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post #181 of 218 Old 11-01-2013, 11:58 AM
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LOL.

The point was the information about deciphering different ways sensitivity specs are provided and how to interpret them relative to each other. Not to nit pick Stereophile vs. Harmon measurements. Harmon picked their number based of their test methodology and that's what I used. It's no more, no less than that.

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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post #182 of 218 Old 11-02-2013, 05:33 AM
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I liked my Yamaha RX-V2700 AVR that powered five B&W CM7/CMC/CM1 a lot. But swapping it for a UMC-1 (bought for the Upgrade Certificate, intended to sell it on) plus the XPR-5 (bought for the ever ongoing HT-build/plans elsewhere) made a surprisingly big jump in SQ. I believe the power of the XPR-5 is a big help. The little CMC center speaker actually sounds good now (I intended to swap that one out for the larger center not available first but didn't get to it). Admittedly it's only 84 dB sensitive, but we sit close @ less than 8 ft. I ended up selling the old AVR. If the XPR-5 ever makes it to the HT, I will however replace it with a XPA-5. Even bought a second Upgrade Certificate because I want to have the next generation processors in both our homes.

Also, the Atmos™ equipped cinema in The Netherlands where we experienced The Hobbit last winter, claims to have 94.000 Watt available as where a standard movie theatre has 7.000 Watt. I guestimated about 48 speaker positions in that medium sized space. It played loud, but without distortion. That headroom IMO is a huge part of the perceived SQ. This was a total new build, mind you. I need want to see Gravity there, in order to get my Atmos™ fix, but my decisive other half is opposed to the 90 minutes drive towards JT Vlaardingen near Rotterdam. Bugger!

In the end, there might be no substitute for cubic inches... whether it comes as liters or Watts.

Building a HT with 7.2.4 layout and ◤SEOS-24◥ LCR.
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post #183 of 218 Old 11-05-2013, 09:05 AM
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First off, thank you whoaru99 and RichB for the clarification on the Harman sensitivity spec.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

The AV8801 THX preamp uses 0 as reference and a negative scale.

You seem to be using the term Reference to indicate THX reference 85 DB plus 20DB headroom.
That should not be confused with 0 in a negative scale AVR/Preamp.

- Rich

0 on the MV using the negative scale is the same as THX Reference 85dBs. -1 on the MV would indicate -1dBs from THX Reference or 84dBs. What do you think 0 on your AV8801 designates?
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Since I have not provided the distance and room size, you cannot possibly compute how much volume I obtain.
I said that if I were listening to 2 watts with 20 DB headroom, it would require 200 watts.
- Rich

I never computed anything about your system. You stated that a grand piano can hit 106dB and it takes your system 200W to do so. It was you you stated those numbers, not me. All I said is that if it takes 200W for your system to reach reference and your 600W amp is clipping then something is wrong. At -6 on your MV you should be only drawing ~50W peak based on your stated 200W for 106dB. If even 50W is causing your amps clip lights to come on intermittently I personally would suspect something is wrong or your numbers are off.

Recalculating based on the numbers you and whoaru99 provided, I see that it would take ~250W to reach reference at 1m. I can't imagine anyone sitting only 1m from the Salon2s so at 2m that number goes up to 500W which is more in line with causing your clip lights to come on as I would guess even 2m is probably even too close to be sitting from the Salon2s. Based on those numbers, I sure am glad I have the XPR-5 driving my Salon2s as I'm over 2m from my speakers.
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post #184 of 218 Old 11-05-2013, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duc135 View Post

First off, thank you whoaru99 and RichB for the clarification on the Harman sensitivity spec.
0 on the MV using the negative scale is the same as THX Reference 85dBs. -1 on the MV would indicate -1dBs from THX Reference or 84dBs. What do you think 0 on your AV8801 designates?

