Pioneer's Reasonably Priced SC-61 Class D Receiver - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 140 Old 03-03-2013, 12:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

Usually its best to go out to the Internet and download the latest software.
*** Not for this years Pioneer ***

The key is to use the sidebar for the included AVNavigator in addition what I already posted. Ignore the tab it opens in you Internet browser if you don't want to suffer.
The good news is Pioneer has switched over from legacy com ports to Ethernet to connect to your PC.
Of course there are firmware updates over the Internet.
I think you can transfer files to the FAT32 usb stick if attached to the receiver. Fun for testing the same track from different sources.


I had to install MSXML first:
http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=15697

I was then able to open the MCACC app and transfer the parameters from the receiver to my PC for display:


Now we what they measure and set. Everything is parametric (level, Q, freq) for bass Standing Wave Control: up to three resonant peaks for the sub, center (if set to large) and large L&R speakers

Then a nine band parametric for all channels except the subwoofer.
Theses are the basic settings. The other two tabs are for the advanced expert topics.
I installed MSXML but can't open the app, I keep getting adobe can not open the file
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post #122 of 140 Old 03-04-2013, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hey_hey View Post

SC-63 also adds PC Setup w/Remote Maint
how to get to the sc-63 pc setup
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post #123 of 140 Old 03-05-2013, 04:43 AM
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^^
the PC Setup app is for installers/dealers not owners. owners get the AVNav disc. the PC setup software is so an installer can configure the receiver remotely over the internet. it is password protected which is provided by Pioneer to auth dealers/installers so consumers can't use it.

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post #124 of 140 Old 03-09-2013, 07:15 AM
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^^
as knowledgeable as M Code is (and he is), what he posted is wrong.

First, the new class D3 design has nothing to do with Icepower amps. B&O Ice amps were used in the SC-09, and all succeeding generations from the SC-07 to the SC-37 models. Starting with the 2011 SC-57/55 models, Pioneer switched from Ice amps to chip amps from International Rectifier. Different mfg and different amp design.

Second and most importantly, what he said about the digital signal staying digital through the amps is just plain wrong. DAC's are used from digital sources to the preamp section & the amps start with analog signals. Switch mode class D amps like Ice amps & the IR amps start with analog signals....they just work in a digital fashion by pulsing the power supply at full power each pulse at a very fast frequency, higher than audible range, to simulate the analog waveforms then filter the switching freq out of the output analog signal. this has been the way it works from the Ice amp models to the present ones. there are true digital class D amps but the ones Pioneer uses are not them and never have been.

I have service manuals, block diagrams, spec sheets & info from Icepower, International Rectifier, and Pioneer's own marketing information going all the way back to the 1st Ice amp model, and even Pioneer describes the Ice amp design as switched mode "analog" amps.

there is no such thing as an Ice "processor" in the Icepower amps. I hate to disagree so much with a respected member but I can't let misinformation go.

and circuit block diagrams in Pioneer's service manuals, both the Ice design and current one, show DAC's in the signal path for all dig sources after DSP's and before it hits the preamp section. there is no straight digital > amp path.

if you want real proof, the SC-57/55 & new SC-68 models have selectable digital filters in the DAC's, Pioneer uses descriptions like "soft", "warm" to describe them. I have personally tried them and they do make a slight difference to the sound. If what M Code posted were true, those filters in or alongside the DAC's would make no difference to the sound for dig sources & that is definitely not the case...they do. the DAC's are used for digital sources, trust me smile.gif and the input to the amp section is not directly from the DSP's, it goes thru DAC's 1st just like every other conventional class a/b amp.

the DAC in the SC-68/67 models, at least, is the Asahi AK4480.

does this help? smile.gif
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post #125 of 140 Old 03-09-2013, 07:37 AM
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@ss9001 I don't know (anymore) what to think.
See here and here. Makes me want to tear apart my SC and have a closer look with a scope at what's going on. Then again, it's not worth it, music sounds like crap anyways, so it doesn't really matter to me. Good enough for HT though.
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post #126 of 140 Old 03-09-2013, 07:55 AM
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^^
the term digital amp is commonly used & everyone relates to it...that doesn't mean it works directly with digital signals & doesn't use analog ones....even Icepower said there's were analog amps with switch mode pulse power.

here you go...direct from Pioneer themselves, the circuit block diagram for the SC-57, SC-55, SC-1526 receivers. as you can see the signal path is source >> DSP >> DAC's & digital filters >> preamps >> volume control >> amps. there is NO direct digital path from source to amps, contrary to M Code's post.

