Pioneer's Reasonably Priced SC-61 Class D Receiver - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 140 Old 09-10-2012, 06:41 PM
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as far as all the rest, to me, this thread has mostly been a monologue wink.gif
So, while interesting, it's mostly a one man technical dissertation.

carry on smile.gif

Steve
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post #92 of 140 Old 09-11-2012, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dozer95667 View Post

HiFiFun: If I was going to remove the DACs from my SC-61 and replace them with DACs made entirely of Rearden Metal or one of the other super alloys.... then what kind of DACs would I be removing in the process?

I forgot to mention that this was hilarious! biggrin.gif

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post #93 of 140 Old 09-11-2012, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

as far as all the rest, to me, this thread has mostly been a monologue wink.gif
So, while interesting, it's mostly a one man technical dissertation.

carry on smile.gif

pseudo-technical dissertation... wink.gif

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

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post #94 of 140 Old 09-11-2012, 08:50 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

A little hard to follow but it looks like the power amp inputs are analog in that block diagram...
I find a lot of BeeGees tracks irritating...
Which is the purpose of this thread - improving your sound and picture.
As I've documented its your system has which the problem (just like everyone else).

The issue is that consumers have not been able to figure out the multitude of things simultaneously going wrong.
I've taken the time to show everyone the testing and auditioning stages to increase fidelity in my home theater system.

The industry experts only want consumers to buy new expensive pieces of gear, which won't come close to solving the issues afflicting typical system.
Never forget a system is only as good as its weakest link.

What if a company advertised $300 cables. Would they be worried about too truthful evaluations?
Does Mon***r use Redmere technology which i just evaluated?

Do the new high-speed cables have a much tighter tolerance than older designs? Does this allow for increased performance?

Do unbalanced RCA audio cables have a shield connector? Do XLR cables have a shielded connector?
Should MHz square waves in the HDMI cable also be shielded?
Why aren't HDMI cables not shielded right at the most critical point, namely at the input or the HDMI receiver and the chassis ground. Can there be coupling and interference here? Does the shield help improve the grounding, and if so at one frequencies?

Do we have all the facts of these newest high-speed HDMI metallic connector cables? Not at all. For example they may have new geometric ways of bonding the ground which better maintains the characteristic impedance, a huge issue with the inferior HDMI connector shape. But we may never know why, as manufactures don't reveal trade secrets.

If we had the resources we could set up an RF laboratory to measure all the stuff. But we don't so we are forced to use engineering principles and observations to evaluate the best technology.

The other issue which adversely affects the true advances of new technology is the owners of last years technology. Why?
At least with this cable upgrade, no consumer will take a financial bath. My old ferrite HDMI cables are in the trash right where they belong.

Again consider the $5 Monoprice metallic connector cables. I've tried them now in two systems (the second with a 70" LCD) and its a true beer-budget advance.
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post #95 of 140 Old 09-11-2012, 09:52 AM
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^^^

you are falsely/mistakenly ascribing attributes to cables that do not exist...

hdmi cables have two options...

1) work
2) don't work

this is grounded in "science"... your posts, while technical sounding, show absolutely no respect for "science"...

carry on...

- chris

 

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post #96 of 140 Old 09-11-2012, 10:35 AM
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I have begun wearing aluminum foil around my head when reading this thread - blocking the EM interference has made me smarter or was it my stay at a Holiday Inn last night?

Hifi what you are posting is complete BS and not helping those looking at these receivers or who own them and have serious questions - sorry, just calling it the way it seems. Show the data confirming what you've "heard" and I will be happy to acknowledge your position as a "consumer advocate." Otherwise just more unsupported crap we've seen on other threads you visit. Your posts read like something from the Dave Schulte and the Upgrade Company. Glad your enjoying your new receiver though.

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post #97 of 140 Old 09-11-2012, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

Which is the purpose of this thread - improving your sound and picture.
As I've documented its your system has which the problem (just like everyone else).