I do not know, it has a positive scale and a negative scale.
If you set it to negative it goes past 0 to +18.
However, if you set a -10 DB volume limit, it only allows you to get to -10.
Unless the scale shifts, then -10 reduces the gain by 29 DB. That makes no sense.
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I never computed anything about your system. You stated that a grand piano can hit 106dB and it takes your system 200W to do so. It was you you stated those numbers, not me. All I said is that if it takes 200W for your system to reach reference and your 600W amp is clipping then something is wrong. At -6 on your MV you should be only drawing ~50W peak based on your stated 200W for 106dB. If even 50W is causing your amps clip lights to come on intermittently I personally would suspect something is wrong or your numbers are off.

A 5 DB peak at that level would clip that amp. If you cannot amplify the peak, it clips.
The power is not produced and at some point you hear distortion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by duc135 View Post

Recalculating based on the numbers you and whoaru99 provided, I see that it would take ~250W to reach reference at 1m. I can't imagine anyone sitting only 1m from the Salon2s so at 2m that number goes up to 500W which is more in line with causing your clip lights to come on as I would guess even 2m is probably even too close to be sitting from the Salon2s. Based on those numbers, I sure am glad I have the XPR-5 driving my Salon2s as I'm over 2m from my speakers.

These are really loud volumes which I like for the occasional binge tongue.gif
It does not hurt to have the power when you get loud it goes fast.

- Rich

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post #185 of 218 Old 11-09-2013, 12:01 PM
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If the system is calibrated then 0dB setting of the volume control should reflect calibrated (reference?) level at the spot where the calibration mic was. Or, in the case of multipoint calibration somewhere about the center of the group, presumably.

If one sets a -10dB volume limit then you'd be going no higher than 10dB below calibrated level / 0dB. Of course, if the source material/input signal is stronger or weaker than what was used for calibration, the absolute level will no longer be calibrated to the reference, but would still be relative (10dB less than what ever 0dB is).

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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post #186 of 218 Old 11-09-2013, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

I do not know, it has a positive scale and a negative scale.
If you set it to negative it goes past 0 to +18.
However, if you set a -10 DB volume limit, it only allows you to get to -10.
Unless the scale shifts, then -10 reduces the gain by 29 DB. That makes no sense.
- Rich

On a positive scale 85 is reference. If you you turn the dial to 60 that means you're getting 60dBs from your speakers from a calibrated tone. On the negative scale 0 is reference. If you set the MV to -25 then you are getting 60dBs from your speakers using a calibrated tone. So if you are using a negative scale and set your MV to +18 then you are 18dBs over reference or 103dBs with peaks of 123dBs. The volume limits you set on your receiver are only that, volume limits. They have no bearing on calibration. This is useful if you have little ones or a system is not capable of hitting reference without damage. If you set the volume limit to -10 in your receiver setup it will not allow you to turn the volume up past -10 thereby protecting your system from potential damage by unknowing people. It does nothing to reduce the gain. It just limits it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

A 5 DB peak at that level would clip that amp. If you cannot amplify the peak, it clips.
The power is not produced and at some point you hear distortion.

- Rich

Agreed. A 5dB peak from 106dB will clip our amps, but that is not what you said. You said at -6 on your MV you are starting to clip your amp. According to your numbers (200W @106dBs) a reduction of 6dB (-6dB on your MV) would reduce your power requirements by 75%. So given that, you are using only 50W at -6 on your MV. If 50W is clipping your 600W amp there is something wrong somewhere. Again, I'm only going off the numbers you provided. I am not telling you what you are actually using based on what I think you are using.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

If the system is calibrated then 0dB setting of the volume control should reflect calibrated (reference?) level at the spot where the calibration mic was. Or, in the case of multipoint calibration somewhere about the center of the group, presumably.

Regardless of how many points of measurement and where, the system volume calibration is based on only the first microphone position. That is why it is placed at the MLP. That first microphone position determines speaker distances and individual channel trims to obtain reference levels. The remaining positions are used only for EQ calibration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

If one sets a -10dB volume limit then you'd be going no higher than 10dB below calibrated level / 0dB. Of course, if the source material/input signal is stronger or weaker than what was used for calibration, the absolute level will no longer be calibrated to the reference, but would still be relative (10dB less than what ever 0dB is).

