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post #1 of 25 Old 07-09-2012, 02:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi,

Over the weekend, my Denon AVR-4308's HDMI output died. It'll stay on for about 10 minutes after turning on but then disconnects from all devices after it warms up. So now I'm in the market for a new receiver and am debating between the Denon 4311 ($1260) or the Pioneer Elite SC-67 ($1679). I know both are really good receivers but I want to make sure I make the right choice for my setup. I currently have Triad Silver LCR for my fronts and then Polk Audio for the rear surrounds and sub. My question is, which receiver will work best with my Triad speakers? Right now I'm leaning towards the Pioneer since it has Apple Airplay for free (Denon needs an upgrade to work), 4k to 2k ready and the iPhone/iPad app that works really well. But those two options are just minor stuff, I'm more concern about the sound quality. I watch a lot of movies from PS3 and DirecTV so if you can help me choose then it would be much appreciated.

Thanks,
Dom
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post #2 of 25 Old 07-09-2012, 02:32 PM
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For the best sound quality, the Cambridge Audio 650R receiver is far superior to all of the others on the market, regardless of price.

I suggest that you read the Home Theater magazine review of it; it is readily available online.

It is normally available for around $1600. Amazon has it for that price now. At that price, it is a bargain, since it easily outperforms many receivers that sell for around $3000.
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post #3 of 25 Old 07-09-2012, 02:34 PM
 
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"It'll stay on for about 10 minutes after turning on but then disconnects from all devices after it warms up."

I hate it when that happens. Usually a crack in a soldering joint does that.

"My question is, which receiver will work best with my Triad speakers?"

As to the receiver, it's sounds like you're buying a lot of receiver you won't use for a 5.1, cable provided video viewing experience. Your logic for the 4311 and the SC-67, besides they're a really good receiver and the Pioneer has Apple Airplay is.....? The reason I ask, it reads like you're buying far more receiver than you need in the 4311 and the SC-67. If those are your choice you want, I support your decision but a Denon 2313CI or Marantz SR 5007 will do you, your room and your 5.1 speakers just fine with room to grow; future proof.
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post #4 of 25 Old 07-09-2012, 02:49 PM - Thread Starter
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BeeMan - Thank you for your response. The reason I'm going with those receivers is because they are the best 4ohm rated receivers. According to Triad's specs, my speakers are 4ohm rated. In addition, I'm planning to setup a gaming room (Xbox 360 & PS3) in the living room and hoping to use the extra power for the second zone.
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post #5 of 25 Old 07-09-2012, 03:26 PM
 
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Yikes! Why 4 ohm speakers and not 8 ohm? I realize the question is moot as those are the speakers you have but 4 ohm? confused.gifsmile.gif

Took some time to make some calls. Marantz, on the East Coast is closed. I'm on the West Coast gave the Marantz repair shop in Sacramento a call. Also gave Triad a call, (both shops were very, very cooperative) but couldn't get an answer as to your 4 ohm requirement and both worked with me to try and find an answer. The basic suggestion was, give your choice in receiver manufacture a call to see what corporate tech-support has to say on the transformer/ohm rating issue. In the case of Marantz, the SR5007 is rated to 6 ohm but no mention of a 4 ohm rating as it was suggested that the SR5007 might see 4 ohms as a short.

I see from the 4311 spec sheet that it can handle a 4 ohm speaker.

http://usa.denon.com/DocumentMaster/US/AVR-4311CI-OM-E_108.pdf

If you haven't already, see pg 139; dynamic power and output connectors heading.

Most upper end units will adequately handle a second zone unless you plan on blasting the place.

Personally, I don't believe in trying to drive second zones and prefer having a separate, less expensive receiver in the second zone, even if just for music purposes.

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post #6 of 25 Old 07-09-2012, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rednyle View Post

Hi,
Over the weekend, my Denon AVR-4308's HDMI output died. It'll stay on for about 10 minutes after turning on but then disconnects from all devices after it warms up. So now I'm in the market for a new receiver and am debating between the Denon 4311 ($1260) or the Pioneer Elite SC-67 ($1679). I know both are really good receivers but I want to make sure I make the right choice for my setup. I currently have Triad Silver LCR for my fronts and then Polk Audio for the rear surrounds and sub. My question is, which receiver will work best with my Triad speakers? Right now I'm leaning towards the Pioneer since it has Apple Airplay for free (Denon needs an upgrade to work), 4k to 2k ready and the iPhone/iPad app that works really well. But those two options are just minor stuff, I'm more concern about the sound quality. I watch a lot of movies from PS3 and DirecTV so if you can help me choose then it would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
Dom

FYI, Denon provides a free upgrade for Airplay via ethernet connection. Quick and painless too.