The issue is that consumers have not been able to figure out the multitude of things simultaneously going wrong.
I've taken the time to show everyone the testing and auditioning stages to increase fidelity in my home theater system.
The industry experts only want consumers to buy new expensive pieces of gear, which won't come close to solving the issues afflicting typical system.
Never forget a system is only as good as its weakest link.
What if a company advertised $300 cables. Would they be worried about too truthful evaluations?
Does Mon***r use Redmere technology which i just evaluated?
Do the new high-speed cables have a much tighter tolerance than older designs? Does this allow for increased performance?
Do unbalanced RCA audio cables have a shield connector? Do XLR cables have a shielded connector?
Should MHz square waves in the HDMI cable also be shielded?
Why aren't HDMI cables not shielded right at the most critical point, namely at the input or the HDMI receiver and the chassis ground. Can there be coupling and interference here? Does the shield help improve the grounding, and if so at one frequencies?
Do we have all the facts of these newest high-speed HDMI metallic connector cables? Not at all. For example they may have new geometric ways of bonding the ground which better maintains the characteristic impedance, a huge issue with the inferior HDMI connector shape. But we may never know why, as manufactures don't reveal trade secrets.
If we had the resources we could set up an RF laboratory to measure all the stuff. But we don't so we are forced to use engineering principles and observations to evaluate the best technology.
The other issue which adversely affects the true advances of new technology is the owners of last years technology. Why?
At least with this cable upgrade, no consumer will take a financial bath. My old ferrite HDMI cables are in the trash right where they belong.
Again consider the $5 Monoprice metallic connector cables. I've tried them now in two systems (the second with a 70" LCD) and its a true beer-budget advance.

You are absoutely on-target..
Hi-end cables can/will make a big sonic difference..
I am running the Nordost ODIN Supreme Reference Speaker Cables, that retail for $20,000..
Thank goodness...
I had an inside industry connection and got these on accomodation, so they only cost me $12,000.
Using twenty-four conductors made of 99.99999% oxygen free copper with an extruded layer of silver, these cables promise uncompromising sound. The conductors are constructed using a Precision Dual Micro Mono-Filament design. The conductors are arranged in four groups of six conductors for maximum flexibility. When I hooked up my Bose loudspeakers with these cables I heard cleaner bass and more transparent highs than I ever thought was possible..

Just my $0.02... wink.gif
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post #98 of 140 Old 09-11-2012, 11:09 AM
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Can a mod take apart this thread ... put the first few posts in the official owners thread and move the rest to the twilight zone? I used to, many many years ago... be part of a forum that had an "asylum" for such garbage, where all manner of BS was warmly embraced. not a bad way to set up a board.

Problem is, this thread has a misleading title. I saw a guy with pics of the SC-61 guts and thought we would talk about the machine and its functions... not voodoo.

Or maybe even just change the thread title?
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post #99 of 140 Old 09-11-2012, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

thanks to everyone finding the documentation that tells the real story...analog signals to a pulse mode switching amp. I know for certain this is how the Ice amps worked.
as far as how 57 relates to 61, same amps from IR same design architecture...what Pioneer is calling "class D3" amp. why anyone as knowledgeable as some posting here, came to believe there's no dac in the signal path to the amps, and the amp is directly taking the dig signal, is not supported by all the previously known facts of the design.
sorry I couldn't produce the blk diag myself today but I'm out of pocket for other than catch-up posts like this smile.gif
Thanks, PrietzOr.


Yeah smile.gif
No problem ss9001, It's always so interesting to see that kind of information wink.gif

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post #100 of 140 Old 09-13-2012, 03:30 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Its a sad day when the average Amazon novice has more insight than self proclaimed experts at AVS
Which is why I'd rather read the customer reviews at Amazon or Newegg...

i'd like to offer a superb beer-budget buy in the new high-speed cables:
http://www.amazon.com/BlueRigger-High-Speed-Cable-Ethernet/dp/B0061RJSWC/ref=?ie=UTF8&m=A3TG9YEWX61L6A

HDMI cables have markedly improved, as I've tested several. The picture and sound improvement should be noticeable to just about anyone.wink.gif

I also bought a 35 ft version for only $23.