+1
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post #187 of 218 Old 11-09-2013, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duc135 View Post

Agreed. A 5dB peak from 106dB will clip our amps, but that is not what you said. You said at -6 on your MV you are starting to clip your amp. According to your numbers (200W @106dBs) a reduction of 6dB (-6dB on your MV) would reduce your power requirements by 75%. So given that, you are using only 50W at -6 on your MV. If 50W is clipping your 600W amp there is something wrong somewhere. Again, I'm only going off the numbers you provided. I am not telling you what you are actually using based on what I think you are using.
+1

One example to illustrate clipping was my the AV8801/ATI3005 driving my Revel Salons. I could illuminate the clip indicators playing Surfacing by Sarah McLachlan.
They began to illuminate at -6, were on about 50% of the -3, and were mostly on at 0.
There was no awful clipping at -6 and I heard nothing to indicate that the amp was clipping.
If there were no indicators, I would not know that it was clipping the amp.
Of course, with less powerful amps, this clipping would occur as well. It would be loud and sound good, but I would be clipping and compressing the sound.

Some amps advertise "Soft Clipping" which to me indicates a product that compresses to avoid distortion.


- Rich

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post #188 of 218 Old 11-09-2013, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

One example to illustrate clipping was my the AV8801/ATI3005 driving my Revel Salons. I could illuminate the clip indicators playing Surfacing by Sarah McLachlan.
They began to illuminate at -6, were on about 50% of the -3, and were mostly on at 0.
There was no awful clipping at -6 and I heard nothing to indicate that the amp was clipping.
If there were no indicators, I would not know that it was clipping the amp.
Of course, with less powerful amps, this clipping would occur as well. It would be loud and sound good, but I would be clipping and compressing the sound.

Some amps advertise "Soft Clipping" which to me indicates a product that compresses to avoid distortion.


- Rich

I understand soft and hard clipping fairly well. I'm not talking about the merits or how it works. All I'm saying is that if the numbers you provided are true, something is wrong if a 600W amp is clipping at 50W, soft or otherwise. That's like saying a 600HP sports car's rev limiter is kicking in when the car is only going at a steady 20MPH. Sure, you can say the rev limiter is doing its job to protect the engine from blowing up, but there is something seriously wrong if that limiter is kicking in at only 8% of its potential. Would you still stand behind that car and say that's the way it's supposed to work? I would think not. I can understand if the amp starts soft clipping at 400W - 500W, but not at a mere 50W.
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post #189 of 218 Old 11-09-2013, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duc135 View Post

I understand soft and hard clipping fairly well. I'm not talking about the merits or how it works. All I'm saying is that if the numbers you provided are true, something is wrong if a 600W amp is clipping at 50W, soft or otherwise. That's like saying a 600HP sports car's rev limiter is kicking in when the car is only going at a steady 20MPH. Sure, you can say the rev limiter is doing its job to protect the engine from blowing up, but there is something seriously wrong if that limiter is kicking in at only 8% of its potential. Would you still stand behind that car and say that's the way it's supposed to work? I would think not. I can understand if the amp starts soft clipping at 400W - 500W, but not at a mere 50W.

I have completely lost track of what you are talking about.
An amp clips when it hits a peak that it does not have the power to product.
Finding the right sized amp is the trick.

What numbers are you referring to?

- Rich

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post #190 of 218 Old 11-09-2013, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

I have completely lost track of what you are talking about.
An amp clips when it hits a peak that it does not have the power to product.
Finding the right sized amp is the trick.

- Rich

I was talking about your setup and why either there is a problem with your setup or your numbers. I merely was stating I know what clipping is and how it works. If your 600W amp is clipping when only asked to push 50W then there is an issue somewhere whether you choose to believe it or not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

What numbers are you referring to?