Pioneer SC-57_SC-55_SC-1526-k_rrv4195.pdf 96k .pdf file

this is right from the service manual.

these class D amps use analog signals, period, not digital. there is NO other processor in the loop from ICE or anyone else wink.gif

you can choose to accept my information or someone else's, it doesn't matter to me...I know how its supposed to work wink.gifsmile.gif

"crap" with music? well, if you are dissatisfied with it, by all means sell it & move on smile.gif
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Pioneer SC-57_SC-55_SC-1526-k_rrv4195.pdf (95.6 KB, 17 views)

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post #127 of 140 Old 03-09-2013, 08:22 AM
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Thank you.
It does look like everything goes thorough the DAC chips in which case M Code is obviously not right.

As about the "crap" stuff, please don't get me wrong, I didn't intend using it for music nor do I do it. I just tried it out and wrote my very personal opinion.

Do you happen to have access to the SC-6* service manuals? Very curious about what chips they use inside.
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post #128 of 140 Old 03-09-2013, 09:49 AM
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^^
unfortunately no. I have the manuals for the SC-09TX which I still own & the SC-57. I do own the SC-68 but no manual frown.gif I do have (ahem) special literature from Pioneer & verbal confirmation from the head of marketing Pioneer US that the specific amp chips from International Rectifier, DAC's and DSP's in the SC-68/67 & SC-57 are the same. The other SC models I don't have information on.

I'm a Pioneer buff, owned various flagship models for years so have a lot of info on the specific chips, DAC's used. That's why I am confident I am right, besides the service manual. I've done a lot of homework on the previous Ice amps, including figuring out which amp module was used in Pioneer's receivers as well as technical info from B&O Icepower themselves on how their amps work, so again, that's how I know they took analog signals wink.gif

and again, there are true digital amps where the amp takes a digital input but this was never the case with Pioneer's designs. I have no idea how M Code came up with the ideas he did but there was not an Ice "processor" per se. Icepower amps, no matter who the OEM is, take an analog waveform and use a switching power pulse at a high sampling frequency to sample the analog waveform and an elaborate filter removes the sampling frequency so that it doesn't "pollute" the audible part of the output signal and that becomes its output. the final output is analog to drive the speakers but instead of a exact duplicate of the preamp signal at a higher voltage, it's a power curve that was derived from a continuous series of full on/full off power pulses. in that regard it behaves similar to digital audio, CD's etc. because of the discrete stepped nature power is provided, full on or off. and that's why class D amps mostly get described as "digital" amps. there are even class D amps with conventional linear non-switching power supplies, although Icepower amps formerly used by Pioneer & the new IR amp chips have switch mode power supplies (SMPS). He was even wrong in referring to the new receivers as Ice based - they are not. Pioneer stopped using B&O Ice amps with the 2011 SC models. one of the differences is Ice amps used a sampling rate for the power pulsing of about 50-60 Khz while the current IR amps are about 10X that, about 500Khz. in theory, with 10X the power pulsing rate, that could make the output waveform more closely resemble the analog preamp input and more analog-like. it's also doesn't require the complex feedback loop that Ice amps use to sound good so are a simpler circuit design. Pioneer even marketed this when they made the change...

Here's information straight from International Rectifier on their MOSFET output class D amps (what Pioneer calls their "class D3")

"Class D – This class of amplifier is a switching or PWM amplifier as mentioned above. This class of amplifier is the main focus of this application note. In this type of amplifier, the switches are either fully on or fully off, significantly reducing the power losses in the output devices. Efficiencies of 90-95% are possible. The audio signal is used to modulate a PWM carrier signal which drives the output devices (MOSFET transisters - added comment by me) with the last stage being a low pass filter to remove the high frequency PWM carrier frequency. From the above amplifier classifications, classes A, B and AB are all what is termed linear amplifiers. We will discuss the differences between Linear and Class D amplifiers in the next section. The block diagram of a linear amplifier is shown below in fig 1. In a linear amplifier the signals always remain in the analog domain, and the output transistors act as linear regulators to modulate the output voltage. This results in a voltage drop across the output devices, which reduces efficiency. Class D amplifiers take on many different forms, some can have digital inputs and some can have analog inputs. Here we will focus on the type which have analog inputs." (bold is mine)

additionally, every OEM that builds amps with Icepower modules, has ANALOG inputs: Wyred4Sound, D-Sonic, Bel Canto, all use Icepower amp boards and all have analog inputs just like any conventional class A/B amp. and none of them have digital inputs.

