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post #1 of 30 Old 07-04-2012, 03:30 AM - Thread Starter
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I am about to purchase the Definitive Tech BP-8040ST 5.1 system and I am looking for a receiver that will suite my needs. I will be adding an Epik Empire to the system. I have a 3D TV, Blue-ray player, DVD player, and Satellite cable box. My budget is around 1K. I have heard a lot of good things about the Pioneer Elite’s but the new line is very expensive. I am shooting for as close to 150W per channel as possible. Any advice would be appreciated. Thank You.
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post #2 of 30 Old 07-04-2012, 03:47 AM
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Not sure what is driving the 150W requirement as those speakers are fairly efficient @ 92db and will only be drawing about 2-3W the vast majority of the time so pretty much any AVR will drive them unless of course the setup is in a very large room and you play at near or above reference volume levels. Determine your other requirements and make your selection based on those needs rather than power. For starters you can review the first few posts in each of the Denon XX12 and XX13 model owner's threads linked in my sig for a comparison of the various models offered in each series.

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post #3 of 30 Old 07-04-2012, 04:08 AM
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I would suggest that you consider other speaker options; the built-in subwoofer is very limiting, because you want your front speakers to be located in a particular place, and that is likely to NOT be the best location for the subwoofer. This is problematical.

In other words, the subwoofer should be a separate unit so it can be placed where IT is going to give you good performance.

There are all kinds of speakers in that price range from PSB, KEF, and Gallo Acoustics, to name only three, that will outperform those Deftech speakers in all areas for prices that are comparable or even lower.

Good subwoofers from Hsu, NHT, and Rythmic are also much better subwoofers.

For a receiver, I suggest that you look at the Denon AVR-2112CI. It has plenty of power for any of the speakers you are likely to use.



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Originally Posted by Phillip6414 View Post

I am about to purchase the Definitive Tech BP-8040ST 5.1 system and I am looking for a receiver that will suite my needs. I will be adding an Epik Empire to the system. I have a 3D TV, Blue-ray player, DVD player, and Satellite cable box. My budget is around 1K. I have heard a lot of good things about the Pioneer Elite’s but the new line is very expensive. I am shooting for as close to 150W per channel as possible. Any advice would be appreciated. Thank You.
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post #4 of 30 Old 07-04-2012, 04:17 AM
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^^^
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillip6414 View Post

I am about to purchase the Definitive Tech BP-8040ST 5.1 system and I am looking for a receiver that will suite my needs. I will be adding an Epik Empire to the system. I have a 3D TV, Blue-ray player, DVD player, and Satellite cable box. My budget is around 1K. I have heard a lot of good things about the Pioneer Elite’s but the new line is very expensive. I am shooting for as close to 150W per channel as possible. Any advice would be appreciated. Thank You.

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post #5 of 30 Old 07-08-2012, 12:50 AM - Thread Starter
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I would like your opinion on a receiver. I am mostly looking at the Pioneers Elites, Denon's, and Onkyo's. The Denon's have a much lower W per channel than the pioneers but are also a bit less money. I am trying to consider so many factors and it seems that this is going to be my most challenging purchase in the system. I have an LED LCD Samsung HD 1080P 3D TV along with a Samsung 3D Blu-ray player so I will need the 3D pass. What would you recommend?
Things I'm looking for-
-Low THD
-Full bandwidth power rating
-High current power
-Video up conversion
-Multi bandwidth remote
-Audyssey MultEQ
-I hear the weight of the unit is important (heavier is better)
-Known for not having overheating issues
-A sufficient power rating per channel for my setup. It may be smart for me to get a slightly higher W per channel so I don’t have to purchase an amp (just a thought of mine)
-Something that meets my needs without breaking the bank. Budget around 1K (I’d rather not spend 1K if I can avoid it)
Am I missing anything? Feel free to recommend receivers (I know a few of you have already recommended a couple).

