If You Were Buying A new Pre-Pro (Or AVR) Today, $2500.00 Or Less budget, For Best Performance, Features and Value, What Would You Buy? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 57 Old 07-08-2012, 04:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Beeman, you make some good points. Like you, for music, and all critical listening, I am a confirmed tube guy. But as I noted in my original post, thats handled separately from my home theater system. Based on advice recieved here, I'm not planning on spending the entire budget, likely half, or a bit more on a receiver. The key is, it needs to have a very good pre/pro section,for sound and video processing. Also, it cant skimp on amplifier quality since I will need it for powering the secondary surrounds. The plan has always been to use the five channel Sunfire for the front left, right and center channels, and the primary surrounds.


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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

John Clark wrote: "The situation has now been complicated by the failure of my fifteen year old amplifier previously used for the front left and right channel mains. I do have an additional five channel Sunfire amplifier, but that leaves me without ampliification for two surround channels. In a perfect world, if there was an AVR with preamp performance comparable to something along the lines of the 80.3, I could use two of its channels of amplification to power the remaining two surround channels,and use my five channel Sunfire for the mains, center and primary surrounds."
Have you considered simply a decent 7.2 receive with pre-outs to hook up to your Sunfire as opposed to spending the full budget of $2,500.00? Is the difference in sound quality going set your soul on fire?
Sunfire; Mmmmmmmmmmmm. biggrin.gif
I'm big on sound quality and find speakers and Amps are first on my list of considerations and second, DACs and transports; all of which are important components in the information stream. Are you in it for music or theater? One being primary and the other secondary. Are you into critical listening all the time or just in it for some good, all around sound quality to accompany the video or evening experience? Are you a horn kind-a-guy or a ribbon kind-of-guy? Are you a tube guy, a solid state (SS) guy or a hybrid of both? For music, I'm tubes, for movies, I'm SS. The point, stating the obvious, in the end, how you expect to use your system will determine what direction you should go.
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post #32 of 57 Old 07-08-2012, 05:38 PM
 
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John Clark wrote: "The key is, it needs to have a very good pre/pro section,for sound and video processing."

Love my Golden Tube SE-40. The rub in your above is, now you're into the subjective world of the esoteric. Anything beyond a flat graph and you're into the wonderful world of Golden Ears and double blind studies saying there's no difference beyond chance. No problem with that point, just saying.

At the twelve hundred dollar price point, one has to ask how hard they want to push the string with Marantz, Denon or whom ever. Do you go with open box return, referb, last years model or this years recent release?

Me? I went with the feature set of Marantz. The wonks here are sold on Audyssey XT32 for the extra readings of the room and not having experience with Audyssey, I have to go with their recommendation. Audyssey says that you aren't going get Marantz and their XT32 in the same package. Not good. This pushes you over to Denon and since the AVR-A100 isn't available, that knocks you over to the AVR4311CI. Isn't it fun getting push around by manufactures?

Give a place like Crutchfield or Vann's a call and see what kind of phone deal you can work out. I'd expect you could get ten or fifteen percent knocked off list and get UPS two-day shipping thrown into the deal or on the cheap, get next day thrown in as everybody here seems to be herding you towards the AVR4311CI.
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post #33 of 57 Old 07-08-2012, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

John Clark wrote: "The key is, it needs to have a very good pre/pro section,for sound and video processing."
Love my Golden Tube SE-40. The rub in your above is, now you're into the subjective world of the esoteric. Anything beyond a flat graph and you're into the wonderful world of Golden Ears and double blind studies saying there's no difference beyond chance. No problem with that point, just saying.
At the twelve hundred dollar price point, one has to ask how hard they want to push the string with Marantz, Denon or whom ever. Do you go with open box return, referb, last years model or this years recent release?
Me? I went with the feature set of Marantz. The wonks here are sold on Audyssey XT32 for the extra readings of the room and not having experience with Audyssey, I have to go with their recommendation. Audyssey says that you aren't going get Marantz and their XT32 in the same package. Not good. This pushes you over to Denon and since the AVR-A100 isn't available, that knocks you over to the AVR4311CI. Isn't it fun getting push around by manufactures?
Give a place like Crutchfield or Vann's a call and see what kind of phone deal you can work out. I'd expect you could get ten or fifteen percent knocked off list and get UPS two-day shipping thrown into the deal or on the cheap, get next day thrown in as everybody here seems to be herding you towards the AVR4311CI.