if you go back to the SC-57 thread, someone figured out the specific chip model # for the amp. I have several pieces of IR literature but am not sure at this point which specific chip Pioneer uses in the SC-57/68. I'd have to root around the circuit board schematics smile.gif I can do this later if you are seriously interested but this may or may not apply to the SC-61.
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post #129 of 140 Old 03-09-2013, 09:56 AM
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I have the SC-LX76 which is supposed to be the same like SC-67 minus the Elite badge, which I'll probably open up some day for good. Or maybe not, maybe I'll open up the SC-LX77 wink.gif
It looks like the new 2013 models are starting to show up, I'm curious what they'll bring out this time. Any ideas?
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post #130 of 140 Old 03-09-2013, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

^^
unfortunately no. I have the manuals for the SC-09TX which I still own & the SC-57. I do own the SC-68 but no manual frown.gif I do have (ahem) special literature from Pioneer & verbal confirmation from the head of marketing Pioneer US that the specific amp chips from International Rectifier, DAC's and DSP's in the SC-68/67 & SC-57 are the same. The other SC models I don't have information on.

I'm a Pioneer buff, owned various flagship models for years so have a lot of info on the specific chips, DAC's used. That's why I am confident I am right, besides the service manual. I've done a lot of homework on the previous Ice amps, including figuring out which amp module was used in Pioneer's receivers as well as technical info from B&O Icepower themselves on how their amps work, so again, that's how I know they took analog signals wink.gif

and again, there are true digital amps where the amp takes a digital input but this was never the case with Pioneer's designs. I have no idea how M Code came up with the ideas he did but there was not an Ice "processor" per se. Icepower amps, no matter who the OEM is, take an analog waveform and use a switching power pulse at a high sampling frequency to sample the analog waveform and an elaborate filter removes the sampling frequency so that it doesn't "pollute" the audible part of the output signal and that becomes its output. the final output is analog to drive the speakers but instead of a exact duplicate of the preamp signal at a higher voltage, it's a power curve that was derived from a continuous series of full on/full off power pulses. in that regard it behaves similar to digital audio, CD's etc. because of the discrete stepped nature power is provided, full on or off. and that's why class D amps mostly get described as "digital" amps. there are even class D amps with conventional linear non-switching power supplies, although Icepower amps formerly used by Pioneer & the new IR amp chips have switch mode power supplies (SMPS). He was even wrong in referring to the new receivers as Ice based - they are not. Pioneer stopped using B&O Ice amps with the 2011 SC models. one of the differences is Ice amps used a sampling rate for the power pulsing of about 50-60 Khz while the current IR amps are about 10X that, about 500Khz. in theory, with 10X the power pulsing rate, that could make the output waveform more closely resemble the analog preamp input and more analog-like. it's also doesn't require the complex feedback loop that Ice amps use to sound good so are a simpler circuit design. Pioneer even marketed this when they made the change...

Here's information straight from International Rectifier on their MOSFET output class D amps (what Pioneer calls their "class D3")

"Class D – This class of amplifier is a switching or PWM amplifier as mentioned above. This class of amplifier is the main focus of this application note. In this type of amplifier, the switches are either fully on or fully off, significantly reducing the power losses in the output devices. Efficiencies of 90-95% are possible. The audio signal is used to modulate a PWM carrier signal which drives the output devices (MOSFET transisters - added comment by me) with the last stage being a low pass filter to remove the high frequency PWM carrier frequency. From the above amplifier classifications, classes A, B and AB are all what is termed linear amplifiers. We will discuss the differences between Linear and Class D amplifiers in the next section. The block diagram of a linear amplifier is shown below in fig 1. In a linear amplifier the signals always remain in the analog domain, and the output transistors act as linear regulators to modulate the output voltage. This results in a voltage drop across the output devices, which reduces efficiency. Class D amplifiers take on many different forms, some can have digital inputs and some can have analog inputs. Here we will focus on the type which have analog inputs." (bold is mine)

additionally, every OEM that builds amps with Icepower modules, has ANALOG inputs: Wyred4Sound, D-Sonic, Bel Canto, all use Icepower amp boards and all have analog inputs just like any conventional class A/B amp. and none of them have digital inputs.

