently producing reliable electronics and your post sure deviates from that. No - I am not doubting you at all just curious. Am considering a 3010 or 3020 myself.
Guess I need to change my name - maybe OldPhart? ;-)

My trouble started with a noisy vibrating transformer on my RX-V995 but it started after I owned it (within the first year) but I upgraded through a store policy to a RX-V2095. Then I bought a RX-V596 for a friend I was doing an install for. The bass management was all screwed up and the subwoofer output didn't work correctly. A new RX-V596 fixed that. After that, I bought a RX-V2300 which was a 6.1 receiver (only 1 rear back surround channel), but it had cosmetic damage on the face plate and it's bass management didn't work correctly again but I can't remember what it was exactly. I returned it for a Denon AVR-3803 and was glad I did. The AVR-3803 sounded a lot better, was a 7.1 channel receiver, and had so many more connections and features but it was about $100 more. I then recently bought a Yamaha RX-A720 which then had HDMI handshake problems with my Motorola HD DVR and then also had HDCP issues when going from a composite video input to the HDMI output, using conversion. It should had no problem with HDCP since it was a composite input. The HDCP issue was strictly within Yamaha receiver itself. Once again, replaced it with a Denon, a Denon AVR-2312ci, and it had none of the those problems. Granted the motorola box does have HDMI handshake issues within itself but the Denon works with it where the Yamaha did not.

I just find that Yamaha has a very high defect rate with poor quality control while Onkyo has engineering and design issues. These 2 receivers I'd stay away from now. BUT the RX-V673 is such a bargain, I'd honestly say I'd have to gamble to see if I could find one that worked properly.

Of course HK had all kinds of issues but none as bad as those from others complaints.

Looks like Denon, Pioneer Elite/Pioneer, Marantz, Sony ES/Sony are your more reliable brands.
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post #27 of 53 Old 06-25-2012, 08:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Sounds like you've experienced quite a few faults with the Yamahas as well then - not good.

The only one sounding reliable then seems to be the Denon smile.gif Just out of curiosity OldSchool - why did you go for last years range with the 2312 as opposed to the 2313? The 2313 offers a lot more by the sounds of things (with slightly less inputs granted)?
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post #28 of 53 Old 06-25-2012, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brw2012 View Post

KidHorn - from what I can tell about Denons 3312 model - this looks slightly similar to their 2012 new range, but without the 4k scaling and some other important features...is it wise to look at getting a discontinued model?
I would have thought getting a 2012 model would be better, no?

The primary advantages of the 3312 is it has audyssey multieq xt. It has pre-outs and it has a more powerful amp section. It doesn't support 4k, but upscaling to 4k will almost certainly be handled by a 4k tv so there's likely no advantage to having a receiver that does it.

The 3312 was recently on sale at amazon for $549. Not sure if it's equally discounted in europe.
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post #29 of 53 Old 06-25-2012, 09:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks KidHorn. Sounds like a plausable solution - I'm just not too sure I can bring myself to buy an old one....not too sure why though :/ You mentioned the 3312 has Audyssey MultiEQ XT, but then again so does the new 2113 and 2313 range. This is one of the main reasons why I am thinking of going for Denon over Onkyo too - quite a nice addition smile.gif

Just trying to decifer the difference between the 2113 and the 2313, apart from the prices :s
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post #30 of 53 Old 06-25-2012, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brw2012 View Post

Sounds like you've experienced quite a few faults with the Yamahas as well then - not good.
The only one sounding reliable then seems to be the Denon smile.gif Just out of curiosity OldSchool - why did you go for last years range with the 2312 as opposed to the 2313? The 2313 offers a lot more by the sounds of things (with slightly less inputs granted)?

Here's the reason why, my responses are in red as well as the reply to the quote. I wouldn't own a AVR-**13 models except for the AVR-3312ci because it doesn't lose as much but the AVR-3312ci is still a much better overall receiver IMO.
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