- Rich

I was referring to these numbers you stated:
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

A grand piano can produce 106DB.the revels are essentially 4 ohm, so in my room that would be 2 watts, to hit 106DB requires 20X power.
This is about 200 watts.
- Rich

Here you just claimed that in your room it takes about 200W to hit 106dBs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

At -6 DB and the ATI3005/Salons clip indicators have come on. At -3, they have been on half the time.
At 0, they are on most of the time. In all, it is too damn loud for me.
- Rich

Here you state that at -6 on your MV the clip lights begin to flicker. If it takes 200W to hit 106dBs which is +1dBS over reference peaks then at -6 on the MV that would be 100dBs. For every 3dBs increase in volume is a doubling of power requirement. So a reduction in -3dBs is a halving of power. As you stated that it takes 200W to achieve 106dBS then it would only take 100W to achieve 103dBs. Reduce that by 3dBs and that is another halving of power requirements. Now you are down to 50W. Those are the numbers. At -6 on your MV your amp is pushing 50W to your speakers. If a 600W amp is clipping pushing 50W there is something wrong. Keep in mind those are all peak numbers not sustained either as I highly doubt anyone is really listening at a sustained 100dBs.
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post #191 of 218 Old 11-09-2013, 05:53 PM
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Could be the speakers clipping...

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #192 of 218 Old 11-09-2013, 06:22 PM
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Actually, what I was saying is that it takes 2 watts in my room to achieve 86 DB according to the measurements published in the Stereophile review.
So to hit 106DB is 20 DB more. 20 DB requires 100 times the power, so that would be 200 watts.
If you have a good idea of your loudness desires, the efficiency of you speakers, your room size, you should be able to compute the power needed to avoid clipping.

The Surfacing album example would did not clip the ATI3005 until -6.
I provided this as a real world example.
It was as loud as I would want to go and there is no way I would turn it up to 0.
If I did, I would certainly be clipping that amp and I am sure I would be clipping the A51.
I feel safe up to -10 with the A51 and it is plenty loud.

There is nothing wrong with my equipment.

- Rich

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post #193 of 218 Old 11-09-2013, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Actually, what I was saying is that it takes 2 watts in my room to achieve 86 DB according to the measurements published in the Stereophile review.
So to hit 106DB is 20 DB more. 20 DB requires 100 times the power, so that would be 400 watts.
- Rich

That is not at all what you said. This is what you said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

A grand piano can produce 106DB.the revels are essentially 4 ohm, so in my room that would be 2 watts, to hit 106DB requires 20X power.
This is about 200 watts.

- Rich

Your math is all over the place. 20x the power of 2W is 40W, not 200W (2 x 20 = 40). 100x the power of 2W is 200W not 400W (2 x 100 = 200). A 20dBS headroom as specified by THX reference standard requires approximately 128x the power not 20x nor 100x.

Ok let's do the math if your speaker require 2W to achieve 86dBs then to reach 105dBs you will need 256W not 400W since every 3dBs increase doubles the power requirement. Look at the below table I've created for you:

86dBS = 2W
89dBS = 4W
92dBs = 8W
95dBs = 16W
98dBS = 32W
101dBs = 64W
104dBs = 128W
107dBS = 256W
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

If you have a good idea of your loudness desires, the efficiency of you speakers, your room size, you should be able to compute the power needed to avoid clipping.

- Rich

Now you know the actual numbers and you won't need to compute the power needed to avoid clipping. wink.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

The Surfacing album example would did not clip the ATI3005 until -6.
I provided this as a real world example.
It was as loud as I would want to go and there is no way I would turn it up to 0.
If I did, I would certainly be clipping that amp and I am sure I would be clipping the A51.
I feel safe up to -10 with the A51 and it is plenty loud.

There is nothing wrong with my equipment.

- Rich

So at -6 you are looking at 101dBs peak according to the table above. So you're saying that there is nothing wrong with a 600W amp that clips while pushing 64W? That's less than 11% of its rated power.

That being said, I'm guessing that your original number about what you are drawing is off. 86dBs @ 2W is at a 1m distance. I'm assuming your are sitting a little further away from you Salons than 3.3'. Power requirement doubles for every 1m increase beyond 1m. So here is the modified table based on a 3m distance from the speakers.