if you go back to the SC-57 thread, someone figured out the specific chip model # for the amp. I have several pieces of IR literature but am not sure at this point which specific chip Pioneer uses in the SC-57/68. I'd have to root around the circuit board schematics smile.gif I can do this later if you are seriously interested but this may or may not apply to the SC-61.

You have some inaccuracies in the posted info..

Internation Rectifier (IR) makes multiple silicon devices for industrial, auto and consumer audio applications, for audio they supply driver ICs and outputs. The majority of the higher powered, quality Class D solutions available today (whether ICE, IR, D2, Zetex..) for the outputs use the IR Hex-Fet devices, as they are the best FETs for performance and cost. However, for the audio drivers they may use TI, Intersil, IR..

The IR design team is located in El Segundo, CA just next to LAX, note that Pioneer is just down the 405 freeway in Long Beach so you can see the local connection. Also Alpine (located in Torrance) has used the IR Hex-Fets in their 12V auto amplifiers both OE and aftermarket applications. The IR team is headed by Jun Honda, and we have worked with Jun on a number of audio products using the IR Class D components over the last few years. Jun is a wealth of information/experience for Class D solutions and has written alot of supporting documentation.
The below link is a good start for Class D basic info written by Jun..

http://www.irf.com/product-info/audio/classdtutorial.pdf

Just my $0.02.. wink.gif
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post #131 of 140 Old 03-09-2013, 11:24 AM
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M Code, how about your claims on the higher Elite models using digital class D amps (where the signal doesn't first go through the DACs)??
Are they accurate?
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post #132 of 140 Old 03-09-2013, 11:35 AM
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OT: I used to work across the street from IR and lived in El Segundo. Didn't know there was a Pioneer design team nearby, however, interesting.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #133 of 140 Old 03-09-2013, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

OT: I used to work across the street from IR and lived in El Segundo. Didn't know there was a Pioneer design team nearby, however, interesting.

Only small tech team in Long Beach, larger, primary team in Meguro, Japan. Also many were not aware that ICE had a design team in San Diego...

Just my $0.02... wink.gif
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post #134 of 140 Old 03-09-2013, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post


http://www.irf.com/product-info/audio/classdtutorial.pdf

Just my $0.02.. wink.gif

I downloaded that paper, M Code, when the SC-57 first came out and browsed thru it and other literature from them, thanks smile.gif including product data sheets and tech bulletins. same with Ice amps.

and I still don't think you are right about an Ice "processor" being in the loop taking a digital signal, processing it directly by the amp. the circuit schematics clearly show that DAC's ARE in the signal path BEFORE the amp section & there is NO bypass around them to the amps. you may know a lot of details about the specifics of the relationships between IR & Pioneer but that doesn't mean you were correct in your post in Sept 2012 about how Ice amps worked in the Pioneer design which isn't relevant anyway to the IR amp design Pioneer uses now. sorry....I respect you & your posts greatly and it weren't for this new poster dredging up your old post, I wouldn't have seen it now or decided to respond. I may not know nearly as much as you about how & where Pioneer sources its designs or which Chinese company it uses as an OEM to build them, but facts about the signal path are facts. maybe he & I have misinterpreted what you stated?

that said, I don't proclaim to be able to explain exactly how the class D amp design works in as elegant way as the mfg themselves as you claim I have some inaccuracies. but I do have the facts as to how the circuit design is laid out and I stand by what I stated...these amps, both Icepower & IR designs, use analog signals FROM the DAC's, not bypassing them as you stated. I have both the service manuals from the Ice amp SC-09TX and the SC-57 and know how to read a block diagram wink.gif