I switched from Pioneer's flagship, the SC-09tx to the 4311 and couldn't be happier. If nothing else, you get Audyssey XT32. The SC-67 uses MCACC which is now very long in the tooth. It won't EQ below 63 Hz so if you have troubles with room modes (doesn't everyone?) you'll need an outboard eq device for your subs with the Pioneer. The iDevice app with the Pioneer is supposed to be really good but if sonics are your priority I'd look elsewhere.

Chris
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post #7 of 25 Old 07-09-2012, 08:19 PM
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Two important things to keep in mind - upgrade for AirPlay on the 4311 is free and easy to do. Even more important is you have XT32 with the Denon - the Elite has no correction offered for the sub. Put the two next together and a/b the room correction systems and you will join the always growing list go former Elite owners who have bought the 4311. Yes, the difference is that substantial. I still have my Elite - its resting for now.
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post #8 of 25 Old 07-10-2012, 03:15 AM
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To add to what has already been suggested re: 4311CI (Audyssey MultEQ XT32 being the biggest reason), the 4311CI should be able to drive your Triads without issue. Several 4311CI owners with 4-ohm speakers have posted in the Owner's thread being able to drop the use of their external amp when upgrading to the 4311CI.

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post #9 of 25 Old 07-10-2012, 07:58 AM
 
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Just got off the phone with Marantz tech-support. The comment was, "all" their gear is UL tested/approved at 6-16 ohm but is 4 ohm stable. The caveat was to keep below reference levels of 81dB and to make sure you have four or five inches above the receiver cabinet for heat ventilation or the unit will heat up and shut down. It was also recommended to get a Niles Audio Corporation exhaust fan module to assist in heat removal when running 4 ohm speakers or at least, make sure there's plenty of cabinet ventilation.

Hope the above helps.

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post #10 of 25 Old 07-10-2012, 08:22 AM
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OR...you could get a Cambridge 650R receiver which will drive SEVEN 4-ohm speakers at 100 watts ON ALL SEVEN channels at once, all day, and never even get warm. No other receiver even comes close.

It has a 1400-watt power supply, whereas almost all Japanese receivers have 500-600 watts total power supply capability (at most). The basic problem is that the audio amplifiers and power supply of the Marantz are under-engineered junk; the advice of their own tech people proves it (add a fan and maybe you can keep it from burning up or shutting down...swell...wonderful...lol). What crap!

The Cambridge has unequalled power and sound quality, and for $1600 is an absolute steal. Anyone who reads the Home Theater review article on it will quickly understand that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Just got off the phone with Marantz tech-support. The comment was, "all" their gear is UL tested/approved at 6-16 ohm but is 4 ohm stable. The caveat was to keep below reference levels of 81dB and to make sure you have four or five inches above the receiver cabinet for heat ventilation or the unit will heat up and shut down. It was also recommended to get a Niles Audio Corporation exhaust fan module to assist in heat removal when running 4 ohm speakers or at least, make sure there's plenty of cabinet ventilation.
Hope the above helps.
-
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post #11 of 25 Old 07-10-2012, 08:32 AM
 
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"It has a 1400-watt power supply,..."

Doesn't leave much for anything else on a 15A circuit.

(When you list Southern California High Desert, are you Owens Valley? Went through Death Valley and out through Owens Valley, down and out through the Tahachipis, March this year)

You mentioned heat, cooling and engineering. Was this what you were referring to?

http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/assets/documents/650R-Reverse.jpg

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post #12 of 25 Old 07-10-2012, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rednyle View Post

Hi,
Over the weekend, my Denon AVR-4308's HDMI output died. It'll stay on for about 10 minutes after turning on but then disconnects from all devices after it warms up. So now I'm in the market for a new receiver and am debating between the Denon 4311 ($1260) or the Pioneer Elite SC-67 ($1679). I know both are really good receivers but I want to make sure I make the right choice for my setup. I currently have Triad Silver LCR for my fronts and then Polk Audio for the rear surrounds and sub. My question is, which receiver will work best with my Triad speakers? Right now I'm leaning towards the Pioneer since it has Apple Airplay for free (Denon needs an upgrade to work), 4k to 2k ready and the iPhone/iPad app that works really well. But those two options are just minor stuff, I'm more concern about the sound quality. I watch a lot of movies from PS3 and DirecTV so if you can help me choose then it would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
Dom