86dBS = 8W
89dBS = 16W
92dBs = 32W
95dBs = 64W
98dBS = 128W
101dBs = 256W
104dBs = 512W
107dBS = 1024W

Now it starts looking more reasonable that your amps are starting to clip at -6 on the MV. Like I said, either there is a problem with your setup or your numbers are off.
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post #194 of 218 Old 11-10-2013, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duc135 View Post

That is not at all what you said. This is what you said:
Your math is all over the place. 20x the power of 2W is 40W, not 200W (2 x 20 = 40). 100x the power of 2W is 200W not 400W (2 x 100 = 200). A 20dBS headroom as specified by THX reference standard requires approximately 128x the power not 20x nor 100x.

Ok let's do the math if your speaker require 2W to achieve 86dBs then to reach 105dBs you will need 256W not 400W since every 3dBs increase doubles the power requirement. Look at the below table I've created for you:

86dBS = 2W
89dBS = 4W
92dBs = 8W
95dBs = 16W
98dBS = 32W
101dBs = 64W
104dBs = 128W
107dBS = 256W
Now you know the actual numbers and you won't need to compute the power needed to avoid clipping. wink.gif
So at -6 you are looking at 101dBs peak according to the table above. So you're saying that there is nothing wrong with a 600W amp that clips while pushing 64W? That's less than 11% of its rated power.

That being said, I'm guessing that your original number about what you are drawing is off. 86dBs @ 2W is at a 1m distance. I'm assuming your are sitting a little further away from you Salons than 3.3'. Power requirement doubles for every 1m increase beyond 1m. So here is the modified table based on a 3m distance from the speakers.

86dBS = 8W
89dBS = 16W
92dBs = 32W
95dBs = 64W
98dBS = 128W
101dBs = 256W
104dBs = 512W
107dBS = 1024W

Now it starts looking more reasonable that your amps are starting to clip at -6 on the MV. Like I said, either there is a problem with your setup or your numbers are off.

Actually, I was hastily replying as I was running out the door.
I meant 20 DB requires 100 times the power.

I do not disagree with any of these tables. I used the conservative 2 watts for 86 DB because there are room size and stereo speakers.
If I plug these values into the Crown Amplifier Power Request Calculator:

Distance: 3 meters
Desired listening levels: 86
Efficiency: 83 (I knocked it down 3Db since Salons since they are basically 4 ohm speakers)
Headroom: 0
Required Amplifier power = 18 watts

Which is even more than your last table.
I have never been sure why anyone would doubt that approaching 0 reference volume with a Speaker like the Salons would clip most amps, even one as powerful at the ATI3005.

My main point is that you can clip these amps before hitting the reference of 0 and the resulting compression is not easily detected.
I do not mind limiting my volume to -10 for music because that very loud.

This morning, I setup my OmniMic 2 to measure the volume while watching "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade" with myRevel 5.1 system. Salons, Voice, Studios.
I turned off the Sub.

Normally, I would listen to a movie like this with the AV8801 at 54 (-34) but I decided to go a bit louder to 60 (-28).
During reasonably quiet scenes the reading at my seat (10 feet) was in the 60's.
Loud conversations would rise into to 70's.
Loud Action scenes rose into the 80's (barely)
The peak measured 104. In either table, that is loud.

To me this suggests that THX specs are reasonable for my use. 105 DB (excluding the .1 bass) is all I need for me to enjoy an action movie.
However, for most of the film the amps is cruising down in the 20 to 50 watt range.
At peak volume, pick your table, but It would be likely over 200 watts.
The 86 DB average seems high though because that is quite loud.

- Rich

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post #195 of 218 Old 11-10-2013, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

I have never been sure why anyone would doubt that approaching 0 reference volume with a Speaker like the Salons would clip most amps, even one as powerful at the ATI3005.

- Rich

I don't think that's been the doubt in anyone's mind.

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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post #196 of 218 Old 11-10-2013, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Actually, I was hastily replying as I was running out the door.
I meant 20 DB requires 100 times the power.