Thanks again to you all for your time and help.
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post #6 of 30 Old 07-08-2012, 04:39 AM
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As already suggested, with those speakers you don't need a high powered AVR at all. "Video up conversion" generally means converting an analog signal (eg. Wii) to HDMI ... is this what you need or are you referring to "video upscaling to 1080p". What is a "multi bandwidth remote"? Last year's Denon 2112CI or this years 2113CI would likely serve you very well.

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post #7 of 30 Old 07-08-2012, 05:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

As already suggested, with those speakers you don't need a high powered AVR at all. "Video up conversion" generally means converting an analog signal (eg. Wii) to HDMI ... is this what you need or are you referring to "video upscaling to 1080p". What is a "multi bandwidth remote"? Last year's Denon 2112CI or this years 2113CI would likely serve you very well.

My apologies jdsmoothie for not giving all info here. I forgot to mention that I am no longer going with the def techs. My final decision in regards to speaker is- Wharfedale Diamond 10.7 (towers), 10cm (center), Diamond DFS (surrounds) and a VTF-15H sub. The 10.7’s and the 10cm have a sensitivity of (1W @ 1M) 90db and the Diamond DFS’s (1W @ 1M) 86 db. None of these are powered speakers.
In reference to video up conversion- looking to upscale to 1080P or improving the video of a DVD for eg.
Multi bandwidth remote- one that can be programed to work with other electronics, not a big deal at all.
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post #8 of 30 Old 07-08-2012, 05:36 AM
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Slightly under 1k will get you an onkyo tx-nr818 - the lowest priced unit currently with Audyssey MultiEQ XT32 plus will meet the other requirements you listed.
http://onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=TX-NR818&class=Receiver&p=i
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post #9 of 30 Old 07-08-2012, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillip6414 View Post

My apologies jdsmoothie for not giving all info here. I forgot to mention that I am no longer going with the def techs. My final decision in regards to speaker is- Wharfedale Diamond 10.7 (towers), 10cm (center), Diamond DFS (surrounds) and a VTF-15H sub. The 10.7’s and the 10cm have a sensitivity of (1W @ 1M) 90db and the Diamond DFS’s (1W @ 1M) 86 db. None of these are powered speakers.
In reference to video up conversion- looking to upscale to 1080P or improving the video of a DVD for eg.
Multi bandwidth remote- one that can be programed to work with other electronics, not a big deal at all.

Okay, so a little harder to drive what with not only a lower sensitivity rating but also 6-ohm vice 8-ohm, although these too can still be run by most AVRs without issue. On the Denon side, you'd have to go with the 2312CI or 3312CI for any 1080p upscaling capability while on the current year's models the 1913 would be the lowest model with this feature.

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post #10 of 30 Old 07-08-2012, 07:57 AM
 
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Phillip6414 wrote:

-I hear the weight of the unit is important (heavier is better)
-Known for not having overheating issues


Check into transformers as that's where the heat issues are.

EI Core vs Toroidal; heat vs noise. Do a Google search for more information on the matter.

-A sufficient power rating per channel for my setup.

At what sound pressure level (SPL) do you plan on listening to? 75-80 is my understanding of reference pressure levels but in the end, it's the sensitivity of your ears that will be the final judge. There's a whole school regarding watts, speaker sensitivity and sound pressure level. The basics are, speaker sensitivity and for every 3dB SPL increase, one needs a doubling in Amp watt output.

My Klipsch Epic CF-3's have a 100dB 1w/m sensitivity.

1-2-4-8-16-32-64-128 watts.

@ 100dB sensitivity, you have 100-103-106-109-112-115-118-121 dB.

(Bless Klipsch horns)

How much SPL you need to enjoy the movie soundtrack will determine how much power you need. Never hurts to stop by the Shack and pick up a decent sound pressure meter so one knows how loud their system is. Also, one needs to consider sufficient headroom to allow for soundtrack dynamics; soft whispers to full on, climatic explosion scenes. When stuff starts coming off shelves, you know you're cranking. biggrin.gif

It may be smart for me to get a slightly higher W per channel so I don’t have to purchase an amp (just a thought of mine)
-Something that meets my needs without breaking the bank. Budget around 1K (I’d rather not spend 1K if I can avoid it)
Am I missing anything?