I'm not sure what to make of this post. But if you are suggesting the OP look to Crutchfield or Vann's to get 10-15% off the list price of the 4311 he would be paying way too much wink.gif. The list price of the 4311 is $2099 so 15% off of that is roughly $315. So that would be $1785 for the cost of the 4311. I recently paid $500 less than that so you might want check this thread out.

Bill


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post #34 of 57 Old 07-08-2012, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post


i am firmly in the objectivist camp... objectively, xt32 provides a better result than xt (and better than xt + the antimode i used)...

The problem with Audyssey, be it XT or XT32, is that they still don't let you defeat the crappy speakers compensation notch without springing for Pro.

Now, I realize most people run crappy speakers, i.e. those designed without regard to matching directivity in the crossover region (e.g. the typical bookshelf speaker with a 7" woofer and a 1" tweeter plopped flush on the baffle; doesn't matter if a speaker with that design costs $200 or $20k, it's still going to suffer from fundamental midrange flaws).

For those of us with good speakers, Audyssey's room correction is deleterious. Indeed, I only used it because I found the advantage of DynamicEQ compelling.

That's the main reason why, when my Denon 4308 crapped its digital board shortly after the warranty ran out, I was glad that a better room correction system in the form of Anthem's ARC was available in a reasonably priced AVR. Especially since they also have Dolby's version of Audyssey DynamicEQ on board.

So, to answer the OP's question, especially if you still want to use your Sunfire amp, I'd spend a bit under 1/2 the budget on an Anthem MRX 300, and the balance on something else that could make a sonic improvement, such as a couple decent subwoofers and a miniDSP for a multisub system.

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post #35 of 57 Old 07-08-2012, 08:05 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I'm not sure what to make of this post. But if you are suggesting the OP look to Crutchfield or Vann's to get 10-15% off the list price of the 4311 he would be paying way too much wink.gif. The list price of the 4311 is $2099 so 15% off of that is roughly $315. So that would be $1785 for the cost of the 4311. I recently paid $500 less than that so you might want check this thread out.
Bill

I don't know why you'd have a problem with my comments. My suggestion was to give them a call and find out what kind of price they could work-up. Sounds like you got a great price. Your comment should be directed to John, not me and we'll both hope he gets a similar great price.

smile.gif

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post #36 of 57 Old 07-08-2012, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

The wonks here are sold on Audyssey XT32 for the extra readings of the room and not having experience with Audyssey, I have to go with their recommendation.

Audyssey XT32 provides 8 mic measurements just as does XT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Audyssey says that you aren't going get Marantz and their XT32 in the same package.

The Marantz AV8007 will most likely have XT32.
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Give a place like Crutchfield or Vann's a call and see what kind of phone deal you can work out. I'd expect you could get ten or fifteen percent knocked off list and get UPS two-day shipping thrown into the deal or on the cheap, get next day thrown in as everybody here seems to be herding you towards the AVR4311CI.

Saving only 10-15% off list is not a good recommendation when there are a number of authorized resellers that offer up to 25-30% off list on new units right out of the gate to include AV Science, Electronics Expo, ABT, and J&R to name a few. Also if you want to refer folks to the 4311CI, suggest you use this thread to do it ---> http://www.avsforum.com/t/1388717/denon-4311ci-ee-for-1329-99/0_100.

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post #37 of 57 Old 07-08-2012, 08:37 PM
 
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There is no problem. John can make a call and see what the best deal is he can work out. I'm sure he knows how to shop around.

"Also if you want to refer folks to the 4311CI, suggest you use this thread to do it --->"

Nobody needs to be referred to any additional threads. One can go to Denon, check the unit out and see if it serves their purposes. If it does, they can make a call and see what kind of deal can be worked out.