- Rich

Now we're starting to come to agreement. This is good. We're making progress.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

I do not disagree with any of these tables. I used the conservative 2 watts for 86 DB because there are room size and stereo speakers.
If I plug these values into the Crown Amplifier Power Request Calculator:

Distance: 3 meters
Desired listening levels: 86
Efficiency: 83 (I knocked it down 3Db since Salons since they are basically 4 ohm speakers)
Headroom: 0
Required Amplifier power = 18 watts

Which is even more than your last table.

- Rich

83dBS/1W/1m is the same as 86dBs/2W/1m so my tables are not incorrect. You just need to add 83dBS to the top of the list. I started at 86dBs since that's the number you stated. The Crown calculator uses the actual equation. My table is more of a ballpark. Both of us are ignoring possible boundary gains.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

I have never been sure why anyone would doubt that approaching 0 reference volume with a Speaker like the Salons would clip most amps, even one as powerful at the ATI3005.

- Rich

I don't recall anyone doubted that. It was just me really, but I wasn't doubting the Salons can clip a powerful amp, I was questioning your numbers. So based on the insufficient data presented, regardless of what speaker it is, the numbers did not add up. If the numbers were accurate, then the problem existed in your setup. Now that we've cleared that up we can see that there is not an issue with your setup, but one of missing data.
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My main point is that you can clip these amps before hitting the reference of 0 and the resulting compression is not easily detected.
I do not mind limiting my volume to -10 for music because that very loud.

This morning, I setup my OmniMic 2 to measure the volume while watching "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade" with myRevel 5.1 system. Salons, Voice, Studios.
I turned off the Sub.

Normally, I would listen to a movie like this with the AV8801 at 54 (-34) but I decided to go a bit louder to 60 (-28).
During reasonably quiet scenes the reading at my seat (10 feet) was in the 60's.
Loud conversations would rise into to 70's.
Loud Action scenes rose into the 80's (barely)
The peak measured 104. In either table, that is loud.

To me this suggests that THX specs are reasonable for my use. 105 DB (excluding the .1 bass) is all I need for me to enjoy an action movie.
However, for most of the film the amps is cruising down in the 20 to 50 watt range.
At peak volume, pick your table, but It would be likely over 200 watts.
The 86 DB average seems high though because that is quite loud.

- Rich

Agreed on all points.
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post #197 of 218 Old 11-10-2013, 02:16 PM
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I have been attempting to provide data to help folks get a handle on how much power they actually need.
Sorry for the occasional typos gentlemen. The overriding point I wanted to make here is that Peak Volume is much larger than many realize.

I am not sure how much relevance the actual position on a volume know relates as the number is not a great indicator of power requirements for amps.
Most amps will obviously clip at 0 with speakers like mine that are in reality 2 watts for 86 DB into 4 ohms.

Moving right along with deference to the more learned among us here are some measurements in my room.
It is decent sized. 15x33 with 12' peaks. There is a 16 foot opening on the size and a 5 foot opening in the rear.
The signal path was: BDP-105 UDB DAC 7.1 Analog outs -> AV8801 Pure Direct Speakers set to large -> Parasound A51 amp -> Revel Salons.

The albums were: Sarah McLachlan Surfacing and Freedom Sessions and The House of Flying Daggers:
All measurements were taken with the OmniMIC 2 and a Radio Shack digital SPL meter.

SPL test.xlsx 9k .xlsx file

The minimum difference between the Radio Shack (Fast C-Weighted) measurement and the Peak measured by the OminMic was 12 DB.
If my math is right this time, that would be 20 times the power you would calculate with rom room measurements with a Radio Shack meter.

Also, not that with the volume at -10, the peak volume at 12 feet hit 107 DB.

- Rich
Attached Files
File Type: xlsx SPL test.xlsx (8.9 KB, 6 views)

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post #198 of 218 Old 11-10-2013, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

I am not sure how much relevance the actual position on a volume know relates as the number is not a great indicator of power requirements for amps.