Going back to the Ice amp design, both Pioneer AND Icepower described them as analog switch mode amps. plus, if I have interpreted your statement correctly, that doesn't make sense to me either....if no DAC was needed for a digital amp, why even have them there in the 1st place? what would be needed for all analog signals would be ADC's not DAC's. and the only ADC's that exist are in the 2 channel analog inputs for converting them to digital for DSP digital processing (MCACC, surround modes, etc). and there are NO ADC's in the multichannel analog inputs at all...they've been deleted several generations ago, so how do they get amplified in your described way?? they can't. and clearly, they are wink.gif

further, if it worked the way you described in Sept 2012 post, why would Pioneer bother to put a special DAC in the SC-68 for the USB input with a special driver for async USB transfer....just a straight path from the PC input to the DSP to the amp would be all that was needed rolleyes.gif nope, it can't work the way you described...sorry. if it did, the DAC's would somehow follow the "digital" amps for final conversion to analog to drive speakers, but they are clearly before the amps, in fact before the preamp section itself.

since you posted a link for me & others on the IR amps, you might want to take a look at the circuit diagrams from the Pioneer service manuals wink.gif I can post the diagrams for the Ice amp SC-09 if you'd like, also.

people who know my posting history know when someone shows I'm wrong, I'll admit it and thank them. I may be wrong from time to time, but in this case, if I am, please show me smile.gif I am not posting this to get into a debate or pissing contest with you or anyone else, I'm just looking to provide a generalized, factual explanation to a poster on the way it works.

and if a poster is just trying to stir up a debate to have some fun (troll?) shame on him frown.gif

either way, I responded with information at my disposal and I'm done smile.gif I'm not interested in a protracted argument. the OP can accept what he's been given or not, but now it seems to me that challenging you several posts ago for a reply on your "claim" somewhat strikes me as maybe trying too hard to provoke a response or debate & I won't play that game either if that's the intent smile.gif

peace, my man smile.gif
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post #135 of 140 Old 03-09-2013, 01:44 PM
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Here's to confirm that the better 3 Elites use the AK4480 DAC chips:
http://pioneer.jp/support/catalog/pdf/High_Grade_20120820.pdf
http://www.pioneer-twn.com.tw/db/UploadFiles/Pioneer%20SC-LX56%20210.pdf

SC-LX56 is SC-65
SC-LX76 is SC-67
SC-LX86 is SC-68

The SC-2022 (which must be SC-63 and maybe 61) along with the 3 above use what appears to be basically the same amps (as seen, some of the major difference seems to be the number and size of capacitors).

As about M Code, he can skip some certain questions, especially those embarrassing to him.
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post #136 of 140 Old 03-09-2013, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

and if a poster is just trying to stir up a debate to have some fun (troll?) shame on him frown.gif

I am not, I was browsing and reading about these receivers since I got one this week as well (as written, an LX76).
I was curious what the people write about the line, the amps inside, DAC and what not.
As I read the post from M Code something felt fishy, so I registered just to reply to his post. Anyway, disinformation is very very wrong and it should be corrected. My position is that if I don't know about something I shut up, instead of making up things. At the very least, I'll correct myself if I am to find out I was wrong about something (nobody's perfect in the end).
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post #137 of 140 Old 10-16-2013, 05:54 PM
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how much space around the receiver do you need to keep it cool? I guess putting it in the middle of a rack is out of the question. How is everyone mounting theirs in the racks? i have the pioneer VSX 03 Elite and its on one of my shelves on a Sanus rack..thanks in advance..

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post #138 of 140 Old 10-17-2013, 07:51 AM
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how much clearance do these receivers need? Top is the important measurement thanks in advance

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post #139 of 140 Old 10-17-2013, 07:59 AM
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^
I have the SC-09TX (original monster Ice amp receiver) and SC-68. for both I leave about 9-10" on top, open front (no solid doors), and about 1.5-2" on left & right sides for fan intake & ventilation (amp section fan intakes are on the left side as you face the front of the unit). the most important is the top since that is the primary exhaust and the video processing/HDMI circuit board is located under the top and it generates the most heat other than the amps.

the tops can get quite warm under long, heavy loads, like an action movie with extended explosions, gunshots, special effects. for music, IME, the tops don't get quite as hot as with movies (no video).

you can probably get by with less top but the distance I gave you works for me with no thermal shutdowns. I wouldn't try an inch or 2 of space and probably allow at least 5-6".

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post #140 of 140 Old 01-03-2014, 06:36 AM
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Does anyone know if the SC-61 can handle 3D content from the 3D BD to the 3D TV?

 

Thanks

Lucky

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