Just the Amp. tongue.gif

Based on your comments, I'm a Denon/Marantz kinda guy and have been for years, I'd check out one of these suggestions; Marantz SR5007, SR6006, Denon 2313CI or 3313CI. Give some of the online shops like Vann's a call and see what kind of deal you can work out. To get the best bang-for-your-buck, see if last years models will meet your needs. Doing this allows you to step up a grade or two at the price of this years models.

Thanks again to you all for your time and help.

Hope the above helps.
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post #11 of 30 Old 07-09-2012, 03:37 AM - Thread Starter
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I have done some pretty in-depth research on Onkyo and Denon. It seems that Onkyo tends to lead in the not so good reviews category. I noticed that most receivers get their fair share of bad reviews but the Denons did a little better. You may disagree but something keeps drawing me back to the Pioneer Elites. The SC-35 to be specific. It weighs about 12 lbs more than the Denon 3312ci and has much better reviews. The Elites seem to do extremely well with reviews. I’m thinking of getting this receiver for my system and seeing how it performs without an amp. I can always purchase an amp if need be later. The SC-35 puts out 140W per channel at 8 ohms. Since the Wharfedale’s are only 6 ohms, does this mean that they will be powered more easily by the receiver (maybe I will not need an amp)? I don’t mean to be difficult here by not taking your advice, but I feel like the Elites are better receivers and I would hate to purchase a receiver that is not as good as the Elites so that I can afford to add an amp. Some are telling me that I may not need an amp. It also may come down to how loud I will be playing music/movies which is hard to say because I really have no idea. I found an SC-35 for $930 (shipping included) on ebay which I realize is a good chunk more than a refurbished Onkyo or Denon but I can’t help but be attracted to those Elites. One reason is because they seem to be known for their good video/audio quality. I realize I don’t know much about audio but I need to challenge these options since I am putting so much cash out for the equipment. I do understand that the Elites do not have Audyssey MultiEQ which is fine; I will just have to learn to set up the system myself.
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post #12 of 30 Old 07-09-2012, 03:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillip6414 View Post

Since the Wharfedale’s are only 6 ohms, does this mean that they will be powered more easily by the receiver (maybe I will not need an amp)?

No, rather a 6-ohm speaker is harder to drive than an 8-ohm speaker, if both have the same sensitivity/efficiency rating.
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I do understand that the Elites do not have Audyssey MultiEQ which is fine; I will just have to learn to set up the system myself.

Note that setting up the speaker size, distance, volume, crossover is only part of the AUTO calibration process when using an AUTO EQ program. It's highly unlikely you would be able to EQ the speakers manually better than what Audyssey which uses many hundreds of filters can do.

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post #13 of 30 Old 07-09-2012, 04:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Note that setting up the speaker size, distance, volume, crossover is only part of the AUTO calibration process when using an AUTO EQ program. It's highly unlikely you would be able to EQ the speakers manually better than what Audyssey which uses many hundreds of filters can do.

OK, I see that 6 ohms is harder to power than 8. I guess it is opposite from the way I was thinking about it. I just looked at it like a lower resistance would = more power but I guess not.

In regards to the receiver, does this mean it is better to purchase a cheaper, maybe less quality receiver to get the AUTO EQ feature? Does this mean that everyone that has purchased a receiver without the AUTO EQ feature is not getting as good audio as people with the AUTO EQ. The Elites do have an auto setup feature. The specs list “Auto MCACC”. Is this much different from the Auto EQ?
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post #14 of 30 Old 07-09-2012, 04:43 AM
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Think of impedance values like different size pipes. Generalizing ..... an 8-ohm rating would be like a 1/2" PVC pipe. To have the water flow through the pipe at a certain velocity (ie. volume) requires a certain amount of water flow (ie. power). While a 4-ohm rating would be like a 2" PVC pipe. It's going to require a whole lot more water flow to reach the same velocity as when using the 1/2" pipe. A 6-ohm rating would be about a 1 1/4" pipe.