Enjoy!

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post #101 of 140 Old 09-13-2012, 03:40 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

Now its a sad day when the average Amazon novice has more insight than the self proclaimed experts at AVS as no advances are possible!
The issue is you guys have a formed a click. You keep the same dogma and reinforce each other. This impedes progress.
This is why i write a "monologue" rather than move as* backwards. You are stuck in a rut and I'm not being sucked in! tongue.gif

The rest of the world is moving past you "experts" on this very subject. Sadly even novices put you to shame.
Here is the proof:

I went back to Amazon and read several pages of novice customer reviews to see how they described the noticeable improvements in picture and audio quality with the $7 BlueRigger cables

Its so interesting because HDMI cable are digital and ** nothing ** should make any difference. Sound familiar guys?

The most common response was to buy more cables. That is, they could not understand what they observed, but subliminally they liked it and wanted more.

To their credit probably 20% of people came flat out and stated they noticed improvements:
Once plugged in, I received a crisp, fresh picture...
It works great and it looks great...
These virtually eliminated the problem and even enhanced my video...

So here are thousands of unbiased novices noticing the differences a digital HDMI cable makes. Enjoy and learn guys. Remember to have $7 in your account before ordering:
http://www.amazon.com/BlueRigger-High-Speed-Cable-Ethernet/product-reviews/B0061RJSWC/ref=cm_cr_pr_btm_link_next_4?ie=UTF8&pageNumber=4&showViewpoints=0&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

Sadly, this pleasant, rewarding and unexpected phenomena will also be ignored by the establishment A/V press as there is simply no advertising $$$ in it!
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post #102 of 140 Old 09-13-2012, 03:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

The issue is you guys have a formed a click.

for the record, it's spelled clique wink.gif

Steve
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post #103 of 140 Old 09-13-2012, 04:10 AM
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and for your info

I have tried exotic cables, loaned to me by my local Magnepan dealer who I was buying speakers from and an expensive tube preamp. I'll even go into specifics - they were Kimber Cable KCAG all silver interconnects - about $600 for a meter's worth.

and heard - absolutely no difference between them and my "normal" Monster 400's. None whatsoever. I wanted to hear a difference because that twisted pair of silver sure looked nice but if I'm going to spend that much money on a cable, it better make some difference, even a small one.

I absolutely think that $20000 spent on speaker cables would be FAR better off bettering the speakers themselves rolleyes.gif Because to spend that much money to wire up speakers in the mere thousand dollar range is kind of nutso wink.gif

The dealer also had $4500 Maggies connected with $8000 Kimbers - what a mis-allocation of resources! why anyone would buy into that instead of taking the $8000 to buy the $12000 highly regarded top Maggie speaker is beyond me.

I'm all for buying the best one can afford but you also have to keep things in balance. Hi dollar cable enthusiasts forget that they could achieve far more improvements by spending that cable exotica money on better speakers or improving room acoustics...

And this has absolutely nothing to do with "clicks" tongue.gif

Maybe what you perceive as resistance is just a number of people who have come to the same conclusion on their own by reading objective science, and their own experiences and realized they wasted money on products that made no difference to the sound.

Steve
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post #104 of 140 Old 09-13-2012, 04:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

I went back to Amazon and read several pages of novice customer reviews to see how they described the noticeable improvements in picture and audio quality with the $7 BlueRigger cables

you take layman reviews on amazon as scientific evidence of superiority? that's similar to people who believe the universe is only 5000-10000 years old because they want to believe every word in the "Good Book" as literally true instead of reason & scientific fact.

but for $7 they are worth a try smile.gif I have nothing against a different brand.

I sincerely hope you achieve your goals, keep posting & we'll keep reading. Most will at least give you the benefit of the doubt to see if what you think is going on can be rationalized.

Steve
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post #105 of 140 Old 09-13-2012, 09:00 AM
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Still wondering if I finally need to upgrade to this beast from old HK receiver with all opamps bypassed and Hypex modules installed in place of power stages...