Where do you see Dnon 4311 pricing at $1260? What site has it at that price?
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post #13 of 25 Old 07-10-2012, 08:44 AM
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That is true, although it is unlikely to actually draw 1400 watts, and 15A x !20V is 1800 watts. The point is that it has huge reserves, so it can be driven hard and run cool.

Joshua Tree is my area; quite a ways south of the Owens Valley area.

The typical Japanese receiver really only has about 300-400 watts available to supply the audio circuits on peaks. The Cambridge has nearly 1000 watts available; big big difference.

That is why Japanese receivers only give power ratings for one or two channels simultaneously, while the Cambridge says it can drive ALL SEVEN CHANNELS at the full 100 watts simultaneously.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

"It has a 1400-watt power supply,..."
Doesn't leave much for anything else on a 15A circuit.
(When you list Southern California High Desert, are you Owens Valley? Went through Death Valley and out through Owens Valley, down and out through the Tahachipis, March this year)
You mentioned heat, cooling and engineering. Was this what you were referring to?
http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/assets/documents/650R-Reverse.jpg
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post #14 of 25 Old 07-10-2012, 08:45 AM
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I'm in the market too and have been looking at eh Denon AVR4311CI. Some others are the Onkyo PR-SC5508, TX-NR5010, TX-NR3010, TX-NR5009, Marantz AV7005, MM7055, MM7025. That Cambridge Audio 650R is sexy, but it doesn't seem to have some of the features of the ones I've listed. Also it looks like it only does 1.3 HDMI which I would like 1.4, but I guess wouldn't be a deal breaker. I just wish it had Audyssey MultiEQ XT32 with the Sub EQ or whatever it is called.

Denon AVR-4311CI, AudioControl Savoy G3||| Axiom Audio M80v3, M22v3, VP180, & QS8's||| Zaph|Audio ZA5.5tt, ZA5.3t's||| SVS PB12-NSD Sub, DIY PWK Designed TC-Sounds 18 Aperiodic Sub|||= 11.2 Surround
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post #15 of 25 Old 07-10-2012, 10:00 AM - Thread Starter
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BeeMan - Thank you so much for putting in the effort to call all those places, I really appreciate it.

I was about to pull the trigger on the Pioneer this morning until I read all the new posts that came in. Now I'm leaning toward the 4311CI. Are there any Pioneer Elite SC-55 or SC-57 owners that would like to comment?

Alour - You need to call Electronic Expo to get that price. It's listed on their site for $2099 but if you call in, they will give it to you for $1260 shipped.
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post #16 of 25 Old 07-10-2012, 10:04 AM
 
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"Joshua Tree is my area; quite a ways south of the Owens Valley area."

In late October, we'll be going by your neck of the woods to Yuma via Hwy 395, Palm Springs, past the Salton Sea and out onto Hwy 8 via El Centro. March of next year, we're looking forward to our planned stay in Borrego Springs. Big vacationing fan of your neck of the California woods. We're in Northern California, in the mountains above and East of Chico.

Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

That is true, although it is unlikely to actually draw 1400 watts, and 15A x !20V is 1800 watts. The point is that it has huge reserves, so it can be driven hard and run cool.

The typical Japanese receiver really only has about 300-400 watts available to supply the audio circuits on peaks. The Cambridge has nearly 1000 watts available; big big difference.
That is why Japanese receivers only give power ratings for one or two channels simultaneously, while the Cambridge says it can drive ALL SEVEN CHANNELS at the full 100 watts simultaneously.

There's no doubt the Azur 650R is a well engineered brick but a four hundred watt reserve isn't good. The reason, how many additional items are hooked up to that room's circuit breaker for simultaneous use? Unless a separate circuit, at that circuit demand wattage, one can easily overload the circuit when adding in, cable box/satellite dish, Blu-ray player, big screen TV, reading lights and who knows how many wall warts and video game consoles, On a separate circuit, agreed. there's no worry.