The various brands use different types of AUTO EQ: Pioneer (MCAAC), Yamaha (YPAO), Audyssey (Denon, Marantz, Onkyo) to name a few. A small minority prefer not to use an AUTO EQ at all, while for the vast majority of buyers, it will likely be the most important feature to help improve the audio fidelity in their respective living/family rooms.

You're going about it the right way however, by purchasing the speakers first. Ideally you would be able to demo both a Pioneer Elite and Audyssey AVR to determine which you prefer better as some prefer MCAAC over Audyssey and others vice versa.

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post #15 of 30 Old 07-09-2012, 08:49 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillip6414 View Post

but I feel like the Elites are better receivers and I would hate to purchase a receiver that is not as good as the Elites so that I can afford to add an amp.

Can you quantify the differences or is this more a gut feeling; emotional response?

Quote:
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It also may come down to how loud I will be playing music/movies which is hard to say because I really have no idea.

That's why I wrote of how one can easily tell how loud their system can theoretically go and why the need for the SPL meter so you can accurately tell for yourself, how loud your listening experience is. You'll find a SPL meter is a fun toy to walk around town and your home with.

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I do understand that the Elites do not have Audyssey MultiEQ which is fine; I will just have to learn to set up the system myself.

Even for an experienced person, this is a daunting task as due to room/speaker interaction characteristics, there's only so much one can do where as the Audyssey can be considered a God send and this coming from a person who's dealt with the frustrations of setting up rooms and hasn't had the "pleasure" of experiencing the sonic benefit of Audyssey. The point don't sell either experience, setting up a room on the fly or using Audyssey, short.

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post #16 of 30 Old 07-09-2012, 10:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Can you quantify the differences or is this more a gut feeling; emotional response?

Thank you Beeman458 for asking/pointing this out because you are correct. Purchasing the Pioneer would be based on emotion which is wrong wrong wrong.
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post #17 of 30 Old 07-09-2012, 10:30 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, after thinking about it, I'm ready to pull my head out of my A**. It really doesn't make sense for me to get the Pioneer. Everyone is telling me not to but I guess I just really wanted to for a couple reasons, Beeman said it best. What do you think about combining the Denon 3312 with a 300W 2 channel amp. It only makes sense to get a less expensive receiver for many reasons, I would get XT which I think is important, for just a little more money I would get basically the same features from the receiver AND a 2 channel amp for the towers(I’m looking at the OSD 300W amp for this). Plus if I purchase the receiver from A4less I can get the 5 yr protection plan for pretty cheap. The other question I have is what do you think about refurbished receivers? Is it better to just purchase it new for only about $150 more or purchase it refurbished and get the 5 yr protection plan for just a little cheaper than new? Either way I get basically the same receiver and an amp for just a little more than the Pioneer which now seems to be a no brainer. Thanks again for all your help and advise.
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post #18 of 30 Old 07-10-2012, 06:27 AM
 
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Other than the cool factor (nothing wrong with cool), based on your above conversation, thinking of your posted cost considerations, what's the point (the logic of your thinking) of a separate, 300w, stereo Amp?

http://www.amazon.com/OSD-Audio-AMP300-Dual-Source-Definition/dp/B0028VG8QE

(Nothing wrong with the OSD AMP300 as it's spec'd as 2 ohm stable.)

Earlier you asked: "Since the Wharfedale’s are only 6 ohms, does this mean that they will be powered more easily by the receiver (maybe I will not need an amp)?"

It's a bit confusing but as the ohms go down the resistance goes up and the receiver sees the lower ohm speaker requirement as a short; think arc welding. Pretty much, most receivers are 6 ohm spec'd. And yes, the confusion, the available watts does go up. Example, the Denon 2313CI goes from 105w to 135w and is 6 ohm stable.

http://usa.denon.com/DocumentMaster/US/AVR2313CI_0419.pdf (see pg 2)

From here one gets into watts, dB's and how loud do you want it? Getting one's rational concerns under control is much like herding cats. smile.gif


An aside to your comment regarding the addition of a separate Amp. Something most don't concern themselves with when assembling a killer system, what is the amperage of the to be used circuit breaker? At 120V, a 15A breaker is only going give you 1800w of available current. What this means is, the more draw you put on the circuit, the less headroom your Amp will have to work with because the available current will be restricted and you'll start tripping breakers or blowing fuses. With constant draw, wire heats up from electron transfer friction; think wall fires. Also, when electrical devices are energy limited, they run hot like running a car up a long steep hill. And like a car, the hotter gear gets, the less efficiently they run.