My suggestion would be to refer John to the thread, not me.
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post #38 of 57 Old 07-09-2012, 04:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I don't know why you'd have a problem with my comments. My suggestion was to give them a call and find out what kind of price they could work-up. Sounds like you got a great price. Your comment should be directed to John, not me and we'll both hope he gets a similar great price.
smile.gif
-

My problem with your post was that it was rambling a bit and calling those that suggested the 4311 "wonks" (whatever that is). Just so you know there is no need to direct my comments to John regarding the best price for the 4311. I have already PM'd him with indepth information on finding the best possible price for the 4311. The comment about price was directed to you specifically so you would know where to find the lowest possible price. Also so that you would not be directing people to online resellers that are still selling the 4311 for much more than others are.

I see you are a fairly new member here. In the future you might consider taking other members advice when the advice you are dispensing is not the best wink.gif. In other words don't tell other members not to direct their comments to you but other to people. A simple "gee thanks for that bit of information" might be better suited IMO.

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post #39 of 57 Old 07-09-2012, 04:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

My problem with your post was that it was rambling a bit and calling those that suggested the 4311 "wonks" (whatever that is). Just so you know there is no need to direct my comments to John regarding the best price for the 4311. I have already PM'd him with indepth information on finding the best possible price for the 4311. The comment about price was directed to you specifically so you would know where to find the lowest possible price. Also so that you would not be directing people to online resellers that are still selling the 4311 for much more than others are.
I see you are a fairly new member here. In the future you might consider taking other members advice when the advice you are dispensing is not the best wink.gif. In other words don't tell other members not to direct their comments to you but other to people. A simple "gee thanks for that bit of information" might be better suited IMO.
Bill

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

My problem with your post was that it was rambling a bit and calling those that suggested the 4311 "wonks" (whatever that is). Just so you know there is no need to direct my comments to John regarding the best price for the 4311. I have already PM'd him with indepth information on finding the best possible price for the 4311. The comment about price was directed to you specifically so you would know where to find the lowest possible price. Also so that you would not be directing people to online resellers that are still selling the 4311 for much more than others are.
I see you are a fairly new member here. In the future you might consider taking other members advice when the advice you are dispensing is not the best wink.gif. In other words don't tell other members not to direct their comments to you but other to people. A simple "gee thanks for that bit of information" might be better suited IMO.
Bill

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post #41 of 57 Old 07-09-2012, 06:04 AM
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This is a big IF for many, but IF the OP wants the best audio surround processor he can buy and is not concerned with HD video (HDMI) switching (which can easily be handled by a separate switcher or a affordable video processor such as the DVDO Edge) then I highly recommend he consider the JBL Synthesis SDP-5, a clone of the Lexicon MC-8 (Lexicon no longer makes the MC-4 or 8). IMO Lexicon makes by far the best audio surround processors period, and I say this having owned many other high end units prior to owning a Lexicion-built JBL Synthesis AV-1 (MC-4). I don't recommend the Lex/JBL models with HDMI switching other than the flaghsip Lex MC-12HD or JBL Synthesis SDP-40HD, as they are not true Lexicon models - they are made by Harman/Kardon (good but not Lexicon). New SDP-5s (JBL) can be purchased at several dealers at a good discount that fall within the OP's budget, or used Lexicon MC-4 and MC-8 models are readily available at Audiogon and eBay for around $1K or less. You might even find a good SDP-40HD on eBay for $2,500 if you are lucky.

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A simple "gee thanks for that bit of information" might be better suited IMO.Bill

If you must know, In my opinion, the comment was cheeky, ill directed and not deserving of a thank-you. A suggestion, how about discussing issues and not me.

Wonk

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Also so that you would not be directing people to online resellers that are still selling the 4311 for much more than others are.

Instead of subterfuge, be upfront about your behavior as even to this moment, I'm comfortable with my recommendations as it's obvious you missed the part about giving them a call and see what kind of deal can be worked out. Sounds like a few here are in need of drama in their online lives as opposed to giving requested advice. I don't do well with one telling me to be their online robot. Please, to all, if you want drama, don't post to me and I will do the same. That would be kind of you as obviously, I'm not your kind of person.