It may be not that obvious but it is definitely good it has DACs in signal path because the only Class D amps that sound good are self-oscillating (analog loopback) ones. IRAUDAMP are one of them (probably not the best, I like Hypex more, but quite good anyway, unsure if Pioneer engineers managed to improve them beyond Hypex). But for couple of reasons these fully-digital solutions like say TI PurePath do not even come close to them, both parametrically and in listening tests so if we got fully digital Class D receiver as we know them currently there would be much worse sounding one (while being bit-perfect up to PWM), that's what done right. Maybe we'll see perfectly sounding fully digital Class D amp one day...

If they used Sabre DACs it would be more promising but at least worth trying... OK, will wait for price drop at least rolleyes.gif

Thank you Prietz0r for sharing.
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post #106 of 140 Old 09-14-2012, 08:01 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

and for your info

Maybe what you perceive as resistance is just a number of people who have come to the same conclusion on their own by reading objective science, and their own experiences and realized they wasted money on products that made no difference to the sound.
You guys miss the point and mistake my viewpoint. I AM on your side and detest the snake oil of cables.

However at the other extreme some allow for NO progress to be made. I am dead-set against this, effectively putting one's head in the sand.
I AM of the opinion that everything can be explained by solid engineering principles.

Is anyone trying to take anyone to the cleaners here? I'm only recommending a $7 cable that even the novices at Amazon can hear and see the difference. Dah?
Go read their hundreds of reviews!

I’ve investigated HDMI cable technology in the past few days, and everyone missed the obvious shielding of the connector.
Take even Blue Jeans Cable, who has an excellent series of white papers on the subject. Here they identify several manufacturing techniques to increase performance:
http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/belden-hdmi-design-notes.htm?hdmidept

This is probably the major reason why BlueRigger cables and Monoprice Metallic sound better (they also matched my gold-plated ears better than tinfoil):

Traditional HDMI cables do NOT have this shield over where the wires are terminated.

My advice is to not overspent on ANY technology and further, buy no technology before its time. I've learned my costly lesson (not $ but loss of musical enjoyment) not to use an HDMI cable with and unshielded connector. It is also why i waited so long to buy my first Pioneer receiver.
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post #107 of 140 Old 09-14-2012, 08:08 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McDark View Post

Still wondering if I finally need to upgrade to this beast from old HK receiver with all opamps bypassed and Hypex modules installed in place of power stages...
It may be not that obvious but it is definitely good it has DACs in signal path because the only Class D amps that sound good are self-oscillating (analog loopback) ones. IRAUDAMP are one of them (probably not the best, I like Hypex more, but quite good anyway, unsure if Pioneer engineers managed to improve them beyond Hypex). But for couple of reasons these fully-digital solutions like say TI PurePath do not even come close to them, both parametrically and in listening tests so if we got fully digital Class D receiver as we know them currently there would be much worse sounding one (while being bit-perfect up to PWM), that's what done right. Maybe we'll see perfectly sounding fully digital Class D amp one day...
If they used Sabre DACs it would be more promising but at least worth trying... OK, will wait for price drop at least rolleyes.gif
Thank you Prietz0r for sharing.
Yes. In my opinion nothing comes close to the Pioneer SC receivers.

For a technical understanding, here is a superb tutorial on Class D from International Rectifier (Pioneer uses their devices). If I was a receiver manufacture engineering director, I’d send my engineers off to these classes.
Note: for class D to compete, designers must control RF interference, stray coupling and parasitic effects way more stringently than in class A/B designs. This is why the Pioneer sounds better than other conventional “digital” receivers with class A/B output stages. In other words, the RF emissions in Class A/B receivers are largely ignored. My initial observation upon listening how clean the Pioneer was: I stated as much. Now I know that this challenging task had been completed and refined several times by several different companies: Air Studios, Pioneer and IR.