A suggestion would be to add up all the watts of all the devices that would be running while viewing a movie, including the 300w Amp. All are things to consider when adding separates and low efficiency speakers into a system and how will they get along with existing wall wiring.

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post #19 of 30 Old 07-11-2012, 12:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Other than the cool factor (nothing wrong with cool), based on your above conversation, thinking of your posted cost considerations, what's the point (the logic of your thinking) of a separate, 300w, stereo Amp?
http://www.amazon.com/OSD-Audio-AMP300-Dual-Source-Definition/dp/B0028VG8QE
(Nothing wrong with the OSD AMP300 as it's spec'd as 2 ohm stable.)
Earlier you asked: "Since the Wharfedale’s are only 6 ohms, does this mean that they will be powered more easily by the receiver (maybe I will not need an amp)?"
It's a bit confusing but as the ohms go down the resistance goes up and the receiver sees the lower ohm speaker requirement as a short; think arc welding. Pretty much, most receivers are 6 ohm spec'd. And yes, the confusion, the available watts does go up. Example, the Denon 2313CI goes from 105w to 135w and is 6 ohm stable.
http://usa.denon.com/DocumentMaster/US/AVR2313CI_0419.pdf (see pg 2)
From here one gets into watts, dB's and how loud do you want it? Getting one's rational concerns under control is much like herding cats. smile.gif

It has been suggested to me that since I have a fairly large room (20’x26’), the receiver may not give me the power needed to push all the speakers in my system, primarily the towers. Of course this depends on how loud I will want to listen to HT/Music. I know you have recommended a method to determine this. If nothing else it will take some stress off of the receiver and would allow me to push the towers a little more. Now with that being said, I am in the military currently deployed and my goal is to purchase all needed and have it delivered to my house before I get home. This is why I am not taking your advice on how to determine how loud I will like to listen to the system, great advice though. So the plan is to get the amp to ensure that I have enough power, although it could be an unnecessary piece of equipment that is not cheap. About half say get it and the other say I won’t need it. Thinking of playing it safe and get it.
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post #20 of 30 Old 07-11-2012, 12:13 AM - Thread Starter
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An aside to your comment regarding the addition of a separate Amp. Something most don't concern themselves with when assembling a killer system, what is the amperage of the to be used circuit breaker? At 120V, a 15A breaker is only going give you 1800w of available current. What this means is, the more draw you put on the circuit, the less headroom your Amp will have to work with because the available current will be restricted and you'll start tripping breakers or blowing fuses. With constant draw, wire heats up from electron transfer friction; think wall fires. Also, when electrical devices are energy limited, they run hot like running a car up a long steep hill. And like a car, the hotter gear gets, the less efficiently they run.
A suggestion would be to add up all the watts of all the devices that would be running while viewing a movie, including the 300w Amp. All are things to consider when adding separates and low efficiency speakers into a system and how will they get along with existing wall wiring.
-[/quote]

Thanks for the info.
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post #21 of 30 Old 07-11-2012, 06:41 AM
 
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post #22 of 30 Old 07-11-2012, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Phillip6414 View Post

OK, after thinking about it, I'm ready to pull my head out of my A**. It really doesn't make sense for me to get the Pioneer. Everyone is telling me not to but I guess I just really wanted to for a couple reasons, Beeman said it best. What do you think about combining the Denon 3312 with a 300W 2 channel amp. It only makes sense to get a less expensive receiver for many reasons, I would get XT which I think is important, for just a little more money I would get basically the same features from the receiver AND a 2 channel amp for the towers(I’m looking at the OSD 300W amp for this). Plus if I purchase the receiver from A4less I can get the 5 yr protection plan for pretty cheap. The other question I have is what do you think about refurbished receivers? Is it better to just purchase it new for only about $150 more or purchase it refurbished and get the 5 yr protection plan for just a little cheaper than new? Either way I get basically the same receiver and an amp for just a little more than the Pioneer which now seems to be a no brainer. Thanks again for all your help and advise.