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post #17 of 25 Old 07-10-2012, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smurraybhm View Post

Two important things to keep in mind - upgrade for AirPlay on the 4311 is free and easy to do. Even more important is you have XT32 with the Denon - the Elite has no correction offered for the sub. Put the two next together and a/b the room correction systems and you will join the always growing list go former Elite owners who have bought the 4311. Yes, the difference is that substantial. I still have my Elite - its resting for now.

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Originally Posted by Hudda View Post


FYI, Denon provides a free upgrade for Airplay via ethernet connection. Quick and painless too.

I switched from Pioneer's flagship, the SC-09tx to the 4311 and couldn't be happier. If nothing else, you get Audyssey XT32. The SC-67 uses MCACC which is now very long in the tooth. It won't EQ below 63 Hz so if you have troubles with room modes (doesn't everyone?) you'll need an outboard eq device for your subs with the Pioneer. The iDevice app with the Pioneer is supposed to be really good but if sonics are your priority I'd look elsewhere.

Chris

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post #18 of 25 Old 07-10-2012, 10:15 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rednyle View Post

BeeMan - Thank you so much for putting in the effort to call all those places, I really appreciate it.

I'm retired and this type of effort helps stave off the affects of old age; dementia. Not saying I'm not a senile old goat for if I were, I'd wear that patch with pride. biggrin.gif

The point, my pleasure. smile.gif
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post #19 of 25 Old 07-12-2012, 09:07 PM
 
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As I'm sure you know, running a higher capacity circuit requires opening the walls up that run between the outlet and the breaker box to put in a run of larger gauge wire.

Sometimes it's worse then that as some municipalities say if you open up a wall, the whole wall needs to be brought up to existing code which includes windows and insulation.

"And with 4 Ohm speakers the level will be that much lower when it happens..."

The above throws me. As an example, dB is dB and my Klipsch horns are 100dB, 1w/m @ 8 ohm. What am I missing? confused.gif

With a 4 ohm speaker to output a 100dB as compared to an 8 ohm speaker. It sounds like I'm having to put out a boatload of amplifier effort when working with 4 ohm speakers.

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post #20 of 25 Old 07-12-2012, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jours View Post

To expand on this a bit... I just spent an afternoon A/B-ing a 650R, an Anthem MRX500, a Yamaha A2020, a Denon 4311 and a Rotel 1562. Speakers were B&W CM5s. I went in expecting to buy the Anthem and walked out with the 650R. The sound from the Cambridge and the Rotel were head an shoulders above the others, especially at higher levels, with the Cambridge winning largely on price. Its feature set is not that impressive (at least not beyond the essentials) but that was an easy trade off for us because we listen to music maybe 70% of the time. Since you're shopping in this price range the 650R is definitely worth a listen if you can find one.
More on your topic though I preferred the sound of the Yamaha to the Denon (and both to the Anthem.) The Yamaha will drive your Triads so that might be worth a look too.

Makes sense for a perfect living space, but in almost any real world space room correction (which Rotel does not have at all) is a big deal.
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post #21 of 25 Old 07-13-2012, 07:42 AM
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Does the Rotel RSX1560 or RSX 1562 have Audyssey XT or XT32? And if not, are they good enough receivers to overlook that? I can manually set them up with the iAudioInterface2 + Behringer ECM8000.

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post #22 of 25 Old 07-13-2012, 07:44 AM
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^^^

no. no.

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post #23 of 25 Old 07-13-2012, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
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^^^

no. no.

Too bad, the RSX 1662 is sexy. Not quit as sexy as the one Cambridge or Classe SSP-800.

It's looking more and more like I'll be going with the Denon 4311ci.

Denon AVR-4311CI, AudioControl Savoy G3||| Axiom Audio M80v3, M22v3, VP180, & QS8's||| Zaph|Audio ZA5.5tt, ZA5.3t's||| SVS PB12-NSD Sub, DIY PWK Designed TC-Sounds 18 Aperiodic Sub|||= 11.2 Surround
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post #24 of 25 Old 07-13-2012, 12:46 PM
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Missed this. biggrin.gif Yes, you ARE the pied piper!

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post #25 of 25 Old 06-15-2013, 12:50 PM
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I switched to azur 640r from Marantz sr5007.
OMG
Thanx to Cambridge I'm a real Marantz fan now.
Just reordered sr5007 back.
Marantz sr5007 has unbelievable performance.
Used it with Infinity Kappa 600
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