Class D is better not just from the class D output stage, but because many of the previously surrounding circuit errors have been identified, acknowledged, and corrected or reduced. Their proprietary list must near a thousand items. True progress is costly and time consuming.
It also does not bode well for the competition, as there is a steep learning curve which most company’s management will not justify.
http://www.irf.com/product-info/audio/classddesign.html
"IR Conclusion:
Highly efficient Class D amplifiers now provide similar performance to conventional Class AB amplifiers -
If key components are carefully selected and the layout takes into account the subtle, yet significant impact due to parasitic components"
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post #108 of 140 Old 09-14-2012, 08:27 AM
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^^
and this proves (again) someone who has posted in this thread was wrong not only about Ice amps but also the IR ones as well. analog signals handled by pulse switched mode (PWM) power supply; it clearly states that in this paper as well as tutorials & product bulletins on their site smile.gif

btw - good job on finding that link. links to a lot of this info from IR were posted in the SC-57 thread but it's good to refresh our collective memories smile.gif

at least someone with the initials MC could well benefit from reading them before he spreads more misinformation around about Pioneer so-called "digital" amps rolleyes.gif

Steve
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post #109 of 140 Old 09-14-2012, 08:47 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

you take layman reviews on amazon as scientific evidence of superiority? that's similar to people who believe the universe is only 5000-10000 years old because they want to believe every word in the "Good Book" as literally true instead of reason & scientific fact.
but for $7 they are worth a try smile.gif I have nothing against a different brand.
I sincerely hope you achieve your goals, keep posting & we'll keep reading. Most will at least give you the benefit of the doubt to see if what you think is going on can be rationalized.
What a thoughtful response as America today is so filled with angry extremists. smile.gif

Seriously I can hear the difference and hopefully you can too. But you may not at this time. Results will vary per each system and individual. As I've stated earlier every system is like an onion with all sorts of issues.

IMO we are just now coming out of the digital dark ages. One answer is to simplify, as the more components, the greater the likelihood of issues developing. Further, with the Pioneer SC line, the typical consumer can attain better performance with this receiver than with separates. The proof that Pioneer successfully transversed a most difficult path: for instance in keeping a powerful analog supply.

But you should be able to follow my steps (skip the dead-ends) starting with the SC-61.

Note: Normally i do not discuss my personal life, but because of the fiscal cliff/sequestration i took an early retirement from a major defense contractor. So i have more time to "attack" this complicated subject matter with decades of engineering experience, just like i did at work. I love it!
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post #110 of 140 Old 09-14-2012, 12:12 PM
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^^^

thousands of amazon "reviews" do not change the fact that the "changes" that you are attributing to an hdmi cable aren't possible...

apply your engineering experience to learning "how hdmi transmission works"... i also hope you know about bias-controlled testing (which you are not doing)...

carry on...

- chris

 

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http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #111 of 140 Old 09-14-2012, 04:32 PM
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sighted testing by amateurs has a very predictable result. the "tweak" always helps. It can be cones under an amp or ink on a CD or passive bi-wiring. You plug in the new thing, and you go hear a difference.

doing it blind there is no chance you will hear more bloom from one HDMI cable than from another. no chance. zero.
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post #112 of 140 Old 09-15-2012, 07:48 AM - Thread Starter
 
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There are at least three vendors at Amazon selling step-up cables ($6-10 rather than $3) with full metal shielding.


The cheap foil shielding is only effective at certain frequencies as Beldin Cable Guide states. The termination looks horrendous.
The science indicates that they should sound like crap. So the naysayers do have a point, as this is what they are hearing.
Guys, click on the picture then right-click set as the desktop background

For faith i follow the Bible: the great Pharaoh of Egypt would not submit to God even when he saw proof before his very eyes.
There lesson is there will always be doubters, even to basic science. These posts add nothing but a reflection in the mirror.
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post #113 of 140 Old 09-16-2012, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

Which is the purpose of this thread - improving your sound and picture.
As I've documented its your system has which the problem (just like everyone else).