- Rich

On a properly calibrated system the MV reading tells us what we need to know in terms of power requirements. Well, that along with speaker sensitivity and listening distance. For example, if someone states they never listen beyond -15 on their calibrated system then they will need less power than say someone who listens at reference all other things being the same. So in this case, there would be no need to buy an amp capable of reference if it's not needed. All that being said, I would still recommend an amp that IS capable of clean power at reference.

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Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Moving right along with deference to the more learned among us here are some measurements in my room.
It is decent sized. 15x33 with 12' peaks. There is a 16 foot opening on the size and a 5 foot opening in the rear.

- Rich

When it comes to satellite speakers you missed a critical measurement, listening position distance from the speakers. That's where our confusion started. Room dimensions are more useful for calculating listening room volume and subwoofer system requirements to properly pressurize that space.

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Also, not that with the volume at -10, the peak volume at 12 feet hit 107 DB.

- Rich

Is that with or without subs?
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post #199 of 218 Old 11-10-2013, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duc135 View Post

On a properly calibrated system the MV reading tells us what we need to know in terms of power requirements. Well, that along with speaker sensitivity and listening distance. For example, if someone states they never listen beyond -15 on their calibrated system then they will need less power than say someone who listens at reference all other things being the same. So in this case, there would be no need to buy an amp capable of reference if it's not needed. All that being said, I would still recommend an amp that IS capable of clean power at reference.
When it comes to satellite speakers you missed a critical measurement, listening position distance from the speakers. That's where our confusion started. Room dimensions are more useful for calculating listening room volume and subwoofer system requirements to properly pressurize that space.
Is that with or without subs?


Listening distance was 12 feet.
The Salons were sent a full range signal in Pure Direct mode using the analog inputs.
All rips were from CD's, 2.0 with no sub.

- Rich

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Has any1 heard this AMP or any of the XPA amps woth GE Triton two speakers?? if so what where your thoughts??
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Has any1 heard this AMP or any of the XPA amps woth GE Triton two speakers?? if so what where your thoughts??

Not the Tritons, but I've heard the 1st gen XPA-5, 1st gen XPA-2 and XPR-5 and compared all of them to my receiver and heard no audible difference until I went above reference level volumes on my speakers.
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Not the Tritons, but I've heard the 1st gen XPA-5, 1st gen XPA-2 and XPR-5 and compared all of them to my receiver and heard no audible difference until I went above reference level volumes on my speakers.
What kind of speakers do you have??
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post #203 of 218 Old 01-27-2014, 08:27 PM
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What kind of speakers do you have??

I've had Revel F52s (sold), Philharmonic 3s (moved to bedroom), Infinity Primus P363 (used as rear and wide channels) and finally my current Revel Salon2s. I tried all speakers connected on my old receiver (Denon 4310) and my current receiver (Denon 4311) and all the amps and they all sound the same when level matched via a Radio Shack digital SPL meter. Only reason I still use an external amp is because I run 11 satellite speakers and my receiver can only power 9 channels. I started off with an XPA-5 then returned it for the XPA-2 to power my subs when I was still only running 9 satellite speakers. Now I have the XPR-5, but only because it cost me nothing. I would have been fine with something much less expensive. I think Emotiva has raised the price considerably since they were first introduced.
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post #204 of 218 Old 01-28-2014, 11:42 AM
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Hi

I was thinking of the XPA-5 2nd gen to power a B&W 6 series (books) front trio,but I guess it´s a bit too much, as I have a small room and do not plan to achieve reference level volumes. Should I go for the UPA-5 Instead?

I´m thinking on pairing the amp with the UMC 200. This combo would go instead of a Marantz SR 7008 receiver.

Sorry for the noob question, but I have never listened to this gear before.

Thanx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csan View Post

Hi

I was thinking of the XPA-5 2nd gen to power a B&W 6 series (books) front trio,but I guess it´s a bit too much, as I have a small room and do not plan to achieve reference level volumes. Should I go for the UPA-5 Instead?

I´m thinking on pairing the amp with the UMC 200. This combo would go instead of a Marantz SR 7008 receiver.