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BeeMan58, if you go back and reread the part of your post (posted below), where you suggested that "you could get ten or fifteen percent knocked off list", I think you'll see where the guys directed their comments at you. Look again... you used the word "list". List price is already being beat by 25% and more by some vendors. You used 10 to 15%. Does he need to call? Yes! But, his starting point isn't "list", and he sould be looking for more than 25%. That's all they were trying to get across to you. Don't take offense! Their intent, as is yours, is to inform not to offend.

"Give a place like Crutchfield or Vann's a call and see what kind of phone deal you can work out. I'd expect you could get ten or fifteen percent knocked off list and get UPS two-day shipping thrown into the deal or on the cheap, get next day thrown in as everybody here seems to be herding you towards the AVR4311CI."
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petaylor, thank-you for the thought.
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post #45 of 57 Old 07-09-2012, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Quote:
If you must know, In my opinion, the comment was cheeky, ill directed and not deserving of a thank-you. A suggestion, how about discussing issues and not me.

If you must know it seems you are more interested in arguing than carrying on a discussion about A/V components in general.
Quote:
Instead of subterfuge, be upfront about your behavior as even to this moment, I'm comfortable with my recommendations as it's obvious you missed the part about giving them a call and see what kind of deal can be worked out.

Yeah well OK Slick I'll make sure I'm upfront about my behavior in the future wink.gif. I quoted your post directly about "giving them a call and see what kind of deal can be worked out" apparently you missed that rolleyes.gif.
Quote:
Sounds like a few here are in need of drama in their online lives as opposed to giving requested advice. I don't do well with one telling me to be their online robot. Please, to all, if you want drama, don't post to me and I will do the same. That would be kind of you as obviously, I'm not your kind of person.

The above is priceless biggrin.gif. It seems the only one in need of drama is yourself or otherwise you would have let it go by now. As I said earlier you are new here and already you are telling people what to do and when to do it. I had no intention of making you or anyone my "online robot". But one thing you are 100% correct about is that you are not my type of person. That would be I'm sure in person or online.

If you wish to carry on this discussion which is totally off the topic of this thread feel free to PM anytime smile.gif.

Bill


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Bill Mac wrote: "If you must know it seems you are more interested in arguing than carrying on a discussion about A/V components in general."

My comments are directed to the question the original poster posted. My interest is interacting with the original poster. You not posting to me is a solution and I'll do the same.
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post #47 of 57 Old 07-10-2012, 06:42 AM
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John,

Did you make a decision on which prepro/AVR you are buying? Just curious smile.gif.

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post #48 of 57 Old 07-14-2012, 01:41 PM - Thread Starter
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John,
Did you make a decision on which prepro/AVR you are buying? Just curious smile.gif.
Bill


Bill,

After a truly massive amount of research, and comparing some equipment I had access to, I know one thing clearly. I would like an AVR that has the THX rated class D amplifiers of the top Pioneer Elite series, the build quality of the Yamaha Aventage series, the the video processing of an Onkyo 5009, and the currently available price and reliability of the Denon 4311ci. .And Audyssey XT32, of course.

I'm very close to an actual decision and leaning towards the Onkyo 5009, or possibly even a 3009, dependent on the best available deals out there. I realize there have been some significant reliability issues with Onkyo AVR's in recent years, but all of my research, including talking to dealers with muitiple lines, seems to indicate that the problems were addressed in the x009 series.