The issue is that consumers have not been able to figure out the multitude of things simultaneously going wrong.
I've taken the time to show everyone the testing and auditioning stages to increase fidelity in my home theater system.
The industry experts only want consumers to buy new expensive pieces of gear, which won't come close to solving the issues afflicting typical system.
Never forget a system is only as good as its weakest link.
What if a company advertised $300 cables. Would they be worried about too truthful evaluations?
Does Mon***r use Redmere technology which i just evaluated?
Do the new high-speed cables have a much tighter tolerance than older designs? Does this allow for increased performance?
Do unbalanced RCA audio cables have a shield connector? Do XLR cables have a shielded connector?
Should MHz square waves in the HDMI cable also be shielded?
Why aren't HDMI cables not shielded right at the most critical point, namely at the input or the HDMI receiver and the chassis ground. Can there be coupling and interference here? Does the shield help improve the grounding, and if so at one frequencies?
Do we have all the facts of these newest high-speed HDMI metallic connector cables? Not at all. For example they may have new geometric ways of bonding the ground which better maintains the characteristic impedance, a huge issue with the inferior HDMI connector shape. But we may never know why, as manufactures don't reveal trade secrets.
If we had the resources we could set up an RF laboratory to measure all the stuff. But we don't so we are forced to use engineering principles and observations to evaluate the best technology.
The other issue which adversely affects the true advances of new technology is the owners of last years technology. Why?
At least with this cable upgrade, no consumer will take a financial bath. My old ferrite HDMI cables are in the trash right where they belong.
Again consider the $5 Monoprice metallic connector cables. I've tried them now in two systems (the second with a 70" LCD) and its a true beer-budget advance.


What?
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post #114 of 140 Old 09-16-2012, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

The issue is you guys have a formed a click. You keep the same dogma and reinforce each other. This impedes progress.
This is why i write a "monologue" rather than move as* backwards. You are stuck in a rut and I'm not being sucked in! tongue.gif
The rest of the world is moving past you "experts" on this very subject. Sadly even novices put you to shame.
Here is the proof:
I went back to Amazon and read several pages of novice customer reviews to see how they described the noticeable improvements in picture and audio quality with the $7 BlueRigger cables
Its so interesting because HDMI cable are digital and ** nothing ** should make any difference. Sound familiar guys?
The most common response was to buy more cables. That is, they could not understand what they observed, but subliminally they liked it and wanted more.
To their credit probably 20% of people came flat out and stated they noticed improvements:
Once plugged in, I received a crisp, fresh picture...
It works great and it looks great...
These virtually eliminated the problem and even enhanced my video...
So here are thousands of unbiased novices noticing the differences a digital HDMI cable makes. Enjoy and learn guys. Remember to have $7 in your account before ordering:
http://www.amazon.com/BlueRigger-High-Speed-Cable-Ethernet/product-reviews/B0061RJSWC/ref=cm_cr_pr_btm_link_next_4?ie=UTF8&pageNumber=4&showViewpoints=0&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending
Sadly, this pleasant, rewarding and unexpected phenomena will also be ignored by the establishment A/V press as there is simply no advertising $$$ in it!

Yes, because Amazon reviews are soooooo accurate. rolleyes.gif
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post #115 of 140 Old 09-28-2012, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by dozer95667 View Post

Can a mod take apart this thread ... put the first few posts in the official owners thread and move the rest to the twilight zone?

ROTFLMAO!

I was thinking the same thing!

Edit: I'm still chuckling. Dozer, your delivery is flawless.

Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Unless, of course, it's to keep someone from creating a phone video in portrait mode, in which case it's a pretty good first step. Portrait mooks: KNOCK IT OFF.
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post #116 of 140 Old 09-28-2012, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

Its a sad day when the average Amazon novice has more insight than self proclaimed experts at AVS
Which is why I'd rather read the customer reviews at Amazon or Newegg...
i'd like to offer a superb beer-budget buy in the new high-speed cables:
http://www.amazon.com/BlueRigger-High-Speed-Cable-Ethernet/dp/B0061RJSWC/ref=?ie=UTF8&m=A3TG9YEWX61L6A
HDMI cables have markedly improved, as I've tested several. The picture and sound improvement should be noticeable to just about anyone.wink.gif
I also bought a 35 ft version for only $23.
Enjoy!