Ok, just to throw my two cents in.

Audissey (which I haven't used) is highly thought of to customize the receiver to the listening environment. I'm a Pioneer guy and have used Pioneer receivers for a while. The equivalent function in Pioneer receivers is MCACC. It is at least in the conversation with Audissey in its abilities to perform the same functions.

So, to me, the discussion is not that Audissey gives a receiver an unsurmountable advantage, but rather that it's one of the things to consider versus other receivers with YPAO or MCACC. MCACC has done great correction for me - it lacks certain features that the others have, but does have features the others lack. They all basically perform the same task reasonably well.
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post #23 of 30 Old 07-11-2012, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillip6414 View Post

OK, after thinking about it, I'm ready to pull my head out of my A**. It really doesn't make sense for me to get the Pioneer. Everyone is telling me not to but I guess I just really wanted to for a couple reasons, Beeman said it best. What do you think about combining the Denon 3312 with a 300W 2 channel amp. It only makes sense to get a less expensive receiver for many reasons, I would get XT which I think is important, for just a little more money I would get basically the same features from the receiver AND a 2 channel amp for the towers(I’m looking at the OSD 300W amp for this). Plus if I purchase the receiver from A4less I can get the 5 yr protection plan for pretty cheap. The other question I have is what do you think about refurbished receivers? Is it better to just purchase it new for only about $150 more or purchase it refurbished and get the 5 yr protection plan for just a little cheaper than new? Either way I get basically the same receiver and an amp for just a little more than the Pioneer which now seems to be a no brainer. Thanks again for all your help and advise.


related to your question I get a refub from A4Less.. I gotten things there that said refub but looked to be brand new. And have a good return policy.. but then again I am thirty..
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post #24 of 30 Old 07-12-2012, 10:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by hernanu View Post

Ok, just to throw my two cents in.
Audissey (which I haven't used) is highly thought of to customize the receiver to the listening environment. I'm a Pioneer guy and have used Pioneer receivers for a while. The equivalent function in Pioneer receivers is MCACC. It is at least in the conversation with Audissey in its abilities to perform the same functions.
So, to me, the discussion is not that Audissey gives a receiver an unsurmountable advantage, but rather that it's one of the things to consider versus other receivers with YPAO or MCACC. MCACC has done great correction for me - it lacks certain features that the others have, but does have features the others lack. They all basically perform the same task reasonably well.
Good point but the one feature that Audissey provides that MCAAC does not is it EQs the sub. Being the novice I am, this could be an important feature for myself. I do appreciate the input though; I need all I can get as for this is all very new to me. The Denon is also about $400 less than the equivalent Pioneer Elite, which also seems to be a fantastic receiver that I would love to own. All things considered I feel that the Denon 3312 is the best bet for me because it allows me to spend some of that money saved on an AMP. But I do understand that not all agree with me getting the AMP which is fine. I need all these ideas to be challenged and with that I can make what I think is the best decision for myself based on the info that is presented to me.
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post #25 of 30 Old 07-12-2012, 10:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisfromalbany View Post

related to your question I get a refub from A4Less.. I gotten things there that said refub but looked to be brand new. And have a good return policy.. but then again I am thirty..
I’m not sure what you being thirty is supposed to mean. Thanks for giving me some feedback on your experience with A4Less because I’m pretty sure that I am going to take this rout. I am curious how the warranty service is done though. Have you had warranty service done before? Do you ship the item back or take it to a repair shop/facility?
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post #26 of 30 Old 07-13-2012, 12:54 AM
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I’m not sure what you being thirty is supposed to mean.

I think he may have meant thrifty.