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post #49 of 57 Old 07-14-2012, 01:56 PM
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Just be aware if you go to the new Onkyo models, they have dropped even more connections on the 3010 and 5010 models! No more multi-channel inputs for one.
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post #50 of 57 Old 07-14-2012, 07:12 PM
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Bill,
After a truly massive amount of research, and comparing some equipment I had access to, I know one thing clearly. I would like an AVR that has the THX rated class D amplifiers of the top Pioneer Elite series, the build quality of the Yamaha Aventage series, the the video processing of an Onkyo 5009, and the currently available price and reliability of the Denon 4311ci. .And Audyssey XT32, of course.
I'm very close to an actual decision and leaning towards the Onkyo 5009, or possibly even a 3009, dependent on the best available deals out there. I realize there have been some significant reliability issues with Onkyo AVR's in recent years, but all of my research, including talking to dealers with muitiple lines, seems to indicate that the problems were addressed in the x009 series.
John

John,

I think either the 5009 or the 3009 would be excellent choices smile.gif. With the fact that you will using either as a prepro I would lean towards the 3009. The better amp section of the 5009 would be wasted as you will be using an external amp. The DACs in the 5009 are supposed to be better than the 3009 but will it be a clearly audible difference? As far as other differences between the 5009 and the 3009 that I'm not sure. A friend has the 3008 and he is using it as a prepro. I think it sounds excellent for both music and movies.

Bill


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post #51 of 57 Old 07-14-2012, 09:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

John,
I think either the 5009 or the 3009 would be excellent choices smile.gif. With the fact that you will using either as a prepro I would lean towards the 3009. The better amp section of the 5009 would be wasted as you will be using an external amp. The DACs in the 5009 are supposed to be better than the 3009 but will it be a clearly audible difference? As far as other differences between the 5009 and the 3009 that I'm not sure. A friend has the 3008 and he is using it as a prepro. I think it sounds excellent for both music and movies.
Bill

Same exact advice I gave him. I'm using a 3009 as well. smile.gif

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post #52 of 57 Old 07-15-2012, 07:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Turns out that the problem I've been dealing with is acually the Onkyo Pro 886 pre-pro. After swapping a lot of amplification channels I realized I was experiencing dropouts in both content from my cable box/dvr, and my Oppo. All the more reason to purchase an AVR. I think I will now move to an 11.2 channel surround system, and utilize four channels of the receiver. For that reason, I will likely need the extra power of the Onkyo 5009. I'm looking forward to this/


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post #53 of 57 Old 07-16-2012, 07:32 AM
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The 5009 is not a bad route to go smile.gif

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post #54 of 57 Old 07-16-2012, 09:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

The 5009 is not a bad route to go smile.gif


Thanks Joe, and Bill, and all. I'm pretty certain that I will go with the 5009. The only drawback is that I just learned that it is only capable of 9.1/9.2 surround and not 11.1/11.2, which I was getting a little excited about implementing. Not sure if just adding two front, "height" speakers will do much by itself in 9.1. The only AVR I have yet found that offers 11.1 or 11.2, is the Yamaha 3010, and I just can't go there because of the limitations of YPAO. XT32 is simply far beyond that from all I've read.


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post #55 of 57 Old 07-16-2012, 11:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Clark View Post

Thanks Joe, and Bill, and all. I'm pretty certain that I will go with the 5009. The only drawback is that I just learned that it is only capable of 9.1/9.2 surround and not 11.1/11.2, which I was getting a little excited about implementing. Not sure if just adding two front, "height" speakers will do much by itself in 9.1. ,The only AVR I have yet found that offers 11.1 or 11.2, is the Yamaha 3010 and I just can't go there because of the limitations of YPAO. XT32 is simply far beyond that from all I've read.
John

The Denon 4311 does as well. Is there a reason you scratched it off the list?

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post #56 of 57 Old 07-17-2012, 09:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudda View Post

The Denon 4311 does as well. Is there a reason you scratched it off the list?
Chris

The 4311ci is a fine product, and a tremendous value at the moment. However, I've discussed it with two extremely knowledgeable home theater people, who have had both the 4311 and the 3009 or 5009 in their homes to compare, and the Onkyo's simply have better video processing, which is important to me.


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post #57 of 57 Old 07-17-2012, 09:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Also, I'm considering moving to an Onkyo 5010 from the new series, about to release any day now, since it offers 11.4 channel pre-outs, and support for 11.4 channel DTS Neo-X. It will depend on the pricing of the new units vs the current pricing of the 5009. But I would really like the 11 channel surround option.


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