Sorry for the noob question, but I have never listened to this gear before.

Thanx
XPA-5 would be plenty. I have the XPR-5, but with Klipsch in walls.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csan View Post

Hi

I was thinking of the XPA-5 2nd gen to power a B&W 6 series (books) front trio,but I guess it´s a bit too much, as I have a small room and do not plan to achieve reference level volumes. Should I go for the UPA-5 Instead?

I´m thinking on pairing the amp with the UMC 200. This combo would go instead of a Marantz SR 7008 receiver.

Sorry for the noob question, but I have never listened to this gear before.

Thanx

If you want ease of setup and use with no compromise in sound go with the Marantz or better yet, save yourself over $1K and go with a Denon AVR-X4000. If you just want bragging rights to say you have a pre-pro and external amp go with the UMC-200/XPA-5 combo so you can wow your guests. Just know that having an external amp will make no difference in sound quality if you have no need for the added power. Just so you know, the XPA-5 will gain you no more than 3dB of additional SPL over the receivers mentioned.

Since you are running bookshelves I'm guessing you are crossing over to a sub so I would think your power requirements for your speakers will be WELL under 30W since the lion's share of power used by a speaker will be for low frequency reproduction. Not only that, but your speakers are only rated for 25W - 100W. That is well within the range of the Denon and Marantz receivers.
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post #207 of 218 Old 01-30-2014, 05:21 AM
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Thanks a lot for the advice. Going to receivers then...
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Quote:
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XPA-5 would be plenty. I have the XPR-5, but with Klipsch in walls.

Any reasons in particular why you went with the XPR versus the XPA
For running your inwallls? The XPR is 400 watts per channel and the
XPA is 200 watts per channel,but your inwallls are rated at 150wpc?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duc135 View Post

If you want ease of setup and use with no compromise in sound go with the Marantz or better yet, save yourself over $1K and go with a Denon AVR-X4000. If you just want bragging rights to say you have a pre-pro and external amp go with the UMC-200/XPA-5 combo so you can wow your guests. Just know that having an external amp will make no difference in sound quality if you have no need for the added power. Just so you know, the XPA-5 will gain you no more than 3dB of additional SPL over the receivers mentioned.

Since you are running bookshelves I'm guessing you are crossing over to a sub so I would think your power requirements for your speakers will be WELL under 30W since the lion's share of power used by a speaker will be for low frequency reproduction. Not only that, but your speakers are only rated for 25W - 100W. That is well within the range of the Denon and Marantz receivers.

IM sorry duc135 where are you getting your information about there being No difference in SQ?? Amps of today is not the amps of yesteryear...They have chips and processors in them that makes them capable of doing more than just amplifying sound. Everything inside a particular amp contributes to the sound quality. And just because 1s hearing is not as good to discern the differences doesn't mean that nobody else is. I 4 one have very good hearing. I have never listen to any music through a pair of headphones. Which science has proven does causes hear loss overtime. I have been an Audio "Aficionado" for over 20 yrs and even car amps differ in sound from 1 another. So I say Csan..audition for yourself trust your OWN ears not any1 else's or any1 else mouth for that reason. Spent your money how you see best for you. Your the one that's going to live with it. and better to do it once and be done. All the best to you!! wink.gif
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grasshoppers View Post

Any reasons in particular why you went with the XPR versus the XPA
For running your inwallls? The XPR is 400 watts per channel and the
XPA is 200 watts per channel,but your inwallls are rated at 150wpc?

I went with the XPR-5 instead of the XPA Gen 1 because of the greater power-handling and better specs. in general, like higher capacitance and a bigger transformer as related to power output. I also got a GREAT deal on the XPR-5 and only had rack space for ONE amp. The 5 speakers connected to my XPR-5 can handle in excess of 450 watts RMS each. I did audition the XPA-5 with my gear before settling on the XPR. Normal volume levels between the two were fine but something was missing when I cranked the XPA-5 to 11. I'm betting that the noise floor is very similar between the two now since the XPA Gen 2 has the same gain as the XPR.
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