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post #27 of 30 Old 07-13-2012, 04:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Oh ya, got it! That makes sense.
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post #28 of 30 Old 07-25-2012, 12:46 AM - Thread Starter
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OK, you all are familiar with my situation I would like you opinion about banana plugs and speaker wire. I really don’t want to get too hung up on this because I know there is a ton of controversy on this subject which I would like to try and avoid. I think the GLS Audio Banana Plugs will work well based on my research. I would like to keep it simple with the speaker wire but I have been told to use the thickest wire possible for the best performance. I am thinking of going with 10 or 12 gauge wire for towers, center, surrounds and maybe sub (not sure if I am going to run speaker wire to the sub or RCA, the sub is powered so I don’t know if it matters). I would like to purchase one spool of wire and just cut it to length as needed.

Again my setup is-
Wharfedale Diamond 10.7 (Towers, 200W each), 10CM (Center, 200W) and Diamond DFS (Surrounds, 120W each) with an HSU VTF-15H Sub and a Donon 3312CI. I am going to set this up without an external amp and see how it performs without the external amp and add it I feel it’s necessary. The length of wires being run will be around 6’ for the towers, 3’ for the center, 25’ for the surrounds and 20’ for the sub. My question is focused on the speaker wire here. What gauge would you recommend?
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post #29 of 30 Old 07-25-2012, 03:55 AM
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You can use 16 gauge or thicker speaker wire so of the two, 12 gauge will be more than sufficient. Also, there's no need to connect wire to the sub, rather coax digital cable only from the sub pre-out.

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post #30 of 30 Old 09-19-2012, 02:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Just wanted to let everyone know how the Denon 3312CI worked out for me. I love the Wharfedale's but the 3312, not so much. I purchased a factory refurbished Denon 3312CI AV Receiver on 8-3-12 from your website. I started having problems with this receiver the day I took it out of the box. I spent countless hours troubleshooting trying to get my Bluray Disc (BD) player to work with the receiver with no success. I ended up buying another BD player in hopes of fixing this issue which it did but was frustrating because I was no longer able to use my $200 BD player which worked just fine except when routing it through the receiver. Turns out it was the receiver that would not work with my BD player. Then I spent hours on the phone with Denon trying to figure out why the receiver would not update the firmware because Denon required that I do this insisting that this should fix the issue with the BD player. After hours of trying, I was unable to get the receiver to update the firmware. The receiver seemed to work fine so I did not return it but came very close and did not mostly because I read the return policy with Accessories4less which stated that if your testers couldn't replicate the problem I would be out a lot of money for shipping and restocking fees. After owning the receiver for just over 30 days (just outside of the return period) it starting shutting down/restarting about every 30 seconds which made the unit completely unusable. It was very clear to me that something was wrong with this unit and I was now stuck with it. I called Denon again and they had no idea what was wrong with it so they agreed to replace it with another refurbished unit. I was out a receiver for a week and received the replacement yesterday. I opened it and set it all up, excited that my countless hours of troubleshooting and frustration were all over because the defective unit was gone. I went to turn on the second unit and it wouldn't turn on for more than a few seconds before shutting off and the power button would start flashing. I spent an hour trying to figure out why this unit was doing this with no success. I called Denon and explained what was happening and they didn't know why it was doing this and they told me to send the receiver back to them and they would sound out a THIRD receiver, I told them YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME. Why would you replace a defective receiver with another defective receiver?. I will now be out of a receiver for who knows how long and I don't have a good feeling about what they are going to send me. I have spent 6 weeks fighting with this either trying to get the receiver to work, sitting on the phone with Denon or waiting for a replacement. I spent $600 on this piece of crap and am now waiting for a THIRD receiver. A4Less is working with Denon now trying to get me an upgrade to a brand new 3312 in hopes of fixing the issue. Does Denon suck or am I just really unlucky? I guess you can decide for yourself but I assure you there is a really good chance I will never buy a Denon again. Can you blame me? I hope this info helps anyone on the fence about buying a Denon AV receiver.
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