I'm struggling to see if you stumbled into something real here, and the only thing I can wonder is if you're confusing DVI-A , DVI-I (and HDMI)?

Or if the reviews that you're reading (other than the spoofs) are reporting an increase in audio quality because they're now using the 1.4 audio return channel from the TV instead of some other analog thing direct to the receiver? <---I can see that happening. Or that they are reporting a video quality increase over a previous YPBPR connection?

And of course, my continual vote: perception is horribly under the thumb of oppression of the power of suggestion. There are profoundly good reasons for this.

Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Unless, of course, it's to keep someone from creating a phone video in portrait mode, in which case it's a pretty good first step. Portrait mooks: KNOCK IT OFF.
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post #117 of 140 Old 09-28-2012, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dozer95667 View Post

sighted testing by amateurs has a very predictable result. the "tweak" always helps. It can be cones under an amp or ink on a CD or passive bi-wiring. You plug in the new thing, and you go hear a difference.

Exactly. When you are looking for a change, you see it.

Imagine looking outside to see if a tree in your yard has grown perceptibly. In order to do this your mind first conjures up what it might look like smaller so that you can gauge if that relative difference has any merit. You are then able to "see" a height increase because you're comparing it to a phantom memory. Further, every bit of height that it does have (even if the same height as before) feels like a discovery.

You can actually play with your mind's ability to do this. You can reverse the phenomenon by convincing yourself that the after image is smaller than the first. In fact, even with SIDE BY SIDE COMPARISONS you can practice convincing yourself one way, and then another, and actually see it.

Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Unless, of course, it's to keep someone from creating a phone video in portrait mode, in which case it's a pretty good first step. Portrait mooks: KNOCK IT OFF.
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post #118 of 140 Old 10-06-2012, 07:50 AM - Thread Starter
 
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When to Upgrade from the SC-61

1) Multiple HDMI outputs
Typically dedicated home theater rooms with front projection require two HDMI outputs.
Add-on HDMI splitter are to be avoided for system stability and performance issues. The cheap A/C digital switching power supply (wall warts) can negate all of Pioneers RF/EMI suppression advances. If any wall wart is to be used, then it must have its own isolated or dedicated filtering.
The extra stage of HDCP copy protection can make switching frames rates (60 to 24Hz) take longer or even unworkable. For example Power DVD 12 has a new automatic frame rate switching feature which works with a direct connection between the receiver output and the display, but not with an HDMI splitter inserted (this is also why there are no HDMI 1.4 splitters).
Solution: upgrade to the SC-65

2) Expanded Number of Surround Sound Channels
The SC-61 is fine with 5.x, but there are several insidious limitations when adding more channels.
Surprisingly the first feature to go is front bi-amp capability, even if you want to ONLY use the pre-amp output jacks capability. In the System Setting menu Pioneer forces amplifier channels to be used even if you want to use an external amplifier. The sole exception is the Surround Back channels which magically show up in the default Speaker Setting screen.
Further the Front Height and Width channels share the same jacks and terminal. So it’s one or the other. Additionally when either of these two is used the Surround Back channel(s) cannot be used. I had to put my hand on the speaker (for each mode) to find out which channel the SC-61 was using as the manual is silent.
Solution: upgrade to the SC-65

3) THX surround sound processing. Some members like combing THx processing with Dolby and DTS surround modes

The SC-65 and SC-68 have their own set of limitations as you push up to 11 channels. These are covered in the DTS Neo.X thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1305065/dts-neo-x/360_60#post_22467998


Most Worthless Receiver Connector of 2012
Apple
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post #119 of 140 Old 11-16-2012, 10:56 AM
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which sub eq works best with the sc-61
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post #120 of 140 Old 12-27-2012, 09:40 AM
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Which power did cord number did you buy from Mouser to replace the one that came with the SC-61?
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